Peaks project update: #1

Mavericksfan · Post #81 » by **Mavericksfan** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 1:59 pm

Wait we can vote multiple years for one person AND have those votes all count towards the same person?

I’m out if that’s the case. I don’t think that format makes any sense.

Gibson22 · Post #82 » by **Gibson22** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 2:02 pm

Spoiler:

Hi guys, I just wanted to inform you that we changed the voting system a little bit. It was a mistake on my part, I didn't get what the consensus was on the previous thread. Basically it's the same (3 ballot choises, 4,5 pts for the 1st, 3 for the 2nd, 2 for the third, you can use your 3 choises to vote for different seasons of the same player if you want, highest point total wins the spot, 48 hours/thread, you can't vote for a player once he gets elected and gets his spot), but the big difference is that PLAYERS DON'T GET CREDIT FOR ALL OF THE VOTES THEY RECIEVE (EXAMPLE: IF JORDAN 91 GETS 30 POINTS AND JORDAN 90 GETS 20 POINTS, BUT SHAQ 00 GETS 37 POINTS AND SHAQ 01 GETS 4 POINTS, SHAQ WILL WIN BECAUSE HIS HIGHEST-VOTED SEASON IS THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS).
Remember, YOU CAN STILL USE YOUR 3 BALLOTS TO VOTE FOR THE SAME PLAYER TWICE OR THRICE.
You have time, this thread will last 72 hours instead of 48, so you have more than a day to change your vote if you want to. Edit your vote if you want, especially considering that I'm feeling like many didn't get that (not my mistake this time tbh) You can use your 3 choices to vote for different seasons of the same player more than once

Gibson22 · Post #83 » by **Gibson22** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 2:03 pm

Mavericksfan wrote:Wait we can vote multiple years for one person AND have those votes all count towards the same person?

I’m out if that’s the case. I don’t think that format makes any sense.

No it's the opposite. Those votes DON'T count for the same player

Gibson22 · Post #84 » by **Gibson22** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 2:05 pm

Timmyyy wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Yep for now. I'm assuming the project will stop for a while during the tally because I'll be real if multiple years all count as one I'm dropping the project because it's starting to get obvious why the one year one vote rule would be dropped.

Check the OP

Did you edit the OP?

Because when I first read it I was under the impression voting system didn't change compared to the last time and since most people voted 3 different players I didn't double check.

When we are now going for the other approach, I will make a 2nd edit since I don't consider 2003 Duncan better than 2nd best MJ or 2nd best Lebron.

Thanks in advance for clarification.

I did edit it but It was already stated that you could vote for the same player more than once

Gregoire · Post #85 » by **Gregoire** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 2:10 pm

EDIT:
Ive just realised, that we could vote for the same player. In these case I edit my vote:
1st ballot vote: 1990-91 Michael Jordan
2nd ballot vote: 1989-90 Michael Jordan
3rd ballot vote:2012-2013 Lebron James

Post #86 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 2:13 pm

I am going Russell 62, LeBron 13, and Jordan 91.

Gibson22 · Post #87 » by **Gibson22** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 2:43 pm

We could leave this thread (and this one only) open for more than 48 hours since many didn't get that you can vote a player more than once. What do you guys think?

Timmyyy · Post #88 » by **Timmyyy** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 3:05 pm

Changed my vote in my voting post again. To give the explanaition for my choices for further discussion I will post it here again (leaving off the vote to avoid confusion, so everybody who is interested in vote has to go back to post #33).

Why so much Lebron seasons over MJ? Because all these three seasons look like they are on the exact same level and I see Lebrons peak impact as slightly higher than MJs.
MJ is the slightly better offensive player for me because he is better off ball player and scorer overall whereas Lebron is the better playmaker. Both for me offensive GOAT candidates but give me MJ slightly.
On defense MJ was a great perimeter defender maybe one of the best ever BUT he was just that a perimeter defender. Lebron might have been worse as a pure perimeter defender but he also had a great impact on the inside as a help defender and even as a rim protector at times. When you look at 09 Cleveland, 12 Miami and 16 Cleveland, he was either a secondary defensive anchor or a primary anchor in a shared role on all of these teams. That boosts your defensive impact to a degree that can't be reached with pure perimeter defense.
In the end I consider the defensive gap a little bigger that the offensive one that's why I have him above.
To quantify it a little, according to Engelmanns multiyear and PI RAPM data for these years Lebron in all these years seems to be in the 6-6.5 ORAPM and 2.5-3 DRAPM range. If I would have to give my feeling about MJ I would go with 7-7.5 ORAPM and 1.5-2 DRAPM on the same scale. You see the range of total RAPM is actually the same but I believe Jordan to be a little on the lower side of what I took as range and therefor being a bit worse. But it also shows that they are so close that I have no problem with Jordan above Lebron either even with multiple years. But gun to my head I am confident with that choice.
Michael in 1991 would follow right after these 3 Lebron years and might have multiple years too until Lebron in 13, 17, 10, 14 would follow.

