Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[zoyathedestroya]

19 million to Rozier, don’t sign Kanter yet, that leaves 15 million in open cap space? Trade Semi and/or Theis for Capela, give Rozier his raise into the remaining cap, package him with Baynes and Yabu for Kemba, then use the RooMLE on Kanter...

Walker/Smart/Edwards
Brown/Langford
Hayward/vet min
Tatum/Grant Williams
Capela/Kanter/Rob Williams?

Doesn’t Kemba have BYC issues going out from Charlotte, though? He counts as 16 million outgoing - which is why they can take back Rozier’s 18 - and it works because we can take Kemba’s full 32.7 into our cap space? Adding another 8 million means Charlotte would be sending out “16” (under Kemba BYC) and taking back 26..

Baynes counts against the cap space. The $34M you've been hearing is AFTER Baynes was traded to Phoenix (which really hasn't happened yet). So actual cap space is around $28.5M but since you have cap holds for Rozier and Theis it's around $19.2. The figures and steps can be found above.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Got it - misread one of the earlier posts - but what about Kemba’s BYC?

[djFan71]

Got it - misread one of the earlier posts - but what about Kemba’s BYC?

I think you're right on that, but it's not $8M added, since Baynes goes to PHO.
The holdup is probably Yabu's $3M: a) CHA doesn't want it, b) you're probably right it's not legal.
So you need a 4th team to absorb him.

[zoyathedestroya]

So this is confusing af...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

It seems conflicting with this:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q84

Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required. An exception is the mechanism that allows a team to make trades or sign players and finish over the salary cap. Since most teams are usually over the salary cap, trades are usually completed using exceptions.

So can we go over the cap using matching rules or not??

[zoyathedestroya]

Got it - misread one of the earlier posts - but what about Kemba’s BYC?

It's BYC for Charlotte since they're over the cap. So the salary point they need to use is 50% of Kemba's new salary which is $16.35M. They can receive up to $21.35M. If they so choose, they could take on Yabu's salary ($3.1M) on top of Rozier's salary ($17.9).

But for Boston, they need to match for the full amount which is $32.7M. Required outgoing salary for Cs is $26.08M. Rozier (not BYC) + Yabu + Baynes could cover that. Baynes goes to Phoenix as earlier reported.

[djFan71]

So this is confusing af...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

It seems conflicting with this:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q84

Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required. An exception is the mechanism that allows a team to make trades or sign players and finish over the salary cap. Since most teams are usually over the salary cap, trades are usually completed using exceptions.

So can we go over the cap using matching rules or not??

Probably Smitty or dangercart time, but it seems like in #85, you're just back to the normal salary matching rules under the TPE. TPE doesn't JUST mean the left over part it seems:

Also be aware that while the term "Traded Player exception" refers to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including both simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades), it is also commonly used to refer to the one-year monetary credit teams receive while a non-simultaneous trade is pending completion. Be aware of this potential ambiguity. In this document "Traded Player exception" is used to refer to the exception, and "trade exception" is used to refer to the one-year credit.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Got it - misread one of the earlier posts - but what about Kemba’s BYC?

It's BYC for Charlotte since they're over the cap. So the salary point they need to use is 50% of Kemba's new salary which is $16.35M. They can receive up to $21.35M. If they so choose, they could take on Yabu's salary ($3.1M) on top of Rozier's salary ($17.9).

But for Boston, they need to match for the full amount which is $32.7M. Required outgoing salary for Cs is $26.08M. Rozier (not BYC) + Yabu + Baynes could cover that. Baynes goes to Phoenix as earlier reported.

Ah ok, so it’s just combining those two deals that yields the extra 10 million?

[zoyathedestroya]

Got it - misread one of the earlier posts - but what about Kemba’s BYC?

It's BYC for Charlotte since they're over the cap. So the salary point they need to use is 50% of Kemba's new salary which is $16.35M. They can receive up to $21.35M. If they so choose, they could take on Yabu's salary ($3.1M) on top of Rozier's salary ($17.9).

But for Boston, they need to match for the full amount which is $32.7M. Required outgoing salary for Cs is $26.08M. Rozier (not BYC) + Yabu + Baynes could cover that. Baynes goes to Phoenix as earlier reported.

Ah ok, so it’s just combining those two deals that yields the extra 10 million?

No. The remaining space ($10.8M) is after you fit Rozier's new salary under the cap.

It appears we can't go over the cap post-Kemba-trade. So this discussion might be all moot lol.

