Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[djFan71]

I don't understand that arithmetic at all, unless you skipped a step or are misinterpreting BYC. Looks like ~$1 million left over to me.

Terry's cap hold of $9.1M is counted to get you to $19M. Then you only subtract the difference between his real contract and the cap hold. All #s are slightly fuzzy, but that's the gist.

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

Nope. The bold is what you're missing.
We can be $1 below the cap, then trade Yabu, Rozier (on new contract signed under cap, so no BYC) and Baynes for Kemba and end up over the cap. Outgoing salary for those 3 is $26.9, incoming $32.7M. That just works with the 125%/$100k rule for trades where the team ends up over the cap.

Order:
Renounce everyone but Rozier & Theis. $19.710652M free.
Sign Rozier to $18.412698M, remove hold: $9.15117M => $10.449124 free.
* Rozier signed under cap, so no BYC, counts full $ outgoing in later trade.
Sign free agent to up to that $10.4M, still under cap.
Sign Kanter to room exception $4.767M. Over cap.
3 team trade with CHA/PHO send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu get back Rozier, MIL pick from PHO.

Discussing details of the numbers with Zoya, but they're close enough - would only affect the $10.4M to sign a free agent.

[zoyathedestroya]

I don't understand that arithmetic at all, unless you skipped a step or are misinterpreting BYC. Looks like ~$1 million left over to me.

Terry's cap hold of $9.1M is counted to get you to $19M. Then you only subtract the difference between his real contract and the cap hold. All #s are slightly fuzzy, but that's the gist.

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

It all depends on our order of transactions. What we're proposing is to NOT absorb Kemba's salary into our cap space.

We would be using the salary matching rules as if we're an over-the-cap team.

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

Celtics can take on 125% of outgoing salary. + 100,000. Kemba's 1st yr salary is $32,742,000.00. Celtics need at least $26,113,600.00 to satisfy matching rules.

1. Renounce FAs except Rozier and Theis.
2. Sign Rozier to his new contract.
3. Use available cap space to absorb salary in trade or sign FA.
4. Execute trade. It's fine to go over the cap post-trade since salary matching rules for over-the-cap teams are met.
5. Sign 1st round rookies using rookie exception.
6. Sign Kanter using room exception.
7. Sign Edwards using veteran's minimum exception.
8. Sign other vets as needed using veteran's minimum exception.
No MLE or BAE.

[Celts17Pride]

If this scenario is legit then the Celtics are doing this for the Morris brothers in my opinion. That’s why rumors about either have been quiet

[zoyathedestroya]

I don't think my MKG scenario works. I was using the full cap space, but we need to sign Kanter first. I assume you can't use the Room MLE Exception if you don't end up over the cap after it, but I'm not sure.

$19.710652M free.
Sign Rozier to $18.412698M, remove hold: $9.15117M => $10.449124 free
Sign Kanter to $4.767M: $5.682124M free. No room mle since under cap still????
3 team trade with CHA/PHO send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu, Semi => $28.6
+ free cap = $34.2M. Need $36.48M to take MKG back.

You can sign Kanter last even after every offseason transaction has been done. Room exception doesn't count against cap space.

[djFan71]

I don't think my MKG scenario works. I was using the full cap space, but we need to sign Kanter first. I assume you can't use the Room MLE Exception if you don't end up over the cap after it, but I'm not sure.

$19.710652M free.
Sign Rozier to $18.412698M, remove hold: $9.15117M => $10.449124 free
Sign Kanter to $4.767M: $5.682124M free. No room mle since under cap still????
3 team trade with CHA/PHO send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu, Semi => $28.6
+ free cap = $34.2M. Need $36.48M to take MKG back.

You can sign Kanter last even after every offseason transaction has been done. Room exception doesn't count against cap space.

We can use the "room" exception when we're over the cap?

[djFan71]

I don't think my MKG scenario works. I was using the full cap space, but we need to sign Kanter first. I assume you can't use the Room MLE Exception if you don't end up over the cap after it, but I'm not sure.

$19.710652M free.
Sign Rozier to $18.412698M, remove hold: $9.15117M => $10.449124 free
Sign Kanter to $4.767M: $5.682124M free. No room mle since under cap still????
3 team trade with CHA/PHO send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu, Semi => $28.6
+ free cap = $34.2M. Need $36.48M to take MKG back.

