Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

[th87]

“Not at all. Before I came to Milwaukee I’d heard the city was the most segregated in the country. I’d heard it was racist."

Before he came to Milwaukee, he "heard" the studies and likely heard about the cop shootings. What about his statement is inaccurate in the least?

Never said it was or wasn't inaccurate. Again, it all comes back to the definition of segregation.

The enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.
Is Milwaukee segregated by that definition ?

1. Let's recap what you actually said:

I find his segregation comment hilarious and stupid, but best to not go there.

“Not at all. Before I came to Milwaukee I’d heard the city was the most segregated in the country. I’d heard it was racist."

So you find it "hilarious and stupid" that he *heard* that Milwaukee was segregated/racist. Why is this? Are you really saying he couldn't have heard that it was segregated/racist? That he never read a study?

2. Let's talk about what you're goalpost-moving into:

Milwaukee is defined by academic studies as being heavily segregated. You trying to apply a narrower definition to absolve Milwaukee of this is...hilarious and stupid.

"Milwaukee allows everybody to drink from the same fountains! No segregation!"

Here's a better definition:

Racial segregation is the systemic separation of people into racial or other ethnic groups in daily life.

You tell me if Milwaukee is segregated by that definition. The studies do.

[sdn40]

Before he came to Milwaukee, he "heard" the studies and likely heard about the cop shootings. What about his statement is inaccurate in the least?

Never said it was or wasn't inaccurate. Again, it all comes back to the definition of segregation.

The enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.
Is Milwaukee segregated by that definition ?

1. Let's recap what you actually said:

I find his segregation comment hilarious and stupid, but best to not go there.

“Not at all. Before I came to Milwaukee I’d heard the city was the most segregated in the country. I’d heard it was racist."

So you find it "hilarious and stupid" that he *heard* that Milwaukee was segregated/racist. Why is this? Are you really saying he couldn't have heard that it was segregated/racist? That he never read a study?

2. Let's talk about what you're goalpost-moving into:

Milwaukee is defined by academic studies as being heavily segregated. You trying to apply a narrower definition to absolve Milwaukee of this is...hilarious and stupid.

"Milwaukee allows everybody to drink from the same fountains! No segregation!"

Here's a better definition:

Racial segregation is the systemic separation of people into racial or other ethnic groups in daily life.

You tell me if Milwaukee is segregated by that definition. The studies do.

I also said that a conversation was fruitless, and I was right.
I also said from the jump that the word segregation was an emotionally charged complicated term and how one defines it can determine a lot. I stand by that.
I didn't move goalposts. That may be your perception.
I tried, but it's a dead end conversation.

[paulpressey25]

Guys, let’s come back to the trade please and just simply stipulate that for whatever reason(s) Malcolm preferred to play elsewhere.

[th87]

Never said it was or wasn't inaccurate. Again, it all comes back to the definition of segregation.

The enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.
Is Milwaukee segregated by that definition ?

1. Let's recap what you actually said:

I find his segregation comment hilarious and stupid, but best to not go there.

“Not at all. Before I came to Milwaukee I’d heard the city was the most segregated in the country. I’d heard it was racist."

So you find it "hilarious and stupid" that he *heard* that Milwaukee was segregated/racist. Why is this? Are you really saying he couldn't have heard that it was segregated/racist? That he never read a study?

2. Let's talk about what you're goalpost-moving into:

Milwaukee is defined by academic studies as being heavily segregated. You trying to apply a narrower definition to absolve Milwaukee of this is...hilarious and stupid.

"Milwaukee allows everybody to drink from the same fountains! No segregation!"

Here's a better definition:

Racial segregation is the systemic separation of people into racial or other ethnic groups in daily life.

You tell me if Milwaukee is segregated by that definition. The studies do.

I also said that a conversation was fruitless, and I was right.
I also said from the jump that the word segregation was an emotionally charged complicated term and how one defines it can determine a lot. I stand by that.
I didn't move goalposts. That may be your perception.
I tried, but it's a dead end conversation.

Your expectation of a fruitful conversation depends on torturing basic logic. I'm sorry I can't do that for you.

[Chuck Diesel]

Guys, let’s come back to the trade please and just simply stipulate that for whatever reason(s) Malcolm preferred to play elsewhere.

That’s the crux of it though. We don’t know Malcolm wanted to play elsewhere. For all we know he was hoping the Bucks matched.

