Gilbert Arenas and Lou Williams with shots fired on 90's and 70's eras

[chitownsports4ever]

Staunch "the NBA was tougher back then" proponents have to admit that back then there were a plethora of the role player guys on teams that wouldn't even make it into D2 teams today.

Most of those " role player" were 4 year college with many of them being all Americans . Is there more talent to choose from now than in previous decades ? of course but just like in previous decades it takes more than just talent.

Back then there were grown men who knew how to play and had been in numerous pressure situations that could come in be coached and execute game plans . The nba now is so watered down outside from a few teams its crazy as you have a roster of 6-7 guys that can play and then the rest are simply young guys you have to teach how to play basketball for several years which are things they used to learn in college .

Its basically a situation where over decades low athleticism/high IQ + skill have been replaced with low IQ/high athleticism + skill and teams are now more willing to to wait and see if a person with low IQ can learn how to play the game .

[Archerbro]

odd thing about this thread. 2011 wasn't that long ago. It's pretty clear both Pippen and Rodman could defend him. Now i do have my reserves on how Rodman would fare due to his lack of offense, but ultimately he'd probably just be playing as an undersized 5 in today's game.

[Najee12]

What’s hilarious is them laughing at GP being a defensive stopper because he’s little and the best defensive free agent right now is Patrick Beverly.

The more ridiculous part about it is that Gary Payton is 6-foot-4, which is taller than Gilbert Arenas (6-3) and Lou Williams (6-1), a pair of undersized shooting guards. Not to mention Payton has a 6-9 wingspan, which means Payton would have engulfed a player Williams' size.

Obviously, Arenas and Williams don't understand the difference in athletes today vs. 20 years and 40 years ago are the advances in exercise science and nutrition, not human evolution. Put Arenas in the 1970s and his career would have been over even faster than it was when he tore his MCL in 2007; surgery back then meant doctors likely would have cut on his leg and taken out ligaments hatchet job-style. The "bigger, stronger" comment really is bizarre when there are 6-foot-1 shooting guards playing in the NBA in 2019 (Williams). I grew up watching a 6-9 point guard (Magic Johnson) dominate the league.

I don't understand the Scottie Pippen comments at all. If anything, Pippen is the archetype for the modern NBA wing player: a 6-8 small forward with a 7-3 wingspan, athletic, can handle the ball and pass like a point guard, an elite defender in the passing lanes and stay in front of all perimeter positions, score, great transition scorer. Pippen has the same dimensions as Kawhi Leonard and a longer wingspan than Paul George.

And Dennis Rodman was incredibly athletic and flexible, from his Detroit days until his first season in Chicago. Rodman also has a 7-3 wingspan, which allowed him to grab all of those rebounds. At his peak, Rodman literally could guard all five positions. In an NBA where teams shoot 3-point shots and spread out the floor, Rodman would be a major rebounder even more than he was (especially on the offensive boards, now that teams spend more time guarding out to the 3-point line).

If anything, Pippen, Rodman and Michael Jordan as defenders were the early versions of the switching, near positionless style of basketball playing style that is so prominent today. But then, Arenas is the same person who helped derail his career by getting into an argument with a teammate over a card game and bringing guns into the locker room.

[Najee12]

I guess Gilbert Arenas forgot about when he faced Gary Payton in his second NBA season (GP was in his 13th) during the 2002-03 season:

Nov. 11, 2002, Golden State vs. Seattle:

Arenas (Golden State): 19 PTS, 11 AST
Payton (Seattle): 26 PTS, 10 AST (Seattle wins, 106-93)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200211010GSW.html

Jan. 28, 2003, Golden State vs. Seattle:

Arenas: 28 PTS, 5 AST
Payton: 20 PTS, 7 AST (Seattle wins, 91-88)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200301280SEA.html

March 8, 2003, Golden State vs. Milwaukee (Seattle traded GP to Milwaukee for Ray Allen)

Arenas: 30 PTS, 7 AST
Payton: 28 PTS, 10 AST (Milwaukee wins, 138-133)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303080MIL.html

Arenas is a clown who constantly wants attention (hence the outrageous comments), hoping people don't do research and take his word at face value. No wonder he washed out of the league and was unplayable by his 20s; his career essentially was over at 25 and his buffoonery played a major part in it.

[johanliebert]

I guess Gilbert Arenas forgot about when he faced Gary Payton in his second NBA season (GP was in his 13th) during the 2002-03 season:

Nov. 11, 2002, Golden State vs. Seattle:

Arenas (Golden State): 19 PTS, 11 AST
Payton (Seattle): 26 PTS, 10 AST (Seattle wins, 106-93)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200211010GSW.html

Jan. 28, 2003, Golden State vs. Seattle:

Arenas: 28 PTS, 5 AST
Payton: 20 PTS, 7 AST (Seattle wins, 91-88)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200301280SEA.html

March 8, 2003, Golden State vs. Milwaukee (Seattle traded GP to Milwaukee for Ray Allen)

Arenas: 30 PTS, 7 AST
Payton: 28 PTS, 10 AST (Milwaukee wins, 138-133)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303080MIL.html

Arenas is a clown who constantly wants attention (hence the outrageous comments), hoping people don't do research and take his word at face value. No wonder he washed out of the league in his 20s; his career essentially was over at 25 and his buffoonery played a major part in it.