You can sign Kanter last even after every offseason transaction has been done. Room exception doesn't count against cap space.

We can use the "room" exception when we're over the cap?

Actually, I think you're right.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

- This exception is available only to teams that drop far enough below the cap to use cap room, and therefore lose their Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 26). This exception cannot be used if the team already has used the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level or Taxpayer Mid-Level exception. This exception becomes available once the team salary drops far enough that the team loses its other exceptions, and expires following the last day of the regular season. It allows a team to sign any free agent to a contract with a starting salary up to the following

Nothing about losing it if you go over the cap afterwards!

[zoyathedestroya]

You can sign Kanter last even after every offseason transaction has been done. Room exception doesn't count against cap space.

We can use the "room" exception when we're over the cap?

Actually, I think you're right.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

- This exception is available only to teams that drop far enough below the cap to use cap room, and therefore lose their Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 26). This exception cannot be used if the team already has used the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level or Taxpayer Mid-Level exception. This exception becomes available once the team salary drops far enough that the team loses its other exceptions, and expires following the last day of the regular season. It allows a team to sign any free agent to a contract with a starting salary up to the following

Nothing about losing it if you go over the cap afterwards!

Yep. Think of it as a consolation freebie for operating under the cap lol.
As long as you sign your FA near the end (after Kemba trade which puts us over the cap), it shouldn't count against your cap room.

[sam_I_am]

Terry's cap hold of $9.1M is counted to get you to $19M. Then you only subtract the difference between his real contract and the cap hold. All #s are slightly fuzzy, but that's the gist.

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

It all depends on our order of transactions. What we're proposing is to NOT absorb Kemba's salary into our cap space.

We would be using the salary matching rules as if we're an over-the-cap team.

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

Celtics can take on 125% of outgoing salary. + 100,000. Kemba's 1st yr salary is $32,742,000.00. Celtics need at least $26,113,600.00 to satisfy matching rules.

1. Renounce FAs except Rozier and Theis.
2. Sign Rozier to his new contract.
3. Use available cap space to absorb salary in trade or sign FA.
4. Execute trade. It's fine to go over the cap post-trade since salary matching rules for over-the-cap teams are met.

If we send out 32 million we can take back 40 million plus 100k. However, that means signing and trading another 12 million player (could we pay Theis that much for 1 year), finding a 3rd team willing to pay a FA 8 million to send back to us and take on 12 million. Or we take an 8 million player back from Charlotte while finding team willing to take 12 mil sign and trade from us. I can’t see that happening.

Edit: Can we not relinquish Morris cap hold, sign him and trade him like we are doing with Rozier as part of multi team trade and bring back a 9 million free agent?

[Fencer reregistered]

How can we wind up over the cap after trading Rozier yet still not have the BYC-like 50% rule apply to his outgoing salary?

Terry's cap hold of $9.1M is counted to get you to $19M. Then you only subtract the difference between his real contract and the cap hold. All #s are slightly fuzzy, but that's the gist.

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

It all depends on our order of transactions. What we're proposing is to NOT absorb Kemba's salary into our cap space.

We would be using the salary matching rules as if we're an over-the-cap team.

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

Celtics can take on 125% of outgoing salary. + 100,000. Kemba's 1st yr salary is $32,742,000.00. Celtics need at least $26,113,600.00 to satisfy matching rules.

1. Renounce FAs except Rozier and Theis.
2. Sign Rozier to his new contract.
3. Use available cap space to absorb salary in trade or sign FA.
4. Execute trade. It's fine to go over the cap post-trade since salary matching rules for over-the-cap teams are met.
5. Sign 1st round rookies using rookie exception.
6. Sign Kanter using room exception.
7. Sign Edwards using veteran's minimum exception.
8. Sign other vets as needed using veteran's minimum exception.
No MLE or BAE.

[zoyathedestroya]

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

It all depends on our order of transactions. What we're proposing is to NOT absorb Kemba's salary into our cap space.

We would be using the salary matching rules as if we're an over-the-cap team.

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

Celtics can take on 125% of outgoing salary. + 100,000. Kemba's 1st yr salary is $32,742,000.00. Celtics need at least $26,113,600.00 to satisfy matching rules.

