What exactly does a max contract mean?

[RedBulls23]

Does anyone know what the cap situation would be in 2021 IF the Bulls offered Malcolm the max? Would they be able offer even 1 max (33+ million) if they renounced Otto?

[cjbulls]

Does anyone know what the cap situation would be in 2021 IF the Bulls offered Malcolm the max? Would they be able offer even 1 max (33+ million) if they renounced Otto?

They cannot reach true max space if they max Brogdon and stretch Felicio. As a rough estimate, they would realistically have about $25 million in space

LaVine 19.5
Carter 6.9
White 5.6
Hutch 4.0
Next Years FRP 4
That Years FRP 3
Brogdon 29.9
Felicio Stretch 3.2
Markkanen Cap Hold 16.8
3 Roster Mins - 3

TOTAL - $95.9M

Projected 2021 Cap $121M

They can clear more cap by releasing Hutch sooner, or trading away the pics. But that at most clears about $8 million more.

By then a max for a player like Giannis is $35M. For a Ben Simmons it will probably be 29.5.

[panthermark]

Does anyone know what the cap situation would be in 2021 IF the Bulls offered Malcolm the max? Would they be able offer even 1 max (33+ million) if they renounced Otto?

Would depend on who else is on the roster in the summer of 2021

Zach would be at $19.5M
Lauri would have a larger cap hold..I think it would be 300% of his prior salary, so roughly $16M?
WCJr would be at $6.9M
Hutch would be at $4.0M
White would be at $5.5M? maybe...have not checked the new scale..would be a hair higher than what WCJr made in his 2nd year.
Gafford?
First round draft picks in 2020 and 2021.....maybe $9M assuming that at least one of them is NOT a lottery pick.

I think we would have enough......depends on Lauri and who else is on the roster.

With that said, what bugs me about the 2021 plan is that it limits who we can sign this year AND next year.

[panthermark]

Does anyone know what the cap situation would be in 2021 IF the Bulls offered Malcolm the max? Would they be able offer even 1 max (33+ million) if they renounced Otto?

They cannot reach true max space if they max Brogdon and stretch Felicio. As a rough estimate, they would realistically have about $25 million in space

LaVine 19.5
Carter 6.9
White 5.6
Hutch 4.0
Next Years FRP 4
That Years FRP 3
Brogdon 29.9
Felicio Stretch 3.2
Markkanen Cap Hold 16.8
3 Roster Mins - 3

TOTAL - $95.9M

Projected 2021 Cap $121M

They can clear more cap by releasing Hutch sooner, or trading away the pics. But that at most clears about $8 million more.

By then a max for a player like Giannis is $35M. For a Ben Simmons it will probably be 29.5.

Felicio should not be stretched, and I would actually be ticked if we offered Brogdon the full max. No way he should be making $30M at that point.

[RedBulls23]

Does anyone know what the cap situation would be in 2021 IF the Bulls offered Malcolm the max? Would they be able offer even 1 max (33+ million) if they renounced Otto?

They cannot reach true max space if they max Brogdon and stretch Felicio. As a rough estimate, they would realistically have about $25 million in space

LaVine 19.5
Carter 6.9
White 5.6
Hutch 4.0
Next Years FRP 4
That Years FRP 3
Brogdon 29.9
Felicio Stretch 3.2
Markkanen Cap Hold 16.8
3 Roster Mins - 3

TOTAL - $95.9M

Projected 2021 Cap $121M

They can clear more cap by releasing Hutch sooner, or trading away the pics. But that at most clears about $8 million more.

By then a max for a player like Giannis is $35M. For a Ben Simmons it will probably be 29.5.

Felicio should not be stretched, and I would actually be ticked if we offered Brogdon the full max. No way he should be making $30M at that point.

I agree, was just seeing what the numbers would look like.

[drosereturn]

4/100 is my top for him

Whats the difference btwn 25 and 27? Might as well give him 30 since paying already over 20 100% eliminates signing a max agent.

[cjbulls]

Does anyone know what the cap situation would be in 2021 IF the Bulls offered Malcolm the max? Would they be able offer even 1 max (33+ million) if they renounced Otto?

Would depend on who else is on the roster in the summer of 2021

Zach would be at $19.5M
Lauri would have a larger cap hold..I think it would be 300% of his prior salary, so roughly $16M?
WCJr would be at $6.9M
Hutch would be at $4.0M
White would be at $5.5M? maybe...have not checked the new scale..would be a hair higher than what WCJr made in his 2nd year.
Gafford?
First round draft picks in 2020 and 2021.....maybe $9M assuming that at least one of them is NOT a lottery pick.