[dsilby]

If you were able to divine all this, then the Bucks are stupid for not trading him as soon as they figured this out. He would've fetched a pretty good return as part of a package (Conley maybe), and not protected picks and a TPE that can't afford anyone that good.

Either way this was bad asset management.

If you want to talk about bad assessments, let's break down your post.


You are not going to trade Malcom Brogdon in the middle of the season when he's healthy and the team is rolling. You want to call the Bucks stupid, that would be stupid.
Then later on, nobody knew he was going to get hurt for the final 1/4 or so of the season and the first two round of the playoffs, he didn't have much value then.

Second, and most important. Mike Conley?
First of all, his contract. He comes with a salary of 32mil this season and 34mil the season after. No way at all can the Bucks take on that contract from him.
Next. The Jazz gave up Jae Crowder, Kyle Korver, Grayson Allen and a first round pick to the Grizzlies for Conley.
So what is this "Brogdon Package" you speak of that you think the Bucks should have done that's on par with that?
Not to mention, the Bucks didn't even have any first round picks to give.

Next.
The Bucks turned Brogdon into a 1st, 2 seconds, Wes Matthews, Robin Lopez and a savings of 15 million.

If you want to call that stupid, it's your right.

[soxperry]

If you were able to divine all this, then the Bucks are stupid for not trading him as soon as they figured this out. He would've fetched a pretty good return as part of a package (Conley maybe), and not protected picks and a TPE that can't afford anyone that good.

Either way this was bad asset management.

If you want to talk about bad assessments, let's break down your post.


You are not going to trade Malcom Brogdon in the middle of the season when he's healthy and the team is rolling. You want to call the Bucks stupid, that would be stupid.
Then later on, nobody knew he was going to get hurt for the final 1/4 or so of the season and the first two round of the playoffs, he didn't have much value then.

Second, and most important. Mike Conley?
First of all, his contract. He comes with a salary of 32mil this season and 34mil the season after. No way at all can the Bucks take on that contract from him.
Next. The Jazz gave up Jae Crowder, Kyle Korver, Grayson Allen and a first round pick to the Grizzlies for Conley.
So what is this "Brogdon Package" you speak of that you think the Bucks should have done that's on par with that?
Not to mention, the Bucks didn't even have any first round picks to give.

Next.
The Bucks turned Brogdon into a 1st, 2 seconds, Wes Matthews, Robin Lopez and a savings of 15 million.

If you want to call that stupid, it's your right.

Lopez and Matthews are independent of what you are talking about. You are talking about return on investment or return on player control, although i understand why you mentioned those two players.

I liked Brogdon a lot but he wasnt worth nearly what he was paid, especially given his injury history. He's a very nice piece but fringe all stars are replaceable. Getting a 1st and two 2nds is an okay return, provided the 1st doesnt have strict protections, but to me it really hinges on the TPE. If we can get a playoff useful, 12M player along with this, its a slam dunk.

Im assuming he will be asked to shoot more in Indy given his salary. I guarantee you his efficiency goes down significantly as his attempts go up. That offense wont generate as many open looks for him and he will have to create jump shots on his own. Hes not really capable of that. So either his efficiency goes down or he just keeps deferring and doesnt live up to the contract.

[Swan Vox]

Have to admit, I’m sad. Loved The President from day 1. Everything about the way he played screamed champion and class. If integrity were being measured, I’d say Malcolm would be a super-Star top 5 player in the league. I think his fortitude will be missed.

That being said, Horst did decently salvaging a few assets out of the situation. We were running low on picks and it’s nice to have a few as ammunition for future moves.

This was a tough situation to be in cap-wise and having so many free agents.

I will rest easy knowing we still have a Giannis.

[Licensed to Il]

Did we get the Pacers' 2020 first round pick? What kind of protections were on it? As I look over Indiana's projected lineup, with Oladipo out until January... I think there is a real solid possibility that they scrap and claw but find themselves around .500

If Brogdon's foot acts up, or he misses time like he has in past seasons, that quickly becomes a lotto team.

Just to be clear, I am not rooting for either of those two guys to get or stay hurt. But VO is missing half the season at the least, and Malcolm is not exactly a warrior who gives you 82 each year.

I'm in a weird place because I like and respect a lot of the Pacers' moves, I enjoy rooting for them, and yet, they are not exactly a juggernaut.