Career ended at 25 with a knee injury.

And tbh youre the clown here cause you clearly didnt watch the video. He said he was intimidated his first season matched up with gary..it was during his 2nd where he said he realized he had a size advantage and killed gp a guy known to be a great defender.

What exactly did you research? All you did was suppoet arenas claims then get on your high horse.

[johanliebert]

Gilbert Arenas was a loser and Lou is a one trick pony.

It's funny how they talk about Pippen and Rodman being small at 6'7, and Arenas is 6'4, and Lou is 6'1. Pippen is legit 6'8 too, so he got it wrong.

Yet again another guy who didnt watch a thing and wants to take stuff out of context.
Lou was defending lebron james here not themselves..both rodman and pippen claimed they could lock lebron up.

They both said those are too small to defend james especially coming down hill theres no refuting that.


You guys always claim todays game is more skilled and the athletes have evolved. You get two expert opinions from pros who played at an elite level and the tune changes? Lmao

[Najee12]

Career ended at 25 with a knee injury.

And tbh youre the clown here cause you clearly didnt watch the video. He said he was intimidated his first season matched up with gary..it was during his 2nd where he said he realized he had a size advantage and killed gp a guy known to be a great defender.

What exactly did you research? All you did was suppoet arenas claims then get on your high horse.

Actually, Gilbert Arenas' career ended when he was age 30 in 2012 when he was in Memphis. He played five more seasons after his knee injury in 2007 (including a stint in Orlando), but teams no longer wanted to put up with his antics combined with his poor play and overpriced contract. Five years of horrible numbers and missing a boatload of games (he played in 134 games his final five seasons) while taking home big checks (Orlando waived him despite owing Arenas $20 million in 2012-13).

And the numbers didn't show a young Arenas "killed" a mid-30s Gary Payton; the numbers are virtually even (that's why I posted them, per Arenas' comments). Not to mention Payton (6-4) actually is taller than Arenas (6-3), so what size advantage did Arenas have over Payton?

Arenas still wants to be relevant among today's sports scene (which was his problem when he played; he was more interested in stupid hot takes and being a celebrity and it was common knowledge he focused on his celebrity more than his game as his career progressed). At the end of the day, Arenas is flash-in-the-pan NBA washout who is hardly remembered, except when he runs his mouth. You sound like Arenas' burner account (which would make you a joke).

[Ainosterhaspie]

2011 Mavericks use a ton of zone defense. Zone defense was illegal in earlier eras. This series proves LeBron couldn't handle earlier eras.

I'm confused.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Pippen and Rodman would still be great players in today's league.

I'm not sure Rodman gets as many rebounds simply because the increase in three point shooting has led to more rebounds farther from the basket, but if Tristan Thompson could sway series with his rebounding, and he did, Rodman certainly could.

The worst case scenario for Pippen is that he's only as good as Iguodala. You know, a finals MVP and key contributor to a 70 win team and one of the most dominant lineups ever level player.

[MetalFingaz]

Read on Twitter

Not necessarily a useful comparison given the positional and gameplay changes happening around the league. Lots of big, lumbering guys at C who could get minutes in the 90s couldn't sniff the floor today.

[nikster]

Young guys today won't understand until they're a bit older and the younger generation starts saying that Lebron James would be a terrible player in 2030. They'll say he just played against regular guys likee JJ Barea and Steve Novak. You'll see. Not today, not tomorrow but in time and then you'll understand just how good the older generations were.

This - all of this.

He's right - it will happen. I was in my very early 20s when MJ won his last title and I thought I'd never hear anyone run him down.... 20 years later? Here we are. If you are in your 20s now you are going to be shocked what people say about Lebron when you are in your 40s.

What could they possibly say about Lebron that we don’t hear all the time on these boards?

[nikster]

Staunch "the NBA was tougher back then" proponents have to admit that back then there were a plethora of the role player guys on teams that wouldn't even make it into D2 teams today.

Most of those " role player" were 4 year college with many of them being all Americans . Is there more talent to choose from now than in previous decades ? of course but just like in previous decades it takes more than just talent.

Back then there were grown men who knew how to play and had been in numerous pressure situations that could come in be coached and execute game plans . The nba now is so watered down outside from a few teams its crazy as you have a roster of 6-7 guys that can play and then the rest are simply young guys you have to teach how to play basketball for several years which are things they used to learn in college .

Its basically a situation where over decades low athleticism/high IQ + skill have been replaced with low IQ/high athleticism + skill and teams are now more willing to to wait and see if a person with low IQ can learn how to play the game .

