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Pat Riley

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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#101 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 7:34 pm

BBallFreak wrote:That's just patently false. First, we are closer to a championship. If things go right, we're a legitimate playoff team. Last year, the best we could hope for was being a borderline playoff team. If you're actually in the post season you're closer than if you're not in the post season. No reason we should miss this year unless Jimmy gets injured.

Second, Riley didn't make just one move, he made a flurry of them. He dumped Whiteside, sent Harkless and a heavily protected first to LA, and traded Josh for Jimmy and Meyers Leonard. He also drafted Herro and Okpala, both of whom I believe will be very good.

This offseason has been a homerun for Pat Riley so far...

This is simply wrong. In 2001 we finished back to back 50+ win seasons ... in 2003 we finished with 25 wins.

Which of those teams was closer to the championship?

Moving up the standings moves you down the draft order. This would be fine if the guy we chose to be our foundation piece was good enough to lead the team all the way to the top. But he's not. We're going to end up right back in Mourning/Hardaway territory. The same place we would have ended up post Lebron had Bosh's health not gone to hell. We're just going to end up treadmilling higher up in the standings and getting bounced from the playoffs in the 1st or 2nd round every year. You need one of the top guys in the game in order to give yourself a legitimate shot at winning a championship. You can get that guy by way or trade or free agency or the draft, but you need that guy. Butler is not that guy. Almost no one believes that he is. Butler is a ~ "top 5" player in the eastern conference, not in the NBA. He's also reaching the end of his prime. And we know that he doesn't play well with others.

Our new "leader" needs to be potty trained in leadership ... at the age of 30. Currently he seems to think that simply barking at teammates, trashing them to the media, and humiliating them, is how you lead. It's not.

People talk about this not being Pat's last move. Well unless one of those moves is packaging Butler for a better player, then this move is doomed to fail. Butler is not good enough to be #1 on a championship team, and he will not tolerate being #2.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#102 » by BBallFreak » Tue Jul 2, 2019 7:43 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:That's just patently false. First, we are closer to a championship. If things go right, we're a legitimate playoff team. Last year, the best we could hope for was being a borderline playoff team. If you're actually in the post season you're closer than if you're not in the post season. No reason we should miss this year unless Jimmy gets injured.

Second, Riley didn't make just one move, he made a flurry of them. He dumped Whiteside, sent Harkless and a heavily protected first to LA, and traded Josh for Jimmy and Meyers Leonard. He also drafted Herro and Okpala, both of whom I believe will be very good.

This offseason has been a homerun for Pat Riley so far...

This is simply wrong. In 2001 we finished back to back 50+ win seasons ... in 2003 we finished with 25 wins.

Which of those teams was closer to the championship?


Really poor logic. You get better, yet somehow you're no closer to a championship than when you were worse?

It just makes no sense. Jimmy Butler is a star player. Star players in this day and age are absolutely essential to winning rings. We had no star player. Now we do.

Common sense says we're closer. The first domino has fallen.

Moving up the standings moves you down the draft order. This would be fine if the guy we chose to be our foundation piece was good enough to lead the team all the way to the top. But he's not. We're going to end up right back in Mourning/Hardaway territory. The same place we would have ended up post Lebron had Bosh's health not gone to hell. We're just going to end up treadmilling higher up in the standings and getting bounced from the playoffs in the 1st or 2nd round every year. You need one of the top guys in the game in order to give yourself a legitimate shot at winning a championship. You can get that guy by way or trade or free agency or the draft, but you need that guy. Butler is not that guy. Almost no one believes that he is. Butler is a ~ "top 5" player in the eastern conference, not in the NBA. He's also reaching the end of his prime. And we know that he doesn't play well with others.

Our new "leader" needs to be potty trained in leadership ... at the age of 30. Currently he seems to think that simply barking at teammates, trashing them to the media, and humiliating them, is how you lead. It's not.

People talk about this not being Pat's last move. Well unless one of those moves is packaging Butler for a better player, then this move is doomed to fail. Butler is not good enough to be #1 on a championship team, and he will not tolerate being #2.

The problem here is that you don't think creatively. Being at the top of the draft can yield great things. Sure, I admit that. It can also yield Jahlil Okafor, Nerlens Noel, Markelle Fultz, and Michael Carter-Williams.

The draft is NOT the only way to build.

