Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[CSL_1904]

Ryan Bernardoni@dangercart

Scenarios like this aren’t loopholes, they’re just overly complicated and kind of pointless. Wouldn’t you just rather have Semi and the pick you’re going to have to give to move Yabu and whatever you have to give to re-open with Phoenix? All to overpay a non difference maker.


Like when I make up 6-Team S&T deals or playing around with Horford/Rozier under the cap moves to avoid BYC. You can figure a lot of creative ways around when you really need to (see how PHI/MIA/POR/LAC ended) but it’s almost always just a math exercise. Simple is what happens.

We get all that, and know who @dangercart is. But, we're just trying to figure out what's legal here.

When we threw out S&T possibilities, everyone said they don't happen anymore. And, the scenario we're talking about here is not as complicated as the PHI/MIA/POR/LAC one you mention. In fact, 3 pieces of it have already been agreed up (Baynes trade, Kemba here, S&T of Rozier). So, it's not a huge leap to explore what else can be done.

98.723% of what we do here is pointless, so.... not really caring much if this ends up that way as well. We just want to understand what can be done legally.

Oh, whoops.... I thought you were telling us who he was, not quoting. My bad. Why don't people just link what they're saying when they insult us?

That's on me. I should've quoted him properly. Too lazy.

[djFan71]

We get all that, and know who @dangercart is. But, we're just trying to figure out what's legal here.

When we threw out S&T possibilities, everyone said they don't happen anymore. And, the scenario we're talking about here is not as complicated as the PHI/MIA/POR/LAC one you mention. In fact, 3 pieces of it have already been agreed up (Baynes trade, Kemba here, S&T of Rozier). So, it's not a huge leap to explore what else can be done.

98.723% of what we do here is pointless, so.... not really caring much if this ends up that way as well. We just want to understand what can be done legally.

Oh, whoops.... I thought you were telling us who he was, not quoting. My bad. Why don't people just link what they're saying when they insult us?

That's on me. I should've quoted him properly. Too lazy.

No worries. I tried searching his timeline and still can't find this quote. If you have the link, I'd love to see it. Just wanna see the context.

[CSL_1904]

Oh, whoops.... I thought you were telling us who he was, not quoting. My bad. Why don't people just link what they're saying when they insult us?

That's on me. I should've quoted him properly. Too lazy.

No worries. I tried searching his timeline and still can't find this quote. If you have the link, I'd love to see it. Just wanna see the context.

Read on Twitter

[djFan71]

That's on me. I should've quoted him properly. Too lazy.

No worries. I tried searching his timeline and still can't find this quote. If you have the link, I'd love to see it. Just wanna see the context.

Read on Twitter

Awesome, thanks!

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

I legit think he's just salty he didnt think of it first. Don't worry. Mike Zarren has also been notified. He'll put this knowledge to good use

[djFan71]

OK, good to know it's possible. Obviously, it depends on what the cost would be, etc. But, you have the entirety of the NBA making less than $11.3M + whatever other players you want to throw in to work with. There are definitely guys out there worth Semi & a pick or 2 making less than that.

I claim victory in the name of zoyathedestoya. Coincidence his username starts with Z? I think not.

[captain green]

So we only have room for veteran contracts ?
Mle? Can I get like a break down ? Saw something about waiving yabu?

[djFan71]

So we only have room for veteran contracts ?
Mle? Can I get like a break down ? Saw something about waiving yabu?

We are operating as a team below the cap. So, we have no exceptions.

But, in a 3 or 4 team scenario, we can open around $11.3M to be used BEFORE trading Kemba. That could be used in:

- A straight FA signing, if there's anyone left.
- A trade where we absorb up to that much more salary than we send out
- Some combination of those

To do it we probably need a 4th team to take Yabusele's contract, but these pieces already exist:
- S&T of Rozier to CHA
- Draft day trade of Baynes to PHO
- Agreement with Kemba for max

So, if we incentivize a 4th team to take Yabu (ie, pick), and roll the PHO and Rozier and Kemba deals together with that, we can free up that room.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Yabu/1st for Capela? I think we’d have to include Theis at about the same salary he has now..

Do we lose Ojeleye in this scenario?

[zoyathedestroya]

19 million to Rozier, don’t sign Kanter yet, that leaves 15 million in open cap space? Trade Semi and/or Theis for Capela, give Rozier his raise into the remaining cap, package him with Baynes and Yabu for Kemba, then use the RooMLE on Kanter...

