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Cavs Logjam of Guards

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Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#1 » by Richfield » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:40 pm

Guard-Forwards

Osman - 3M
Porter

Guards

Sexton
Garland
Dellavedova - 9M
Knight - 15M
Clarkson - 13M
Smith (Gone) - 15M

Other Salaries

Love - 29M
TT - 18M
Nance - 13M
Henson - 10M
Zizic - 2M


I left salaries off the rookies because I don't think Cavs plan on trading any of them, and their money is minimal anyways. Everybody else, with perhaps the exception of Nance, appears to be fair game to discuss moving. I am focused on the logjam at the guard spots, but included the other salaries in case they are part of a proposed package for a desired player you like.

Question is, Which guards to hold onto, and how many do we need?

I'll try to go first, but this is hard. don't know the answer to the second part, how many we need. With Beilein, he might want 4 competent guards (?), but I can only speculate. However, the wings can play some guard too, so I'd be okay with 3 guards total and having one of our wings fill in at scoring guard as needed.

Outside our rebuild guards, Sexton and Garland, the obvious 3rd guy to me is Dellavedova. I'm not sure this needs much explanation, but great mentor, knows his role, experienced, all about the right things. Okay not getting starter's minutes I assume. The fact that he makes less than the other two guards is a bonus.

Smith is trade or cut bait. That brings the focus, I think, onto Clarkson and Knight. Trade both, one, or none? I'd like to get some value for both guys if possible. Not sure what the market says about that. I'm pretty sure Clarkson has interest and his new agent can find him a spot. Knight, I'm less clear on. Would teams be interested? Which ones if so?

Why I feel that way is I think Knight would feel he's better than our rookies, and not be happy giving up minutes to new guys. That's complete speculation, and he might fit Beilein's system as well as any of the potential backups, but would would he be okay in that role?

And with Clarkson, it has to do with shots and tunnel vision. He'd eat up a lot of shots of our guys trying to develop, and I question his ability to let the ball keep moving in a system like what I think Beilein will be installing.

So I think it's time to move on from these two, but would like to hear any other ideas on this logjam at the guard spot. It seem a lot of teams will be looking for depth at guard so I think we can do better than just salary dumps for these two guys with experience and some production. Their salaries are high enough to trade each separately, but maybe there's some way to package one or more of them if we're doing an eat salary for future assets situation.

What to do with this logjam?
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#2 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:48 pm

Buyout Knight if you can. He'll be looking for minutes in a contract year and the first year he's totally healthy. Delly is staying because he's not taking a buyout and you're not attaching an asset to move him. Clarkson is tradeable but it might be better to wait until the season starts. I suspect that none of the guys on expiring contracts will be back tbh.

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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#3 » by substancej » Mon Jul 1, 2019 3:55 pm

In my opinion, the logjam of bigs is a larger issue
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#4 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jul 1, 2019 4:55 pm

Richfield wrote:Question is, Which guards to hold onto, and how many do we need?

Outside our rebuild guards, Sexton and Garland, the obvious 3rd guy to me is Dellavedova. I'm not sure this needs much explanation, but great mentor, knows his role, experienced, all about the right things. Okay not getting starter's minutes I assume. The fact that he makes less than the other two guards is a bonus.

What to do with this logjam?



Ultimately you'll need to decide if A) Sexton and D Garland can play together, B) If not, which one is the keeper.

For the time being, you obviously keep both for the forseeable future and experiment with them in different ways.

Delle as mentor seems like a good idea...as long as the kids are willing to listen.

Beyond that, everyone on the roster not named Nance should be made available when the time allows.



NOTE: JR Smith shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the locker room this season.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#5 » by Stillwater » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:17 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Richfield wrote:Question is, Which guards to hold onto, and how many do we need?

Outside our rebuild guards, Sexton and Garland, the obvious 3rd guy to me is Dellavedova. I'm not sure this needs much explanation, but great mentor, knows his role, experienced, all about the right things. Okay not getting starter's minutes I assume. The fact that he makes less than the other two guards is a bonus.

What to do with this logjam?



Ultimately you'll need to decide if A) Sexton and D Garland can play together, B) If not, which one is the keeper.