1. Renounce FAs except Rozier and Theis.
2. Sign Rozier to his new contract.
3. Use available cap space to absorb salary in trade or sign FA.
4. Execute trade. It's fine to go over the cap post-trade since salary matching rules for over-the-cap teams are met.

If we send out 32 million we can take back 40 million plus 100k. However, that means signing and trading another 12 million player (could we pay Theis that much for 1 year), finding a 3rd team willing to pay a FA 8 million to send back to us and take on 12 million. Or we take an 8 million player back from Charlotte while finding team willing to take 12 mil sign and trade from us. I can’t see that happening.

Edit: Kemba salary is 35 m so that means we could send out 15 mil plus Rozier and take back almost 9 mil salary

Kemba 1st year salary is $32,742,000.00. Celtics only need to send out $26,113,600.00. Rozier ($18.4) + Yabu ($3.1) + Baynes ($5.4) would cover it. Phoenix would have to agree to expand the earlier reported trade.

The $10.8M cap space was the remaining space after our FAs were renounced and Rozier was signed to his new contract. That amount can be used in a separate trade (absorb salary) or sign an FA.

Only then would you execute the Kemba-Rozier trade.

[zoyathedestroya]

BYC is only triggered after signing Rozier, not after trading him. We sign Rozier into cap space, so in this case, no BYC.

If a team re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction, the player's new salary is greater than the minimum, he receives a raise greater than 20%, and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q93

How can we wind up over the cap after trading Rozier yet still not have the BYC-like 50% rule apply to his outgoing salary?

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

It all depends on our order of transactions. What we're proposing is to NOT absorb Kemba's salary into our cap space.

We would be using the salary matching rules as if we're an over-the-cap team.

As described in question number 84, a team below the cap may disregard salaries when making trades, as long as the team finishes no more than $100,000 above the cap as the result of a trade. However, a team below the cap can choose to use the trade rules for teams above the cap if it works to the team's advantage. For example, if a team is $1 million below the cap, then by using the trade rules for teams below the cap it can trade an $8 million player for a player making up to $9.1 million. By using the rules in place for teams above the cap, the team could trade the $8 million player for a player making up to $13 million.

Celtics can take on 125% of outgoing salary. + 100,000. Kemba's 1st yr salary is $32,742,000.00. Celtics need at least $26,113,600.00 to satisfy matching rules.

1. Renounce FAs except Rozier and Theis.
2. Sign Rozier to his new contract.
3. Use available cap space to absorb salary in trade or sign FA.
4. Execute trade. It's fine to go over the cap post-trade since salary matching rules for over-the-cap teams are met.
5. Sign 1st round rookies using rookie exception.
6. Sign Kanter using room exception.
7. Sign Edwards using veteran's minimum exception.
8. Sign other vets as needed using veteran's minimum exception.
No MLE or BAE.

[brackdan70]

Terry's cap hold of $9.1M is counted to get you to $19M. Then you only subtract the difference between his real contract and the cap hold. All #s are slightly fuzzy, but that's the gist.

I'm still not getting it.
1. We need to still be under the cap after Kemba's salary is added.
2. After renouncing multiple FAs (or seeing them sign contracts w/ other teams), and assuming Baynes and Rozier go out in currently anticipated trades, we will have barely enough cap room after all those departures to absord Kemba's salary.

Absent a change in part #1 of that, where's the wiggle room?

Nope. The bold is what you're missing.
We can be $1 below the cap, then trade Yabu, Rozier (on new contract signed under cap, so no BYC) and Baynes for Kemba and end up over the cap. Outgoing salary for those 3 is $26.9, incoming $32.7M. That just works with the 125%/$100k rule for trades where the team ends up over the cap.

Order:
Renounce everyone but Rozier & Theis. $19.710652M free.
Sign Rozier to $18.412698M, remove hold: $9.15117M => $10.449124 free.
* Rozier signed under cap, so no BYC, counts full $ outgoing in later trade.
Sign free agent to up to that $10.4M, still under cap.
Sign Kanter to room exception $4.767M. Over cap.
3 team trade with CHA/PHO send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu get back Rozier, MIL pick from PHO.

Discussing details of the numbers with Zoya, but they're close enough - would only affect the $10.4M to sign a free agent.

Kudos. You guys are getting into it.

I thought...and I could certainly be mistaken. BYC comes into play with any sign and trade regardless of cap situation?

Edit. Just read Zoya’s Post above....hmmm

[zoyathedestroya]

...