Walker/Smart/Edwards
Brown/Langford
Hayward/vet min
Tatum/Grant Williams
Capela/Kanter/Rob Williams?

Doesn’t Kemba have BYC issues going out from Charlotte, though? He counts as 16 million outgoing - which is why they can take back Rozier’s 18 - and it works because we can take Kemba’s full 32.7 into our cap space? Adding another 8 million means Charlotte would be sending out “16” (under Kemba BYC) and taking back 26..

Spoiler:

Since we're into hypothetical scenarios, however unlikely...

Yes, we can theoretically trade for both Kemba and Capela. The math would work. But this is more complicated than acquiring just Kemba. I'll punch in the figures later, but framework would look something like this:

TRADE 1:
BOS gets Kemba (max), 32nd pick, 2020 MIL 1st
CHA gets Rozier (reported figure)
PHO gets Baynes, Yabu*, 24th pick
*Yabu can go to a 4th team w/ TPE or cap space

TRADE 2A:
BOS gets Capela
HOU gets S&Td Morris (signed to $9.9M -- not BYC), 2020 MIL 1st

TRADE 2B:
BOS gets Capela
HOU gets TPE, Williams, 2020 MIL 1st
LAL* gets S&Td Morris (signed to $15.92M -- BYC)
*just an example. If third team doesn't have cap space or sizable TPE, it gets more complicated

I think that works. Not sure if TRADE 2B gets us the full MLE and BAE.

EDIT: THIS IS WRONG.

[zoyathedestroya]

Yabu/1st for Capela? I think we’d have to include Theis at about the same salary he has now..

Do we lose Ojeleye in this scenario?

See post above. Gotta use Mook in a S&T for Capela. Mook could either go to a third team or Houston, if they want him.

[djFan71]

Yabu/1st for Capela? I think we’d have to include Theis at about the same salary he has now..

Do we lose Ojeleye in this scenario?

We need Yabu to be in the deal for Kemba for salary matching, so he's out as a trade chip with the $11.3M.

Beyond that the $11.3 is just the space we have left after Rozier & Theis cap holds and renouncing everyone else. So we don't need to lose Semi. Theis cap hold is included before getting to the $11.3M. So we sign him AFTER we use the $11.3M.

Basically, you have carte blanche to come up with trade ideas that bring us back whatever salary you send out + $11.3M. But:
- It has to be exact, no 125% buffer since we're dealing into cap. You have to be at least $1 below when you're done.
- You can't include Terry, or Yabu since they're already traded.
- You can't include Yabu, unless you replace his money in the Kemba trade with someone else left on the roster (which gets unappealing quick).

[djFan71]

Yabu/1st for Capela? I think we’d have to include Theis at about the same salary he has now..

Do we lose Ojeleye in this scenario?

We need Yabu to be in the deal for Kemba for salary matching, so he's out as a trade chip with the $11.3M.

Beyond that the $11.3 is just the space we have left after Rozier & Theis cap holds and renouncing everyone else. So we don't need to lose Semi. Theis cap hold is included before getting to the $11.3M. So we sign him AFTER we use the $11.3M.

Basically, you have carte blanche to come up with trade ideas that bring us back whatever salary you send out + $11.3M. But:
- It has to be exact, no 125% buffer since we're dealing into cap. You have to be at least $1 below when you're done.
- You can't include Terry, or Yabu since they're already traded.
- You can't include Yabu, unless you replace his money in the Kemba trade with someone else left on the roster (which gets unappealing quick).

And Zoya just covered the OTHER option. Keep Morris hold & trade him as well.

[GotDaSauce]

No worries. I tried searching his timeline and still can't find this quote. If you have the link, I'd love to see it. Just wanna see the context.

Read on Twitter

Awesome, thanks!

Honestly I would give up Semi and a couple random second rounders if we could use it to sign a Boogie or Mook. They are clearly better players and I really like Semi.

[djFan71]

I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I don't think the Morris scenario as a separate trade works - with Terry's full contract, Morris' hold and Kanter, you run out of room.

Renounce all but Terry, Theis, Morris and keep Baynes salary gets me to :
1. $9.85 (adjust by 1 non-roster hold maybe).
2. Sign Terry to $17.9 takes you down to $1.2M.
You have no room to sign Kanter before trading Rozier and taking back Kemba and going over the cap, right?

Unless it's all in one big old trade. For instance.

Sign Morris to $11M, sign Langford, wait 30 days....