I think we would have enough......depends on Lauri and who else is on the roster.

With that said, what bugs me about the 2021 plan is that it limits who we can sign this year AND next year.

Yeah, I think the 2021 plan should be renamed the 2020 and 2021 plan.

They could gain max cap space next year too with a few moves if Otto opts out, but realistically that means he played well and you want him back. Next year's FA class is also very old.

[cjbulls]

4/100 is my top for him

Whats the difference btwn 25 and 27? Might as well give him 30 since paying already over 20 100% eliminates signing a max agent.

As shown above, there comes a point where Brogdon's salary plus the moves you need to make to create that space cost you a max spot in 2021, even with letting Otto go.

[dougthonus]

Yes, but everyone should want the cap down the line and prefer to just pay off felicio ASAP. Bulls don’t really need that cap space this year or next. At that point, I prefer they just move Dunn even if it means including a 2nd over stretching felicio.

In a generic sense, I would agree that I would prefer to pay off Felicio as well. However, if I can stretch him to do something I think is valuable for the team then I don't mind stretching him. I do agree with your assessment that my preference would be to trade Dunn into cap space vs stretching Felicio if we got Brogdon since I think Dunn would have little use at that point anyway.

It is one more thing to consider of course when looking at when weighing Brogdon vs cheap guys. As you noted though, it isn't the only way. It was just one way I found you could trivially do it and know you could be successful without any involvement by any other teams that wouldn't hurt the talent on the roster and have minimal impact on the future, but moving Dunn would be preferable if bringing in Brogdon or D-Lo.

[panthermark]

Regardless of if we sign Brogdon or not.
One thing to keep in mind is that we are looking at Lauri's cap hold, not his expected new salary....and the following year WCJr gets a big raise and Zach becomes a free agent. Are we looking at a 2021-22 team that Uncle Jerry will pay a tax on if we re-sign Zach and WCJr, along with an older max FA?

It is so hard to predict because we don't know how much they will be worth.

[RedBulls23]

I may be flipping on signing Brogdon.

So if the Bulls are able to get him at 4 years 80-90 mill or something like that, and then still be able to keep a max slot open in 2021 by renouncing Porter (which Giannis is the only guy worth going after), I think you go for it.

Also having Brogdon who's close with Giannis, he could help recruit him here IF Giannis does end up wanting out of Milwaukee.

That only hinges on being able to keep a max slot open though.

[dougthonus]

It is so hard to predict because we don't know how much they will be worth.

I think you have to project both as max guys or in some ways you simply don't care. If either one is non-max worthy then you've failed the rebuild anyway, so from a planning perspective you plan for the worst case in terms of salary demands.

[cjbulls]

It is so hard to predict because we don't know how much they will be worth.

I think you have to project both as max guys or in some ways you simply don't care. If either one is non-max worthy then you've failed the rebuild anyway, so from a planning perspective you plan for the worst case in terms of salary demands.

If you take that mentality then they’re screwed. You would have max Lauri, max WCJ, newly maxed LaVine, near max Brogdon, and newly maxed 2021 FA. They’d put the Warriors to shame!

[cjbulls]

I may be flipping on signing Brogdon.

So if the Bulls are able to get him at 4 years 80-90 mill or something like that, and then still be able to keep a max slot open in 2021 by renouncing Porter (which Giannis is the only guy worth going after), I think you go for it.

Also having Brogdon who's close with Giannis, he could help recruit him here IF Giannis does end up wanting out of Milwaukee.

That only hinges on being able to keep a max slot open though.

There are a bunch of potential (I repeat, potential) FAs in 2021

Kawhi (if he does Raps 1+1)
LeBron
Giannis
AD
Paul George
Lillard
Beal
Westbrook
Gobert
Ben Simmons
Jaylen Brown
Brandon Ingram
Jamal Murray
Buddy Hield
Domantas Sabonis
Caris LeVert
Pascal Siakim
Dejounte Murray
Donovan Mitchell (RFA)
Jayson Tatum (RFA)
DeAron Fox (RFA)
Jonathan Isaac (RFA)
Zach Collins (RFA)
John Collins (RFA)

A host of other players we don’t expect just like we didn’t expect Brogdon or Russell to be high end players.

[MrSparkle]

Max for Brogdon is crazy. If he's that good, then that means he's all-star caliber, and Milwaukee will pay him and the tax penalty, cause they were 2 wins away from the finals, and you don't let a prime star walk.