For the time being, you obviously keep both for the forseeable future and experiment with them in different ways.

Delle as mentor seems like a good idea...as long as the kids are willing to listen.

Beyond that, everyone on the roster not named Nance should be made available when the time allows.



NOTE: JR Smith shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the locker room this season.

Yeah none of this really comes as a surprise in a rebuild imo.
Knight needs to go by the DL as a salary dump and Smith is gone this summer regardless of if traded or cut.
teams have already been inquiring about the availability of Sexton , but the Cavs drafted Garland because of his ability to
play so well off ball aka off Sexton. And because Sexton showed the abilty to play well off ball last season where both are versatile enough to play together long term. I don't see either lottery guard traded but if one was , it would be the situation where Cavs were offered more than expected value that the Cavs could not turn it down.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#6 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:22 pm

:dontknow:


Time will tell, man.

I foresee a move down the line. I have no idea who it will be though.

C Sexton and D Garland both wrangling for control of the offense feels like it could be a repeat of the Kyrie - Waiters feud from years ago.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#7 » by gflem » Mon Jul 1, 2019 10:21 pm

Jamaaliver wrote::dontknow:


Time will tell, man.

I foresee a move down the line. I have no idea who it will be though.

C Sexton and D Garland both wrangling for control of the offense feels like it could be a repeat of the Kyrie - Waiters feud from years ago.

I dont see Sexton as having that big of an ego, but being that he was here last year, he might feel that he should be first option. However, Love I think will be option 1, running the offense through him when he is on the floor, and Nance when Love isnt.
I dont see the Cavs running a typical NBA offense, that being initiated by a PG but rather using a big in the high post and running motion off of that with Sexton and Garland spreading the floor.
But to your point I do believe that one of either Sexton or Garland will be moved sometime down the line, I just dont believe that they are going to coexist and be as effective as Portlands guards which is how they are being compared by some.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#8 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 10:58 pm

substancej wrote:In my opinion, the logjam of bigs is a larger issue
We have four centers and only one PF.

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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#9 » by Stillwater » Mon Jul 1, 2019 11:10 pm

Jamaaliver wrote::dontknow:


Time will tell, man.

I foresee a move down the line. I have no idea who it will be though.

C Sexton and D Garland both wrangling for control of the offense feels like it could be a repeat of the Kyrie - Waiters feud from years ago.

Neither of these guards are the personalities that match Waiters or KI.
I don't see any issue besides a good one where their competitiveness makes each player better not lessened.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#10 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:34 am

^Yeah.

I hear that 19 year old millionaire athletes are always team first and unselfish.

There's never been an example otherwise. :roll:
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#11 » by Trailbreaker » Tue Jul 2, 2019 11:34 am

Since I haven’t really seen Garland play, I must ask is he a pretty good 3 point shooter from NBA distance? It almost seems to be a requirement in today’s NBA.

If he is I would probably take Garland over Sexton, but I would like to see them on the court together for a reasonable amount of time first.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#12 » by Stillwater » Tue Jul 2, 2019 12:48 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:^Yeah.

I hear that 19 year old millionaire athletes are always team first and unselfish.

There's never been an example otherwise. :roll:

OK, let me spell it out for you: Sexton is proven to be a relentless worker who doesn't care about social media opinions or distractions and will do whatever it takes to contribute to winning. Garland has not proven this and may be the type that the $ goes to his head. Yet to be determined, but from the interviews my take is Garland although somewhat cautious in his opinion of the backcourt set up , also had to have given Altman a strong feeling that barring unforeseen issues, Garland is on board with the 2 combo guard back court where neither of them is the exclusive floor gen or he would have drafted White or Culver at 5.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#13 » by Stillwater » Tue Jul 2, 2019 1:01 pm

Trailbreaker wrote:Since I haven’t really seen Garland play, I must ask is he a pretty good 3 point shooter from NBA distance? It almost seems to be a requirement in today’s NBA.

If he is I would probably take Garland over Sexton, but I would like to see them on the court together for a reasonable amount of time first.