19 year old talent >>> then a less talented player with 4 years college experience. And really don’t see how you can argue IQ and skill are lower now.

[r0drig0lac]

Pippen and Rodman would still be great players in today's league.

I'm not sure Rodman gets as many rebounds simply because the increase in three point shooting has led to more rebounds farther from the basket, but if Tristan Thompson could sway series with his rebounding, and he did, Rodman certainly could.

The worst case scenario for Pippen is that he's only as good as Iguodala. You know, a finals MVP and key contributor to a 70 win team and one of the most dominant lineups ever level player.

Pippen is better than Iguodala in each attribute, he's a superstar in any era

[Najee12]

Pippen and Rodman would still be great players in today's league.

I'm not sure Rodman gets as many rebounds simply because the increase in three point shooting has led to more rebounds farther from the basket, but if Tristan Thompson could sway series with his rebounding, and he did, Rodman certainly could.

The worst case scenario for Pippen is that he's only as good as Iguodala. You know, a finals MVP and key contributor to a 70 win team and one of the most dominant lineups ever level player.

The closest approximation of Dennis Rodman's rebounding acumen in today's era is Russell Westbrook. Although shorter at 6-foot-3, Westbrook has the same type of elite athleticism, strength, long wingspan for his size (6-8), rebounding radius and aggressiveness (like Westbrook, critics also accused Rodman of focusing on rebounding a little too much for personal stats).

Just like Westbrook is putting up eye-popping, historical numbers for his position, I can see Rodman's numbers actually being higher than his 1990s numbers. The pace was more halfcourt in the 1990s, so the increased pace and the emphasis on 3-point shooting in today's NBA (meaning more players guarding farther out) will mean more opportunities. The long caroms actually would work more in Rodman's favor, given his radius and his hustling combined with fighting with fewer bodies for rebounds.

As for Scottie Pippen, we already see the approximations for him -- Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

Leonard over the past two full seasons he has played has been a better scorer than Pippen, but Pippen was a better ball-handler and distributor. Leonard is a more physical defender while Pippen was a better trapping defender. Pippen was a more consistent, more efficient scorer than George, while George is the more explosive scorer. Everything else matches well -- the height, length, defensive flexibility, etc.

[Najee12]

The worst case scenario for Pippen is that he's only as good as Iguodala. You know, a finals MVP and key contributor to a 70 win team and one of the most dominant lineups ever level player.

Pippen is better than Iguodala in each attribute, he's a superstar in any era

I agree with you. Whenever I read comments like these, I wonder if some of these people don't know that Scottie Pippen was a perennial all-NBA player who had four seasons where he finished in the top 10 in league MVP voting (including third in 1993-94 when Michael Jordan was retired and fifth in 1995-96 with Jordan).

[Ainosterhaspie]

The worst case scenario for Pippen is that he's only as good as Iguodala. You know, a finals MVP and key contributor to a 70 win team and one of the most dominant lineups ever level player.

Pippen is better than Iguodala in each attribute, he's a superstar in any era

I agree with you. Whenever I read comments like these, I wonder if some of these people don't know that Scottie Pippen was a perennial all-NBA player who had four seasons where he finished in the top 10 in league MVP voting (including third in 1993-94 when Michael Jordan was retired and fifth in 1995-96 with Jordan).

I'm wondering if my comment is being misinterpreted. I see Pippen as easily better than Iguodala. I'm talking about if we push the limits of plausibility as far as possible, I can't see how it could be arguable he's worse than that. In my mind he's far better, but it's reasonable to argue he's not as good as I think he is.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Gilbert is saying that only their crap don't stink. It's true, players in the 90's can talk all kinds of **** in the present game and the past game. They can go from, "LeBron/KD/Curry is too soft" to "Wilt Chamberlain/Bill Russell played against janitors. Their records/titles shouldn't count"

As much as they think they are, they're not God's gift to Earth. They think they can walk on water, but when players today do the same thing, it's because they can't swim.

[draftnightsuit]

Read on Twitter

Well, for starters this isn’t even correct. According to Basketball-Reference, the average height/weight of NBA players in those years were:

1996: 6’7”, 213 lbs
2019: 6’7” 218 lbs

I guess dudes are now resorting to flat out lying.

[Najee12]

I'm wondering if my comment is being misinterpreted. I see Pippen as easily better than Iguodala. I'm talking about if we push the limits of plausibility as far as possible, I can't see how it could be arguable he's worse than that. In my mind he's far better, but it's reasonable to argue he's not as good as I think he is.

The Andre Iguodala in the Golden State era was a useful utilityman as a bench player; that's a big fall from a perennial all-NBA player just 20 years ago. Even the peak Iguodala from his Philadelphia days is a drop from a peak Scottie Pippen (MVP-level, 1994-96). If anything, it's overvaluing Golden State Iguodala (who was more like, say, 1980s "Showtime" Lakers guard and sixth man great Michael Cooper).

[Capn'O]

Did anyone else only see:

Gilbert Arenas... with shots fired

And expect a much different thread?