Little side note: RAPM is showing Lebron 2013 as a clear step below these other years defensively already. Wasn't really aware of that and didn't notice it at the time. Always thought that 14 was the first year he took step back in that regard.

A little extra explanaition for my choices is that I don't put too much stock in small differences between years of the same player and Lebrons RAPM these years is a pretty good indicator and hint to this. I believe players have multiple years with their peak level play and impact and only small differences in season outcome or boxscore are building the perception of differences. I believe these smaller differences to be mostly luck driven or random stuff and because of that mostly irrelevant.

E-Balla · Post #89 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 3:30 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:We could leave this thread (and this one only) open for more than 48 hours since many didn't get that you can vote a player more than once. What do you guys think?

I say we leave it open another day, give people a chance to redo votes.

Gibson22 · Post #90 » by **Gibson22** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 3:41 pm

E-Balla wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:We could leave this thread (and this one only) open for more than 48 hours since many didn't get that you can vote a player more than once. What do you guys think?

I say we leave it open another day, give people a chance to redo votes.

We can do it, even tho most should have known that you can vote a player more than once (it was stated), the rule change (that votes for different seasons don't add up to a player) shouldn't affect your choice order

E-Balla · Post #91 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 3:59 pm

Sublime187 wrote:Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I believe Mikan has no case. Historically, black players have dominated the league and do to this day. Even in today's advanced era, there is maybe one top 10 white player. I understand Mikan beat what was in front of him but who is to say there were not many black players that were not allowed to play because of racism were not better then him?

Mikan played his whole career (outside of his rookie season) in an integrated league. He retired the year before Bill Russell entered the league and guys that were his contemporaries like Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, and Bob Pettit stayed great until the 60s while at the time not being anywhere near Mikan's level of play.

It was just an extremely inferior league that was dominated by a guy that was bigger and a little more athletic. And imagine his competition. After black players were allowed to play how many white players have there been in the top 20 any given year in the league.

It would be like taking the best white player today dominating only white players (not many in even the top 30 likely) and saying he is the best in the world. It just does not seem fair, again not Mikan's fault but there is major asterisk on any of his accomplishments IMO.

This is kinda why I love projects like these too. I know plenty of other people probably assume Mikan played in an non integrated league against nothing but mediocre white dudes but the bridge between him and someone like Russell is so small.

E-Balla · Post #92 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 4:01 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:We could leave this thread (and this one only) open for more than 48 hours since many didn't get that you can vote a player more than once. What do you guys think?

I say we leave it open another day, give people a chance to redo votes.

We can do it, even tho most should have known that you can vote a player more than once (it was stated), the rule change (that votes for different seasons don't add up to a player) shouldn't affect your choice order

True but this is the first thread of a project we've done multiple times with a completely different voting system so it makes sense people will assume one person one vote without actually reading the rules for comprehension. I mean I didn't notice you said all votes for years will tally as one originally, so maybe I'm just sympathetic.

Samurai · Post #93 » by **Samurai** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:11 pm

My vote:

91 Jordan
13 LeBron
67 Wilt

Ambrose · Post #94 » by **Ambrose** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 5:57 pm

I've gone through many legends careers and decided these were the seasons that stood out to me amongst the greatest of all time. Here are a few I liked that didn't make my final cut:
1967 Wilt, 1972 Kareem, 1986 Bird, 1987 Magic, 1990 Jordan, 2003 Duncan, 2009 James

Now for my contenders:

90-91 Michael Jordan

Spoiler:

12-13 LeBron James

Spoiler:

15-16 LeBron James

Spoiler:

99-00 Shaquille O'Neal

Spoiler:

My List

Spoiler:

Odinn21 · Post #95 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 6:47 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:

As much as I would love to participate and I like the group doing this, I'd like you to take my name off the list.
Writing this because I already stated I won't be a part of this and you probably copy pasted the voter list.