The process, historically speaking, doesn't work!
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#103 » by DayofMourning » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:00 pm

“The Process” has is as good a method as any. Warriors built their team predominantly through. Thunder built a Finals team as well. If not for crazy injuries, Portland would have had a beastly trio.

I’d blame any issues with teams not being successful on the operations and ownership of the team. Not every business is built well enough to succeed. The same teams suffer for years because of this. Once you establish some credibility, then things will change.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#104 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:30 pm

BBallFreak wrote:Really poor logic.

When I figure out a better way of explaining it, I'll give it another shot.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#105 » by BBallFreak » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:32 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Really poor logic.

When I figure out a better way of explaining it, I'll give it another shot.

You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#106 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:48 pm

BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Really poor logic.

When I figure out a better way of explaining it, I'll give it another shot.

You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#107 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:50 pm

DayofMourning wrote:“The Process” has is as good a method as any. Warriors built their team predominantly through. Thunder built a Finals team as well. If not for crazy injuries, Portland would have had a beastly trio.

I’d blame any issues with teams not being successful on the operations and ownership of the team. Not every business is built well enough to succeed. The same teams suffer for years because of this. Once you establish some credibility, then things will change.

Can you clarify that part?
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#108 » by JustiseForMiami » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:51 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:When I figure out a better way of explaining it, I'll give it another shot.

You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.



if Bosh was fully healthy, I am very confident we would've beat LeBron to go to the ship that year.

Goran
Wade
Deng
Bosh
Whiteside

with Joe Johnson, rook 1, rook 2 off the bench?!

We lost in game 7 because Biyombo ate Whitesides lunch.

Bosh we roll them
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#109 » by BBallFreak » Tue Jul 2, 2019 8:57 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:When I figure out a better way of explaining it, I'll give it another shot.

You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.

First, why do you assume that Butler will be the best player on the team when Riley is done? He signed Wade and Bosh in 2010. Did Wade stay the best player on that team, or did Riley make another big move?

Second, yes, having a star player absolutely gets us a lot closer, whether we get there or not. You don't win without them in this league, so having one is preferable to not having one. It's a pretty obvious and logical jump.

Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#110 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:04 pm

JustiseForMiami wrote:
contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.



if Bosh was fully healthy, I am very confident we would've beat LeBron to go to the ship that year.

Goran
Wade
Deng
Bosh
Whiteside

with Joe Johnson, rook 1, rook 2 off the bench?!

We lost in game 7 because Biyombo ate Whitesides lunch.

Bosh we roll them


The 2 years after Lebron left ... we were 48-49 when Bosh played ... and 37-30 when he didn't.

Bosh was not that guy.

And if you think Bosh was ever going to beat Lebron ... :noway:
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#111 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:16 pm

BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.

First, why do you assume that Butler will be the best player on the team when Riley is done? He signed Wade and Bosh in 2010. Did Wade stay the best player on that team, or did Riley make another big move?

Second, yes, having a star player absolutely gets us a lot closer, whether we get there or not. You don't win without them in this league, so having one is preferable to not having one. It's a pretty obvious and logical jump.

Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...

Well first of all because there are only a few superstars in the NBA. Unless Pat can land Kawhi ...

Image

Those guys are just not available right now.

But also because Butler didn't come to Miami to play 2nd fiddle to anyone. He could have stayed in Philly to compete for a championship. He could have headed to LA to compete for a championship. Instead he came to a team where he could be the man. If we managed to snag a player as good or better than Butler, he's going to become a problem.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#112 » by Maroko » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:17 pm

Exclusive : The Dallas trade in one gif !

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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#113 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:19 pm

BBallFreak wrote:Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...

I don't think he's going to stop. It wouldn't make any sense to stop. My main problem is that I believe that our initial move was a flawed one. IMO Pat's impatience got the better of him ... again.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#114 » by BBallFreak » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:20 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.

First, why do you assume that Butler will be the best player on the team when Riley is done? He signed Wade and Bosh in 2010. Did Wade stay the best player on that team, or did Riley make another big move?

Second, yes, having a star player absolutely gets us a lot closer, whether we get there or not. You don't win without them in this league, so having one is preferable to not having one. It's a pretty obvious and logical jump.

Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...

Well first of all because there are only a few superstars in the NBA. Unless Pat can land Kawhi ...

Image

Those guys are just not available right now.