Dunno what kind of koo-koo juice you guys are drinking. Bulls just drafted a top-3 PG prospect and have a star SG - they have a starting backcourt. Brogdon played most his minutes at SG last year. Nice that he's a combo guard, but that is a position you fill with a late pick (like Brogdon was) or with chunks of that $22m in free agency.

If they drafted a wing I'd entertain the idea, but what on earth? You want to pay a potential backup max money? Did I see someone say 'let Otto walk?'

If Coby does not turn out to be a good player, then I don't have time for a Brogdon/Zach back-court. That'd be another blunder for GarPax. They need Coby to be good, because they didn't have to draft him. There were trade options and different intriguing picks on the board. I want to see Coby starting this October.

If they sign a PG, it should be a bargain bin old guy. Since Beverley is looking for starter money, I'm about done with that idea. I wouldn't approach him early, but if Rose can't get the number he wants, I'd go to him in the middle of July and offer 18/2, or even 12m/1y.

[RedBulls23]

I may be flipping on signing Brogdon.

So if the Bulls are able to get him at 4 years 80-90 mill or something like that, and then still be able to keep a max slot open in 2021 by renouncing Porter (which Giannis is the only guy worth going after), I think you go for it.

Also having Brogdon who's close with Giannis, he could help recruit him here IF Giannis does end up wanting out of Milwaukee.

That only hinges on being able to keep a max slot open though.

There are a bunch of potential (I repeat, potential) FAs in 2021

Kawhi (if he does Raps 1+1)
LeBron
Giannis
AD
Paul George
Lillard
Beal
Westbrook
Gobert
Ben Simmons
Jaylen Brown
Brandon Ingram
Jamal Murray
Buddy Hield
Domantas Sabonis
Caris LeVert
Pascal Siakim
Dejounte Murray
Donovan Mitchell (RFA)
Jayson Tatum (RFA)
DeAron Fox (RFA)
Jonathan Isaac (RFA)
Zach Collins (RFA)
John Collins (RFA)

A host of other players we don’t expect just like we didn’t expect Brogdon or Russell to be high end players.

Kawhi might also take a full 4 year or 5 year deal.

LeBron, no thanks. He'll be 37 and even and he's not coming here. It's been reported that Lillard and the Blazers plan on doing a 4 year supermax extention. I think AD is taking a 5 year next season so he'll be off the market.

Most of the players that are intriguing that you listed are on Brodgons level or their respective teams aren't going to let go of.

My point is the only player worth the 6+ year max that will be a free agent for sure is Giannis (other guys I don't think will, or I'm not interested in like LeBron). And even if the Bulls don't land him, they will still have the cap space to go after one of the other guys you listed.

All in all I'm still thinking things over, but in a scenario where the Bulls still have a max slot open it could make sense to go after Brogdon now. Tbh, I'm not convinced one way or another. I'm mostly just thinking out loud.

[dougthonus]

It is so hard to predict because we don't know how much they will be worth.

I think you have to project both as max guys or in some ways you simply don't care. If either one is non-max worthy then you've failed the rebuild anyway, so from a planning perspective you plan for the worst case in terms of salary demands.

If you take that mentality then they’re screwed. You would have max Lauri, max WCJ, newly maxed LaVine, near max Brogdon, and newly maxed 2021 FA. They’d put the Warriors to shame!

You aren't going to get a 2021 maxed FA if you have these guys and Brogdon.

Your timing looks like:
Brogdon 19-20, 20-21, 21-22, 22-23
LaVine 19-20, 20-21, 21-22
Lauri 21-22, 22-23, 23-24, 24-25, 25-26
WCJ 22,23, 23-24, 24-25, 25-26, 26-27, 27-28
White 23-24, 24-25, 25-26, 26-27, 27-28
2021FA 21-22, 22-23, 23-24, 24-25

So salary wise say LaVine, Lauri, WCJ, and White are all amazing and the core of a championship team. You have never have more than four heavy salary guys at once. Brogdon rolls off the same time that White rolls on. If you roll with cap room in 21 instead of Brogdon and your guys are all good, then you're actually in greater salary danger as you will have White, WCJ, Lauri, and LaVine all with big contracts with that 2021 FA.

I think you can plan to pay 4 dudes and have other roll players and be a minor tax team if you're good enough to compete for a title, this scenario generally allows that to happen. It's also more likely than not that these guys won't all end up that good, but if they do the salary synergy is not bad. 2021 FA is a bigger risk to not being able to pay everyone if the home run scenario happens and everyone is worth it.