Have you seen my post on the numbers? We're only off by the amount of Demetrius Jackson's dead/stretched money. Your original calculations were correct apart from that bit. That's without Baynes. I also posted the cap space if we still had Baynes on the books.

[djFan71]

I think we can end up with both a $3.3M-ish FA and MKG/Hernangomez:

$19.710652M free with just Theis & Rozier holds.
Rescind Theis and add roster hold, save $0.905328M => 20.61598M
Sign Rozier to $18.412698M, remove hold: $9.15117M => $11.354452 free
Sign FA to $3.3M. => $8M left.
3 team trade with CHA/PHO send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu, Semi => $28.6
+ free cap = $36.6M. Need $36.48M to take MKG back.
Over cap.
Sign Kanter to room MLE.

Gets us to $125M, well under tax.
-------------
Maybe get Vonleh (or other) for $3.3M? More than vet min at least.

Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, RWIII
Smart, Langford, MKG, Vonleh, Kanter
Edwards, GWill, Hernangomez, vet min (Zaza, Pau, Nene)
Room for vet min or Waters/Fall.

Tradeable contracts in MKG, Vonleh, Kanter totaling ~$21M without touching your core.

[djFan71]

...

Have you seen my post on the numbers? We're only off by the amount of Demetrius Jackson's dead/stretched money. Your original calculations were correct apart from that bit. That's without Baynes. I also posted the cap space if we still had Baynes on the books.

No, dang it. Lost it in all the notifications!
Stupid, cuz I have DJax on there in the "to use" column, but managed to delete him from the "count this" column. Argh. Well, I think my last MKG/Willy/Vonleh idea still works with that fudge factor in there.

[zoyathedestroya]

Have you seen my post on the numbers? We're only off by the amount of Demetrius Jackson's dead/stretched money. Your original calculations were correct apart from that bit. That's without Baynes. I also posted the cap space if we still had Baynes on the books.

No, dang it. Lost it in all the notifications!
Stupid, cuz I have DJax on there in the "to use" column, but managed to delete him from the "count this" column. Argh. Well, I think my last MKG/Willy/Vonleh idea still works with that fudge factor in there.

I'll look into the scenario you laid out. So you want either MKG or Hernangomez coming back along with Kemba and Theis renounced? And hopefully enough space to another FA in the $3.3M range?

[djFan71]

Have you seen my post on the numbers? We're only off by the amount of Demetrius Jackson's dead/stretched money. Your original calculations were correct apart from that bit. That's without Baynes. I also posted the cap space if we still had Baynes on the books.

No, dang it. Lost it in all the notifications!
Stupid, cuz I have DJax on there in the "to use" column, but managed to delete him from the "count this" column. Argh. Well, I think my last MKG/Willy/Vonleh idea still works with that fudge factor in there.

I'll look into the scenario you laid out. So you want either MKG or Hernangomez coming back along with Kemba and Theis renounced? And hopefully enough space to another FA in the $3.3M range?

Both MKG & Hernangomez. We send Semi this time too to wash out Willy's contract. Seems to work. The $3.3M is rough estimate - basically: free cap before trade - $8M cap needed for it.

[djFan71]

No, dang it. Lost it in all the notifications!
Stupid, cuz I have DJax on there in the "to use" column, but managed to delete him from the "count this" column. Argh. Well, I think my last MKG/Willy/Vonleh idea still works with that fudge factor in there.

I'll look into the scenario you laid out. So you want either MKG or Hernangomez coming back along with Kemba and Theis renounced? And hopefully enough space to another FA in the $3.3M range?

Both MKG & Hernangomez. We send Semi this time too to wash out Willy's contract. Seems to work. The $3.3M is rough estimate - basically: free cap before trade - $8M cap needed for it.

Argh... dang it. I didn't have Willy in the number above. Need 37.84 going out, which washes that FA step back to roughly vet min.

Ah well....

[brackdan70]

If this scenario is legit then the Celtics are doing this for the Morris brothers in my opinion. That’s why rumors about either have been quiet

This makes me sad

Hope not

[djFan71]

If this scenario is legit then the Celtics are doing this for the Morris brothers in my opinion. That’s why rumors about either have been quiet

This makes me sad

Hope not

I tend to agree, but it could be to trade Mook elsewhere. We'll find out once kawhi decides.