But also because Butler didn't come to Miami to play 2nd fiddle to anyone. He could have stayed in Philly to compete for a championship. He could have headed to LA to compete for a championship. Instead he came to a team where he could be the man. If we managed to snag a player as good or better than Butler, he's going to become a problem.
Yeah, I'm not buying it. If you honestly think Riley is done and that he's going to settle for this roster, then you just haven't been paying attention...
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#115 » by BBallFreak » Tue Jul 2, 2019 9:21 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...

I don't think he's going to stop. It wouldn't make any sense to stop. My main problem is that I believe that our initial move was a flawed one. IMO Pat's impatience got the better of him ... again.
His impatience has gotten them better of him to the tune of three championships. I'll take his impatience over your process and day off the week.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#116 » by DayofMourning » Tue Jul 2, 2019 10:24 pm

contract wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:“The Process” has is as good a method as any. Warriors built their team predominantly through. Thunder built a Finals team as well. If not for crazy injuries, Portland would have had a beastly trio.

I’d blame any issues with teams not being successful on the operations and ownership of the team. Not every business is built well enough to succeed. The same teams suffer for years because of this. Once you establish some credibility, then things will change.

Can you clarify that part?


Sam Hinkie led reform was dubbed The Process. Netted a ton of draft capital. Rebuilt a team going nowhere fast into one with two foundational pieces that almost knocked off the champs.

Many draft oriented teams have done well. Keeping those teams together is another story all together.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#117 » by contract » Tue Jul 2, 2019 10:47 pm

BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...

I don't think he's going to stop. It wouldn't make any sense to stop. My main problem is that I believe that our initial move was a flawed one. IMO Pat's impatience got the better of him ... again.
His impatience has gotten them better of him to the tune of three championships. I'll take his impatience over your process and day off the week.

Drafting Dwyane Wade instead of Chris Kaman accomplished that.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#118 » by BBallFreak » Tue Jul 2, 2019 10:56 pm

contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:I don't think he's going to stop. It wouldn't make any sense to stop. My main problem is that I believe that our initial move was a flawed one. IMO Pat's impatience got the better of him ... again.
His impatience has gotten them better of him to the tune of three championships. I'll take his impatience over your process and day off the week.

Drafting Dwyane Wade instead of Chris Kaman accomplished that.

And trading for Shaq. And what was at the time the largest trade in NBA history. And signing Zo, Payton, and the Andersons. And clearing the books to sign the Big 3. And signing Ray Allen, Shane Battier, and Birdman.

But who's counting? It's a hell of a lot more fun to pretend like Riley was just an innocent bystander in everything and had nothing to do with going to the Finals five times in the last 13 years, huh?

Look, I'm done dealing with this. You can keep quoting me, but I'm not playing this game anymore. I've been around too long and seen arguments far better than yours turn to complete crap when Riley inevitably pulls a rabbit out of his hat and makes this team better than anyone ever expected. He's one of the most successful GM's of all time, and certainly the most successful we've ever had. You keep right on trashing him, though. Just do it without my input. This thread is a dumpster fire, today. Riley's trolled you guys, again...
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#119 » by DWadeno3 » Wed Jul 3, 2019 9:06 am

BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.

First, why do you assume that Butler will be the best player on the team when Riley is done? He signed Wade and Bosh in 2010. Did Wade stay the best player on that team, or did Riley make another big move?

Second, yes, having a star player absolutely gets us a lot closer, whether we get there or not. You don't win without them in this league, so having one is preferable to not having one. It's a pretty obvious and logical jump.

Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...


In 2010, we had the capspace in order to sign Wade, James and Bosh. To accomplish that, we wasted two years of Wade's prime from 2008 to 2010 by not adding any talent on long-term contracts. Riley had a vision and didn't want to sacrifice anything for it and it paid off.

In recent years, however, no patience and no vision have been visible. After the departure of LeBron, which admittedly handcuffed us in free agency, we simply had an off-year health wise in 2014/15 and missed the playoffs. We followed that up with a good 2015/16 season which included the emergence of Whiteside and the additions of Dragic and Joe Johnson mid-season. We were stopped in game 7 of the second of the playoffs, this with Bosh being out due to blood-clot issues. Had we still had him, we could've at least given the Cavs a run for their money in the ECFs.