[zoyathedestroya]

So this is confusing af...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

It seems conflicting with this:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q84

Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required. An exception is the mechanism that allows a team to make trades or sign players and finish over the salary cap. Since most teams are usually over the salary cap, trades are usually completed using exceptions.

So can we go over the cap using matching rules or not??

Probably Smitty or dangercart time, but it seems like in #85, you're just back to the normal salary matching rules under the TPE. TPE doesn't JUST mean the left over part it seems:

Also be aware that while the term "Traded Player exception" refers to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including both simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades), it is also commonly used to refer to the one-year monetary credit teams receive while a non-simultaneous trade is pending completion. Be aware of this potential ambiguity. In this document "Traded Player exception" is used to refer to the exception, and "trade exception" is used to refer to the one-year credit.

I will just assume that we can't go over the cap post-Kemba-trade.

Which is weird to me. If the team is over the cap, why are they allowed to make trades using the salary matching rules? What is this exception they're talking about? I've seen trades completed without the use of TPEs.

[djFan71]

So this is confusing af...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q89



It seems conflicting with this:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q84



So can we go over the cap using matching rules or not??

Probably Smitty or dangercart time, but it seems like in #85, you're just back to the normal salary matching rules under the TPE. TPE doesn't JUST mean the left over part it seems:

Also be aware that while the term "Traded Player exception" refers to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including both simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades), it is also commonly used to refer to the one-year monetary credit teams receive while a non-simultaneous trade is pending completion. Be aware of this potential ambiguity. In this document "Traded Player exception" is used to refer to the exception, and "trade exception" is used to refer to the one-year credit.

I will just assume that we can't go over the cap post-Kemba-trade.

Which is weird to me. If the team is over the cap, why are they allowed to make trades using the salary matching rules? What is this exception they're talking about? I've seen trades completed without the use of TPEs.

I dunno, if true that we can't, that fits my general gripe about the cap. Being over cap/under tax seems the most flexible which is weird.

But, why do you read that as not allowing the over the cap via the Kemba trade? I think it reads like you could. Just using the standard TPE - in the full sense of the term, not the credit part.

[Andrew McCeltic]

That 8 for 13 bit is .. so they mean if you’re 20 million under the cap, you can trade a player making 2 million for a player making 8 million without issue, as long as it doesn’t take you over the cap (+100k). But if you’re 2 million under the cap, you can trade the player making 8 million for a player making 10 million (staying at cap) *or* a player making 13 million (going over the cap) - but in the latter case, someone gets a TPE?

[zoyathedestroya]

Probably Smitty or dangercart time, but it seems like in #85, you're just back to the normal salary matching rules under the TPE. TPE doesn't JUST mean the left over part it seems:

I will just assume that we can't go over the cap post-Kemba-trade.

Which is weird to me. If the team is over the cap, why are they allowed to make trades using the salary matching rules? What is this exception they're talking about? I've seen trades completed without the use of TPEs.

I dunno, if true that we can't, that fits my general gripe about the cap. Being over cap/under tax seems the most flexible which is weird.

But, why do you read that as not allowing the over the cap via the Kemba trade? I think it reads like you could. Just using the standard TPE - in the full sense of the term, not the credit part.

FWIW, I got the idea of signing Rozier into cap space then trading him from here:

Read on Twitter

In dangercart's scenario, he would also go over the cap after trading for Capela + Kemba using signed Horford and signed Rozier, both non-BYC.

[zoyathedestroya]

I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I like it better when you use your beautiful mind for good rather than evil.

Can we combine Rozier's new salary with other players to trade for Kemba? YES, right?
I'm still trying to look for the glitch in this matrix.

[djFan71]

I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I like it better when you use your beautiful mind for good rather than evil.

Can we combine Rozier's new salary with other players to trade for Kemba? YES, right?
I'm still trying to look for the glitch in this matrix.

Seems like it from dangercart's scenario.
My gut is it's legal and we are being careful / waiting on a 4th team. Kanter we get for a contract that will work in either scenario. We may even announce a vet min guy, since that would work in either scenario as well. It's not like we said "hey, we're using the room exception on Kanter", just we are signing him for a price that is exactly that.

For fun.... If you add players making more money than Semi to your big man trade we could start getting into some really interesting names coming back. I'm not sure I want to do it to myself, though, and I'd probably rather just get Vonleh/Looney on the overpay 2-3 year deal and wait for everyone to be tradeable by the deadline.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Gercart is clowning you guys on Twitter. Lol

[zoyathedestroya]

Gercart is clowning you guys on Twitter. Lol

What do you mean? What is he saying?