I think Garland has the more "pure" jumper of the 2 guards. I do not think he is the better player though at this time.
Garland did show pretty elite shooting range in HS and has advanced handles , but lacks the tenacity and fire that Sexton plays with.
I think it will be a very good offensive pairing & assuming both improve defensively to at least be reasonably good, Sexton will defend the 2 guards(longer/faster) but handle the ball more running plays than Darius will. Garland to me will be a closer and 6th man type early on his career but can play well enough off ball or on ball to fit it with Sexton. Garland may ultimately prove to have better court vision as a lead guard , seems to be the common theme but I am not sold Sexton won't be better in that regard despite still learning.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#14 » by Revenged25 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 1:08 pm

Trailbreaker wrote:Since I haven’t really seen Garland play, I must ask is he a pretty good 3 point shooter from NBA distance? It almost seems to be a requirement in today’s NBA.

If he is I would probably take Garland over Sexton, but I would like to see them on the court together for a reasonable amount of time first.


Sexton shot 40% on 3s this past year on 3.6 attempts... that's pretty damn good if you ask me. I'm really interested to see how this team plays with everyone healthy as I enjoyed the ball movement that the SL team was able to implement in their relatively short amount of practice. There were a lot of open looks that they created with the ball movement and if that can be replicated with the real roster then I think the Cavs won't be losing games due to a lack of scoring this year.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#15 » by Richfield » Tue Jul 2, 2019 1:51 pm

Jamaaliver maybe it's because you're a Hawks fan but pushing the narrative that KI and Waiters had a feud is neither productive or very accurate. That "feud" was more driven by the media who had nothing to write about, and didn't like Waiters or Kyrie, and internet posters like yourself. They got along good enough to play together. Just weren't great fits at that point in their careers.

Also, the "19 year old millionaire athletes" language revealing your jealousy or disdain treats those who fit that category as if they're all the same or behave a certain way because of their money whereas not everybody's character is changed by money. That combined with the "there has never been an example otherwise" sarcastic hyperbole is not welcomed because you're trying to change the discussion and it seems you're derailing the thread.

Pretty much nobody who pays close attention to the Cavs thinks that Sexton and Garland will have any type of personal issues with each other. Sexton is as described above, focused on winning and positive with teammates. Garland grew up with a father who played in the NBA, so to think that getting a little bit of money of his own will change him, when he has his father guiding him along the way and focused on the game, just doesn't make sense.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss what the Cavs will do with their roster OUTSIDE of the only two guys we're sure will be playing guard for the Cavs this season, Garland and Sexton. I think we're past the point of debating whether one of these guys is getting traded this season or at least until they've had enough time together to see what it looks like on the court. Cavs have two young guys with good character and talent, one of whom we know is improving rapidly.

This thread is more about the other guys in the backcourt that just won't fit with the Cavs plans moving forward for whatever reason, as there are too many veteran guards to keep happy when we start the season and at too steep of a price considering they're not the future for the Cavs.

So if possible, try to stay focused on what the thread is about, not on KI and Waiters or guard feuds of NBA history or how much more money these kids make than the average joe. This is about the logjam of guards on the back end of the Cavs roster, or as one person thought was more pressing, a logjam in another part of the court if they don't think the backcourt is an issue. It's about Cavs roster moves and what needs to be done to balance out the roster. If that's too hard to stay focused on I can link you back to the Hawks forum to focus on your team. Thanks.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#16 » by Stillwater » Tue Jul 2, 2019 3:23 pm

to the point of the thread: I think the majority of guards will all have reasonable availability in the rotation at different levels and I do not think the priority will be on anything more than player development, but if not traded before the season starts I do think Knight and Clarkson will definitely get more minutes than most fans will like in order to boost value before the dl. I am not sold they will shop JC at all, but expect they will get calls if his 1st half of the season goes as well as last season and he would be moved if the return was better than what he provides off the bench, if not I think they offer him a contract next summer and if he walks for more $ he walks.
Thompson,Henson and Delly will all be available at the dl if not right now as well but the Cavs are not going to pay to move them so unless the returns are decent they will all fall off the books next summer.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#17 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:34 pm

Every NBA Team's Biggest Question Mark

Cleveland Cavaliers: Can This Backcourt Be Fixed?

Image

As it turns out, maybe it wasn't a good idea to pair two small, ball-dominant guards.