BOS: Morris, Langford, Rozier, Yabusele, Baynes ($40.9M) => Enough to bring Kemba (32.7) and Turner ($18M) back.
IND: Turner for Morris, Langford, Yabusele, MIL 2020. Numbers match almost exactly, so no problem
CHA/PHO: you know.

Maybe we throw in another pick, say BOS 2021? Pretty good deal for Indiana if they wanna go Goga and get the IU guy, and Morris for now. Not sure if Morris would like IND, but he'd like the $. Made a little more sense for them pre-Lamb, but still could now.

Anywho, there are some scenarios out there. But, I don't see how you can do it with Morris as a separate trade.

[djFan71]

I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I don't think the Morris scenario as a separate trade works - with Terry's full contract, Morris' hold and Kanter, you run out of room.

Renounce all but Terry, Theis, Morris and keep Baynes salary gets me to :
1. $9.85 (adjust by 1 non-roster hold maybe).
2. Sign Terry to $17.9 takes you down to $1.2M.
You have no room to sign Kanter before trading Rozier and taking back Kemba and going over the cap, right?

Unless it's all in one big old trade. For instance.

Sign Morris to $11M, sign Langford, wait 30 days....

BOS: Morris, Langford, Rozier, Yabusele, Baynes ($40.9M) => Enough to bring Kemba (32.7) and Turner ($18M) back.
IND: Turner for Morris, Langford, Yabusele, MIL 2020. Numbers match almost exactly, so no problem
CHA/PHO: you know.

Maybe we throw in another pick, say BOS 2021? Pretty good deal for Indiana if they wanna go Goga and get the IU guy, and Morris for now. Not sure if Morris would like IND, but he'd like the $. Made a little more sense for them pre-Lamb, but still could now.

Anywho, there are some scenarios out there. But, I don't see how you can do it with Morris as a separate trade.

Or do you still get to use the room exception on Kanter if you're $1 below?

[zoyathedestroya]

I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I don't think the Morris scenario as a separate trade works - with Terry's full contract, Morris' hold and Kanter, you run out of room.

Renounce all but Terry, Theis, Morris and keep Baynes salary gets me to :
1. $9.85 (adjust by 1 non-roster hold maybe).
2. Sign Terry to $17.9 takes you down to $1.2M.
You have no room to sign Kanter before trading Rozier and taking back Kemba and going over the cap, right?

Unless it's all in one big old trade. For instance.

Sign Morris to $11M, sign Langford, wait 30 days....

BOS: Morris, Langford, Rozier, Yabusele, Baynes ($40.9M) => Enough to bring Kemba (32.7) and Turner ($18M) back.
IND: Turner for Morris, Langford, Yabusele, MIL 2020. Numbers match almost exactly, so no problem
CHA/PHO: you know.

Maybe we throw in another pick, say BOS 2021? Pretty good deal for Indiana if they wanna go Goga and get the IU guy, and Morris for now. Not sure if Morris would like IND, but he'd like the $. Made a little more sense for them pre-Lamb, but still could now.

Anywho, there are some scenarios out there. But, I don't see how you can do it with Morris as a separate trade.

Or do you still get to use the room exception on Kanter if you're $1 below?

Room exception doesn't count against the cap space.

[zoyathedestroya]

Spoiler:

Mathematically possible because of our cap space:
Getting Kemba, Beal, Capela
Losing Smart, Brown, S&T'd Morris, S&T'd Rozier, Baynes, Yabusele, Williams OR Ojeleye, at least 3 1st round picks

TRADE 1:
WAS gets Brown, Smart, Yabusele, Williams, 2020 MEM 1st, 2020 MIL 1st
CHA gets Rozier
BOS gets Beal, Kemba, Edwards (32nd pick)
PHO gets Baynes, 24th pick

TRADE 2:
HOU gets Morris, 2020 BOS 1st
BOS gets Capela

Kemba / Beal / Tatum / Hayward / Capela*
Edwards / Langford / Ojeleye / G.Williams / Kanter
vet PG / vet SG /vet SF / Theis

*Capela or Myles Turner

Tax team but below the apron by $3.6M. Hard-capped.

Forget this scenario. I just tried if it was mathematically possible. IT IS! But 0.00000000001% chance of happening lol.

EDIT: THIS IS ALSO WRONG.

[williambh3]

This is some fantastic cappery folks. As for possible targets, is jamychal still out there? Probably hinges on that guy who hasnt decided yet

[williambh3]

This is some fantastic cappery folks. As for possible targets, is jamychal still out there? Probably hinges on that guy who hasnt decided yet

Not that i have a problem with beal and capela