I'm not after a drama. Just explained my position. Cheers.

Dr Positivity · Post #96 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 7:29 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I believe Mikan has no case. Historically, black players have dominated the league and do to this day. Even in today's advanced era, there is maybe one top 10 white player. I understand Mikan beat what was in front of him but who is to say there were not many black players that were not allowed to play because of racism were not better then him?

Mikan played his whole career (outside of his rookie season) in an integrated league. He retired the year before Bill Russell entered the league and guys that were his contemporaries like Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, and Bob Pettit stayed great until the 60s while at the time not being anywhere near Mikan's level of play.

It was just an extremely inferior league that was dominated by a guy that was bigger and a little more athletic. And imagine his competition. After black players were allowed to play how many white players have there been in the top 20 any given year in the league.

It would be like taking the best white player today dominating only white players (not many in even the top 30 likely) and saying he is the best in the world. It just does not seem fair, again not Mikan's fault but there is major asterisk on any of his accomplishments IMO.

This is kinda why I love projects like these too. I know plenty of other people probably assume Mikan played in an non integrated league against nothing but mediocre white dudes but the bridge between him and someone like Russell is so small.

I'm of the opinion that basketball was more advanced by the 50s/60 than given credit for (it had been around a half century already) but there's a reason all of the best players in the league were white in the 50s. If technically integrated, it wasn't very much. Mikan's status as best player in the league is less impressive with his peers being white.

I also question whether he really is the most valuable vs his era all time. It doesn't seem like he was the best offensive player in the league any more than Duncan was. So Mikan defensive dominance + great offense is the best player... But not sure it's a margin other players generational players Lebron Jordan Wilt Kareem haven't matched, unless you think he was Russell level on defense

Gibson22 · Post #97 » by **Gibson22** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 7:43 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:

As much as I would love to participate and I like the group doing this, I'd like you to take my name off the list.
Writing this because I already stated I won't be a part of this and you probably copy pasted the voter list.

I'm not after a drama. Just explained my position. Cheers.

I'm sorry for what happened two days ago

Post #98 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 7:59 pm

Hmm... not sure how often i'll be able to participate, but might as well throw in a vote for the first spot.

Ballot #1 - 91 Jordan

Specifically for this spot, i feel strongly enough about 2 things: with the majority of people considering jordan the GOAT, it's hard to figure how someone else peaked higher than him. His longevity isn't elite, and while his overall prime is very solid, there is a pretty clear progression and steady decline to it.

And while I'm a big proponent of basketball being a team game, and an individual's performance only being able to get them so far, I do believe the #1 ranked peak season should include a championship. Jordan was masterful that year, playing in all 82 games, and putting on a superb finals performance:

31.2 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 11.4 APG, 2.8 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 61.2% TS, 125 ORTG

This also included an AST% of 45.8%! Pippen and Phil Jackson were the final pieces to the puzzle, but Jordan did just about everything you could ask for in leading that team to the championship.

Ballot #2 - 2000 Shaq

Shaq showed in 2000 why he has a case for the most dominant offensive force in NBA history. I'm sure some of you have been watching the games on NBA TV during shaq week, and it's a good reminder of how he really played. The notion that he was just bigger and stronger than everyone else is silly. His ability to create space and find the right angles on his array of post moves was exemplary. His decision making and physical quickness for his size was unmatched. This included passing out of the post when necessary.

It's noted by some that he didn't face the likes of hakeem, ewing, robinson, etc. on the way to his first championship. This is with the implication that he didn't hold his own in the past against those guys, which simply isn't true. Also, the lakers faced the 10th, 3rd, 5th and 13th ranked defenses on their way to the championship that season, so they were definitely tested.

Ballot #3 - 2013 LeBron

I could just as easily go with 2012 here, but since they're both close, i'll go with 2013 being the full season and lebron facing a tougher opponent in the finals. While the spurs were a ray allen missed 3 away from winning the title that year, lebron showed up in game 7 and closed them out.