From there on, it's a vast downhill track. In the 2016 offseason, we had the Wade contract issues, causing him to leave for Chicago. Bosh had major health issues and it was likely he was never gonna be able to play again, if that wasn't already decided at that point, I'm not sure anymore. Either way, we attempted to sign Durant and struck out on him. We signed Whiteside to a max deal, which was alright. Other than that, we should've just used that season to tank and acquire assets. Instead, we signed the likes of Dion Waiters and added Tyler Johnson's balloon contract.

Nonetheless, we still added a nice player in the 2017 draft with Bam Adebayo. Other than that, I'd describe the 2017 offseason as a trainwreck. We added Dion Waiters and James Johnson to massive long-term deals, added Kelly Olynyk, whom I like as a player, to a massive contract as well and were on the verge of TJ's salary exploding soon enough. While we didn't have our draft pick in 2018 due to us sending him out in the Dragic trade, we didn't need to handcuff us for the foreseeable future either.
The TJ contract was ultimately flipped for Ryan Anderson's contract.

Instead of having cap flexibility this year, we are tied to the likes of Waiters and Johnson and Olynyk. That's poor planning without a true vision if I've ever seen it. Riley has usually always had some sort of longer term plan, but as he gets older and time as the president of the Heat gets shorter for him, he seems to be impatient and a little more short-sighted. What reason did he have to sign Waiters, Johnson and Olynyk to the contracts he signed them to?

Without the contracts of Waiters, Johnson, Olynyk and the aftermath of Tyler Johnson, we could've possibly had a max contract slot while having a foundation of Dragic, Whiteside, Winslow, Adebayo, Richardson and Derrick Jones Jr. And even if it wasn't a max contract slot, we could've easily created one, if not two by moving Whiteside and Dragic. I admittedly didn't calculate it all the way through, especially under CBA rules, but either way, we could've had much more flexibility at the cost of maybe having a few poor seasons instead of barely making/missing the playoffs.


Now to the current situation: We have added Butler, an all-star caliber player, but not the lead guy on a championship team. It's a nice piece to have, if you have the opportunity to add other nice pieces, which I don't see us having. We have Dragic, Winslow and Adebayo left as assets. Who are we supposed to land with such a package?
I'm pretty sure Olynyk and Johnson will opt in next year and Waiters will still be under contract, so we also won't have massive cap flexiblity next summer. And even if we do, which major free agents are gonna be on the market next summer? I don't see many.

Thus I ask myself: Who are we supposed to add over the time of Butler still being, at least somewhat, in his prime? And do we expect him to sit through two poor seasons after the trouble he caused with the Timberwolves, just for the sake of us potentially being able to add a quality free agent in 2021?

Riley has greatly improved our roster in the past but even he can't work miracles and he is also not free of mistakes. In recent years, I think he's committed more of them than usual and it deserves to be pointed out, despite the greatness he has shown over so many years in Miami. It's not that I want him gone, I just want him to have more of a vision than he currently has.
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Re: Pat Riley 

Post#120 » by SCHeat » Wed Jul 3, 2019 2:55 pm

BBallFreak wrote:
contract wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:You do that, but a star player brings us closer, no matter how you slice it. That is an undeniable fact.

This is the equivalent of arguing that re-signing Bosh gave us a better chance to win a championship than if we had let him walk. Forgetting the health stuff. Chris Bosh in a million years was never going to lead a team to the championship. Never. Ever. We could have brought in Dragic and every other player that supposedly fit perfectly around him, and it still wasn't going to happen. He wasn't that guy.

Every step forward may seem like an advancement, but if you're not headed in the right direction ... you may in fact be getting further from your goal.

First, why do you assume that Butler will be the best player on the team when Riley is done? He signed Wade and Bosh in 2010. Did Wade stay the best player on that team, or did Riley make another big move?

Second, yes, having a star player absolutely gets us a lot closer, whether we get there or not. You don't win without them in this league, so having one is preferable to not having one. It's a pretty obvious and logical jump.

Finally, when have you ever known Riley to stop trying to make his team better? You cannot possibly believe this is where he's going to stop. This isn't the final roster, it's the first step. Buckle up, kid. It's going to be a hell of a ride...


I'm convinced our plan is to get two more stars in 2020 and see how we stack up in the East.

The Raptors and Celtics could be about to take a big step back in the next two years. If we can get Giannis and one other star then perhaps we can compete with the Nets.

I'm not saying this will happen, just saying that it's the plan.

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