Just something to keep an eye on.

[paulpressey25]

^^^this is why the Pacers pick protection info really important.

If it is top 20 protected and then converts to two seconds the following year if not conveyed, meh.

If its top 14 (lotto) protects and then declines to top 10, etc, that is good value.

[humanrefutation]

The Bucks turned Brogdon into a 1st, 2 seconds, Wes Matthews, Robin Lopez and a savings of 15 million.

I don't think the Robin Lopez and Wes Matthews contracts have much to do with letting Brogdon walk. Robin Lopez is signing via an exception that I believe would have still been available to us even if we matched Brogdon's contract offer, and Matthews is a league minimum deal.

I don't give two **** about the "savings" for LED.

The first and 2 seconds is fine (need to see the actual protections, if any), though it begs the question as to whether we would have been pleased with that return if we traded him for that price six months ago or six months from now.

[leroyjw10]

An oft-overlooked aspect of Brogdon's game is his ability to step up in the clutch (last 5 minutes). See the stats below.

12.7 net rating (2nd on team behind only Lopez's 12.8)
100.6 defensive rating (1st)
17.5 assist ratio (2nd among regulars)
82.7 effective FG% (1st among regulars)
85.5 (!!!) true shooting percentage (1st among regulars)
65.4% overall shooting (1st among regulars)
75% 3-point shooting on 5.1 3PA/36 (1st among regulars)
100% (!!!) FT% (t-1st)

Dude straight up got it done in the clutch. (For reference, Midds had 35/37/87 splits.)

https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-advanced/?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612749

[jmart762]

Woj made an interesting connection this morning on SC. Because Mirotic went to Spain, Utah went big at Bojan, which caused the Pacers to go after Brogdon. Interesting ripple effect, and makes you wonder if we could have played it differently with Mirotic if we could have kept Brogdon somehow.

[humanrefutation]

Brogdon was absolutely a clutch player. He was one of those guys who I always thought wouldn't shrink from the moment if he had an open shot late in the game. If he stays healthy, I have no doubt he's going to have a long career of making clutch shots.

The biggest issue is his inability to create on his own outside of his dribble drives, but truthfully, I'd be more than happy with a player who can hit threes and make high-percentage shots at the rim with consistency.

[craig]

I haven't read all the posts, but of the many pages I have read, there has been much reference to Brogdon's offensive qualities (and limitations.) But a huge part of his value was his defensive ability, and consistency. I'll really miss him, seemed like a terrific well-rounded guy. Outstanding defense; really good creator via the drive; excellent 3-point shooter; very accommodating team guy who didn't need lots of shots to be effective. Calm and good in the clutch. If he stays healthy, Indiana is going to be very happy with what he brings them.

Nothing stays the same, of course, and in many ways the Bucks window of opportunity may have been at it's very widest this past season. The Bucks have a bunch of really old, veteran guys (Lopez, Lopez, Hill, Matthews, Ersan, that's a lot of really old rotation guys, and Midds is heavily used as well....) So perhaps that window will close very quickly, beats me. And obviously replacing Brogdon's all-around quality of play will be difficult.

But that window sure isn't closed, that's for sure.

If Kawai leaves, perhaps the east will actually be even easier to get through? Who knows.

Obviously part of what I love as a fan is seeing younger players emerge. It would be really cool if we saw useful development from Sterling, DJ, and DDV. Development from some or all of those guys could impact how flexible and injury-resilient the team will be.

[leroyjw10]

Obviously part of what I love as a fan is seeing younger players emerge. It would be really cool if we saw useful development from Sterling, DJ, and DDV. Development from some or all of those guys could impact how flexible and injury-resilient the team will be.

Agreed totally. They need to find a balance between trying to win now with a bunch of vets while still developing young guys like the above. I like both Ersan and Wes, but I really hope DJ and Sterling get more minutes than both, respectively.

[crkone]

Read on Twitter

Awesome

[lvckv]

Thought it wouldn't be any more than lotto-protected. Nice.

[leroyjw10]

Read on Twitter

Awesome

Given Dipo's injury, I'd currently guess it conveys next year in the late teens. Not too shabby.

[crkone]

Thought it wouldn't be any more than lotto-protected. Nice.

I'm just glad it doesn't look like it's some dumb 1st round turns into 2 2nds thing.