This is the version of lebron we saw really control a game without scoring, and it put it over the top for me compared to 09. I was so impressed with the attention he commanded in the post, not even being a dominant post player. His ability to find the open man and create from that area was unmatched. It was almost bizarre to watch. Add that to his being an elite, versatile defender, and it sealed it for me.

70sFan · Post #99 » by **70sFan** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:08 pm

First Vote: 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain

I pick Wilt as my GOAT peak because I truly believe that he dominated the league in that season like nobody before or since. He was the anchor of the GOAT offense at this point and he was all-time great defensive player. His style of play was perfect for the league he played in and he was extremely versatile as he could play variety of roles with great success.

His series against the Celtics is one of the greatest performances ever. Possibly GOAT rebounding performance with great all-around game.

Second Vote: 1976-77 Kareem Abdul Jabbar

It is tough decision, as I'm not sure which season in Kareem's career is overall the best but I decided to pick the season with the best offensive skillset and still outstanding defensive pressence. I can't say that I've ever been so impressed with any other player in playoffs. We have 4 full games and parts of another one from that season and he was absolutely remarkable in all of them. GOAT offensive bigman for me with the best post game ever.

Third Vote: Can't decide between 1992-93 Hakeem and 2002-03 Duncan

I have to think more about this one. Based on what I've been working on recently, it seems that Hakeem was better, more consistent scorer. I can say without any doubts that Duncan was better and smarter passer overall but Olajuwon did tremendous job in Tomjanovic system. The question is defense and I'd love to have more time comparing their defensive tendencies and some impact stats. Maybe someone can help me here.

I'll make my post about Kareem vs Shaq next.

E-Balla · Post #100 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:16 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I believe Mikan has no case. Historically, black players have dominated the league and do to this day. Even in today's advanced era, there is maybe one top 10 white player. I understand Mikan beat what was in front of him but who is to say there were not many black players that were not allowed to play because of racism were not better then him?

Mikan played his whole career (outside of his rookie season) in an integrated league. He retired the year before Bill Russell entered the league and guys that were his contemporaries like Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, and Bob Pettit stayed great until the 60s while at the time not being anywhere near Mikan's level of play.

It was just an extremely inferior league that was dominated by a guy that was bigger and a little more athletic. And imagine his competition. After black players were allowed to play how many white players have there been in the top 20 any given year in the league.

It would be like taking the best white player today dominating only white players (not many in even the top 30 likely) and saying he is the best in the world. It just does not seem fair, again not Mikan's fault but there is major asterisk on any of his accomplishments IMO.

This is kinda why I love projects like these too. I know plenty of other people probably assume Mikan played in an non integrated league against nothing but mediocre white dudes but the bridge between him and someone like Russell is so small.

I'm of the opinion that basketball was more advanced by the 50s/60 than given credit for (it had been around a half century already) but there's a reason all of the best players in the league were white in the 50s. If technically integrated, it wasn't very much. Mikan's status as best player in the league is less impressive with his peers being white.

I would agree if he wasn't by far the best player over players that played until the 60s. If he was THAT much better than Schayes, Arizin, and Pettit in the 50s why would I assume he wouldn't be better than them by that same magnitude 5 years later?

I also question whether he really is the most valuable vs his era all time. It doesn't seem like he was the best offensive player in the league any more than Duncan was. So Mikan defensive dominance + great offense is the best player... But not sure it's a margin other players generational players Lebron Jordan Wilt Kareem haven't matched, unless you think he was Russell level on defense

He was clearly the best offensive player in the league to a degree Duncan wasn't. Was Tim Duncan ever even top 5 offensively in any given season? Like seriously Mikan led the league in scoring 3 straight years and led the postseason in scoring each of his first 4 seasons. Remember they created the shotclock for this man and the goaltending rule, if you don't adjust for era he's by far the most dominant player in league history. Personally I knock him down a few pegs because he played in an era before the shotclock when basketball wasn't remotely what it is now but when a player wins 5 rings in 6 years (the only year losing being because of a fractured leg) but he definitely has an argument for GOAT seeing as how he's the most dominant player ever and there's no doubt he still would've dominated earlier eras as other players dominated before and after the shotclock.