[CSL_1904]

Gercart is clowning you guys on Twitter. Lol

What do you mean? What is he saying?

Ryan Bernardoni@dangercart

Scenarios like this aren’t loopholes, they’re just overly complicated and kind of pointless. Wouldn’t you just rather have Semi and the pick you’re going to have to give to move Yabu and whatever you have to give to re-open with Phoenix? All to overpay a non difference maker.


Like when I make up 6-Team S&T deals or playing around with Horford/Rozier under the cap moves to avoid BYC. You can figure a lot of creative ways around when you really need to (see how PHI/MIA/POR/LAC ended) but it’s almost always just a math exercise. Simple is what happens.

[djFan71]

Gercart is clowning you guys on Twitter. Lol

What do you mean? What is he saying?

Ryan Bernardoni@dangercart

Scenarios like this aren’t loopholes, they’re just overly complicated and kind of pointless. Wouldn’t you just rather have Semi and the pick you’re going to have to give to move Yabu and whatever you have to give to re-open with Phoenix? All to overpay a non difference maker.


Like when I make up 6-Team S&T deals or playing around with Horford/Rozier under the cap moves to avoid BYC. You can figure a lot of creative ways around when you really need to (see how PHI/MIA/POR/LAC ended) but it’s almost always just a math exercise. Simple is what happens.

We get all that, and know who @dangercart is. But, we're just trying to figure out what's legal here.

When we threw out S&T possibilities, everyone said they don't happen anymore. And, the scenario we're talking about here is not as complicated as the PHI/MIA/POR/LAC one you mention. In fact, 3 pieces of it have already been agreed up (Baynes trade, Kemba here, S&T of Rozier). So, it's not a huge leap to explore what else can be done.

98.723% of what we do here is pointless, so.... not really caring much if this ends up that way as well. We just want to understand what can be done legally.

[zoyathedestroya]

Gercart is clowning you guys on Twitter. Lol

What do you mean? What is he saying?

Ryan Bernardoni@dangercart

Scenarios like this aren’t loopholes, they’re just overly complicated and kind of pointless. Wouldn’t you just rather have Semi and the pick you’re going to have to give to move Yabu and whatever you have to give to re-open with Phoenix? All to overpay a non difference maker.


Like when I make up 6-Team S&T deals or playing around with Horford/Rozier under the cap moves to avoid BYC. You can figure a lot of creative ways around when you really need to (see how PHI/MIA/POR/LAC ended) but it’s almost always just a math exercise. Simple is what happens.

1. I don't think it's overly complicated. At least not as complicated as the one Cs were trying to pull off with Nets involving Crazy Kyrie or dangercart's 6-team trade.
2. Semi can be excluded in the trade.
3. Lakers sent 3 players to the Wizards for the cost of a 2nd rounder. How is this any different?
4. Yabu can be sent to a team with a TPE, not necessarily PHO. Cs can send cash instead of a pick.
5. I think it's worth it -- getting a serviceable player whose salary can be used later on in a trade instead of giving up Smart as trade ballast.

Anyway, at least question is asked and answered. Scenario is legal/allowable.

[djFan71]

What do you mean? What is he saying?

Ryan Bernardoni@dangercart

Scenarios like this aren’t loopholes, they’re just overly complicated and kind of pointless. Wouldn’t you just rather have Semi and the pick you’re going to have to give to move Yabu and whatever you have to give to re-open with Phoenix? All to overpay a non difference maker.


Like when I make up 6-Team S&T deals or playing around with Horford/Rozier under the cap moves to avoid BYC. You can figure a lot of creative ways around when you really need to (see how PHI/MIA/POR/LAC ended) but it’s almost always just a math exercise. Simple is what happens.

We get all that, and know who @dangercart is. But, we're just trying to figure out what's legal here.

When we threw out S&T possibilities, everyone said they don't happen anymore. And, the scenario we're talking about here is not as complicated as the PHI/MIA/POR/LAC one you mention. In fact, 3 pieces of it have already been agreed up (Baynes trade, Kemba here, S&T of Rozier). So, it's not a huge leap to explore what else can be done.

98.723% of what we do here is pointless, so.... not really caring much if this ends up that way as well. We just want to understand what can be done legally.

Oh, whoops.... I thought you were telling us who he was, not quoting. My bad. Why don't people just link what they're saying when they insult us?