To the credit of first-year NBA head coach John Beilein, Cleveland has been way more interesting than anyone expected. Tristan Thompson is having a classic contract year, while Kevin Love looks as close to his Minnesota self as we've seen in a while. It's just this backcourt snafu that is messing up the Cavs' good start.

Cleveland ranks 29th in assist percentage and 26th in assist-to-turnover ratio. In addition, the Cavs' four main guards—Collin Sexton, Darius Garland, Jordan Clarkson and Kevin Porter Jr.—are all score-first options, and only Sexton is proficient off the ball.

Sexton and Garland are both recent lottery picks, so unless the Cavs get floored by a trade proposal, they should give them a few years to figure each other out. But Clarkson is a free agent this summer, and Cleveland should think long and hard about moving him to at least partially de-clutter what is currently a confusing guard group.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#18 » by Stillwater » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:00 pm

i chuckle sometimes at these br takes given its obvious cle is interested only in developing and coaching up Garland otherwise he would not be starting. Until he starts making some shots the entire paint is clogged.
i think jc given his start to the season although good as a 2 way player has not been anything like last season in this situation under beilein.His value isnt great beyond expiring to most teams so i think he stays. Knight isnt even playing so i expect he moved for s top 55 protected by the dl.
Beilein is not afraid to let his young core get humiliated through the rebuilding process as part of his coaching mantra .
i see nothing wrong with the pairing of Sexton and Garland other than Garlands bad shooting.
Sexton has been quite a bit better defensively is often guarding sgs or sfs which makes it even more impressive. his progression suggests lock down defender is likely sooner than later.
the dime rates are down due to poor shooting much more than players fitting or not on the court.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#19 » by gflem » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:47 pm

Stillwater wrote:i chuckle sometimes at these br takes given its obvious cle is interested only in developing and coaching up Garland otherwise he would not be starting. Until he starts making some shots the entire paint is clogged.
i think jc given his start to the season although good as a 2 way player has not been anything like last season in this situation under beilein.His value isnt great beyond expiring to most teams so i think he stays. Knight isnt even playing so i expect he moved for s top 55 protected by the dl.
Beilein is not afraid to let his young core get humiliated through the rebuilding process as part of his coaching mantra .
i see nothing wrong with the pairing of Sexton and Garland other than Garlands bad shooting.
Sexton has been quite a bit better defensively is often guarding sgs or sfs which makes it even more impressive. his progression suggests lock down defender is likely sooner than later.
the dime rates are down due to poor shooting much more than players fitting or not on the court.

I do see the defensive problems of having Garland and Sexton starting together. While Sexton has obviously been better defensively I dont see lockdown defender as being his calling card ever. Not having anyone to protect the rim hasnt helped, but there have been way to many opposing players waltzing through the lane for layups due to Garland (usually) and Sexton (occassionally) being taken off the dribble or not fighting through a pick. And I have to mention that opposing teams have been posting them both up with more frequency with the result being easy baskets, or easy passes to the help defenders players for baskets.
I think we all knew this was coming, and I am not surprised by the poor defense overall but it is hard to watch. I have said I am looking forward to keeping our pick this year and the team is on track to do that. I also am looking forward to whatever moves the team makes this season as the roster obviously flawed.
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Re: Cavs Logjam of Guards 

Post#20 » by Stillwater » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:07 pm

at this point my take on this rebuild is basically 3 factors
1 the cavs are expected to suck and so they are completely committed to allowing Beilein to prioritize building the roster this season giving heavy minutes to kids whos positions and roles on this roster need to become more recognizable through playing time together, there are too many holes in every players games to not do it this way.They are not putting the best product on the floor to win games right now it isnt important to them.
2. for the most part they are in the business of picking high motor high upside high character but extremely raw ,or otherwise far from nba ready prospects who absolutely need years to reach their ceilings and they couldnt care less about fan or media concerns about who can or cant play together because this is yr 1 of the Beilein rebuild.
3. they clearly dont plan on trading Love and are not trying to boost expiring player values by gifting more pt, but are willing to listen to any offers esp if TT continues to be very solid provided the picks returning are worth giving him up.
I think Knight is on the block but they dont expect to get anything either so he isnt playing and probably will just get waived unless a early 2nd is offerred
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