If you plan on being a title caliber team without paying the tax then you better have a couple young generational superstars on their early max contracts otherwise you're pretty screwed, and there really is no way to obtain that position (if there was, every team would choose it).

[panthermark]

Max for Brogdon is crazy. If he's that good, then that means he's all-star caliber, and Milwaukee will pay him and the tax penalty, cause they were 2 wins away from the finals, and you don't let a prime star walk.

Dunno what kind of koo-koo juice you guys are drinking. Bulls just drafted a top-3 PG prospect and have a star SG - they have a starting backcourt. Brogdon played most his minutes at SG last year. Nice that he's a combo guard, but that is a position you fill with a late pick (like Brogdon was) or with chunks of that $22m in free agency.

If they drafted a wing I'd entertain the idea, but what on earth? You want to pay a potential backup max money? Did I see someone say 'let Otto walk?'

If Coby does not turn out to be a good player, then I don't have time for a Brogdon/Zach back-court. That'd be another blunder for GarPax. They need Coby to be good, because they didn't have to draft him. There were trade options and different intriguing picks on the board. I want to see Coby starting this October.

If they sign a PG, it should be a bargain bin old guy. Since Beverley is looking for starter money, I'm about done with that idea. I wouldn't approach him early, but if Rose can't get the number he wants, I'd go to him in the middle of July and offer 18/2, or even 12m/1y.

I don't want to see Coby starting this October (unless he is simply amazing this pre-season...and there is always a rookie wall).
He played one year of PG in college....and this particular team needs wins.
I do want to see him get good minutes backing up both guard spots however.

If we don't land Brogdon, I still like Collison. I don't like the DV issue....but PG's that fit our "style" are in high demand and he is probably the best pure fit of all the people we are looking at..Brogdon and PBev included.

[cjbulls]

I think you have to project both as max guys or in some ways you simply don't care. If either one is non-max worthy then you've failed the rebuild anyway, so from a planning perspective you plan for the worst case in terms of salary demands.

If you take that mentality then they’re screwed. You would have max Lauri, max WCJ, newly maxed LaVine, near max Brogdon, and newly maxed 2021 FA. They’d put the Warriors to shame!

You aren't going to get a 2021 maxed FA if you have these guys and Brogdon.

Your timing looks like:
Brogdon 19-20, 20-21, 21-22, 22-23
LaVine 19-20, 20-21, 21-22
Lauri 21-22, 22-23, 23-24, 24-25, 25-26
WCJ 22,23, 23-24, 24-25, 25-26, 26-27, 27-28
White 23-24, 24-25, 25-26, 26-27, 27-28
2021FA 21-22, 22-23, 23-24, 24-25

So salary wise say LaVine, Lauri, WCJ, and White are all amazing and the core of a championship team. You have never have more than four heavy salary guys at once. Brogdon rolls off the same time that White rolls on. If you roll with cap room in 21 instead of Brogdon and your guys are all good, then you're actually in greater salary danger as you will have White, WCJ, Lauri, and LaVine all with big contracts with that 2021 FA.

I think you can plan to pay 4 dudes and have other roll players and be a minor tax team if you're good enough to compete for a title, this scenario generally allows that to happen. It's also more likely than not that these guys won't all end up that good, but if they do the salary synergy is not bad. 2021 FA is a bigger risk to not being able to pay everyone if the home run scenario happens and everyone is worth it.

If you plan on being a title caliber team without paying the tax then you better have a couple young generational superstars on their early max contracts otherwise you're pretty screwed, and there really is no way to obtain that position (if there was, every team would choose it).

Look at 22-23, with Zach RE-upped for the max you’d have him, brogdon, Lauri, WCJ and FA all on max. It would literally be the highest salary team in league history. Of course this scenario is somewhat unrealistic, but it shows how Brogdon limits you.

[dougthonus]

Look at 22-23, with Zach RE-upped for the max you’d have him, brogdon, Lauri, WCJ and FA all on max. It would literally be the highest salary team in league history. Of course this scenario is somewhat unrealistic, but it shows how Brogdon limits you.

As I said very explicitly, 2021 FA/Brogdon is an "or" not an "and" relationship. You can't get both. If you have Brogdon you do not have cap room for that guy in 2021.

If you work with the idea is the most you can pay is 4 (especially with 3 of the 4 being on early max not late maxes) then Brogdon + your core never violates that while 2021 FA + your core does. If your core is all successful, that 2021 FA means you are paying 5 or you are letting someone go.

This might of course be just fine if that 2021 FA is Giannis, and as I noted the odds of all of your young guys developing that well are very low.