Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[djFan71]

No, that's why I highlighted that part of the original FAQ question. The common usage of the term TPE is just the left over salary when you send out more than you take back. But a TPE in the full sense of it IS created in each scenario where the salaries don't match over the cap - the traded player exception, ie TPE, is what allows it to be legal and happen if the salaries are within the 125%/100k and you end up over the cap after the trade.

The only weird part of the scenario here is that it's not just salary being with 125%. It's remaining cap + outgoing salary being within that.

OK. But the rules still say that you can't use the full salary of a sign-and-trade to make the numbers work in the case of a big raise like Rozier's, if the deal winds up with you being over the cap. And in any other case than a sign-and-trade, there's a substantial delay between the time you sign a guy and the time you're allowed to trade him.

Since Rozier is being signed under the cap, he won't be BYC (so counts full salary), and it should be cool to S&T even though we end up over the cap at the end of the trade is the thought process.

I will add, you are picking at the exact scabs Zoya and I started this thread with. We weren't sure at all on either and batted it around a bunch and ended up pretty comfortable we've answered them satisfactorily. But, we're fully aware we could be wrong still. Yay, sports accounting!

[Fencer reregistered]

No, that's why I highlighted that part of the original FAQ question. The common usage of the term TPE is just the left over salary when you send out more than you take back. But a TPE in the full sense of it IS created in each scenario where the salaries don't match over the cap - the traded player exception, ie TPE, is what allows it to be legal and happen if the salaries are within the 125%/100k and you end up over the cap after the trade.

The only weird part of the scenario here is that it's not just salary being with 125%. It's remaining cap + outgoing salary being within that.

OK. But the rules still say that you can't use the full salary of a sign-and-trade to make the numbers work in the case of a big raise like Rozier's, if the deal winds up with you being over the cap. And in any other case than a sign-and-trade, there's a substantial delay between the time you sign a guy and the time you're allowed to trade him.

Since Rozier is being signed under the cap, he won't be BYC (so counts full salary), and it should be cool to S&T even though we end up over the cap at the end of the trade is the thought process.

And for the reasons I stated, the thought process is incorrect. See in particular Section 96 of the FAQ. You can't trade a guy for three months after you sign him unless he's in a sign-and-trade. And if he's in a sign-and-trade, of course, then the BYC rules apply based on your salary cap situation at the end of the trade.

[djFan71]

OK. But the rules still say that you can't use the full salary of a sign-and-trade to make the numbers work in the case of a big raise like Rozier's, if the deal winds up with you being over the cap. And in any other case than a sign-and-trade, there's a substantial delay between the time you sign a guy and the time you're allowed to trade him.

Since Rozier is being signed under the cap, he won't be BYC (so counts full salary), and it should be cool to S&T even though we end up over the cap at the end of the trade is the thought process.

And for the reasons I stated, the thought process is incorrect. See in particular Section 96 of the FAQ. You can't trade a guy for three months after you sign him unless he's in a sign-and-trade. And if he's in a sign-and-trade, of course, then the BYC rules apply based on your salary cap situation at the end of the trade.

I don't think you're reading #93 correctly.

...and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing1, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

1. The team salary being over the cap immediately following the signing is what triggers this rule. It does not matter whether the team was under the cap prior to the signing, nor whether the team is under the cap subsequent to the trade.

[jfs1000d]

So, what’s the benefit to us doing a S&T with Kemba/Rozier over just bringing him into cap space? We have an asset coming our way? Any cap help?


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[Fencer reregistered]

It looks like you're correct!

I regret the insistent error.

Since Rozier is being signed under the cap, he won't be BYC (so counts full salary), and it should be cool to S&T even though we end up over the cap at the end of the trade is the thought process.

And for the reasons I stated, the thought process is incorrect. See in particular Section 96 of the FAQ. You can't trade a guy for three months after you sign him unless he's in a sign-and-trade. And if he's in a sign-and-trade, of course, then the BYC rules apply based on your salary cap situation at the end of the trade.

I don't think you're reading #93 correctly.

...and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing1, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

1. The team salary being over the cap immediately following the signing is what triggers this rule. It does not matter whether the team was under the cap prior to the signing, nor whether the team is under the cap subsequent to the trade.

[djFan71]

It looks like you're correct!

I regret the insistent error.

Which really means Zoya was correct, and I finally learned something after 8 pages of my persistent error.
I really wish there was something as concrete to point to on the other piece on combining free cap/outgoing salary.

So, what’s the benefit to us doing a S&T with Kemba/Rozier over just bringing him into cap space? We have an asset coming our way? Any cap help?

Options is the big thing. Cap manipulation, future trade setup mainly, but also the opportunity to do something via FA/trade now as an under the cap team before officially acquiring Kemba and going over. By doing it as a trade we have the option to take on an additional $10-12Mish in salary depending on the particulars. Maybe we get an asset for taking a really bad contract, maybe it's a push with Yabu, but we end up with a larger contract for future trades, maybe we get back a better player, etc. Just opens some options.

We're at 15 players now, but if you send out Yabu in the S&T, you open a spot and a window to sign someone for up to $10M before completing the trade. Or trade for someone, etc. FA market may not have many $10M players left in it, but Morris is one of them and his cap hold lets us use him in S&T as well, if it makes sense and we can get assets back with that.

My baseline scenario is just send Yabu out, get MKG back from CHA. Saves them $10M and get us a bigger contract for deadline trades. Maybe they give us a 2nd rounder, maybe not.

Anyways, options.

[zoyathedestroya]

Yeah, still really iffy on that using cap space as an entity/player to combine with other salaries to match thing. It feels like cheating lol.

It looks like you're correct!

I regret the insistent error.

Which really means Zoya was correct, and I finally learned something after 8 pages of my persistent error.
I really wish there was something as concrete to point to on the other piece on combining free cap/outgoing salary.

So, what’s the benefit to us doing a S&T with Kemba/Rozier over just bringing him into cap space? We have an asset coming our way? Any cap help?

Options is the big thing. Cap manipulation, future trade setup mainly, but also the opportunity to do something via FA/trade now as an under the cap team before officially acquiring Kemba and going over. By doing it as a trade we have the option to take on an additional $10-12Mish in salary depending on the particulars. Maybe we get an asset for taking a really bad contract, maybe it's a push with Yabu, but we end up with a larger contract for future trades, maybe we get back a better player, etc. Just opens some options.

We're at 15 players now, but if you send out Yabu in the S&T, you open a spot and a window to sign someone for up to $10M before completing the trade. Or trade for someone, etc. FA market may not have many $10M players left in it, but Morris is one of them and his cap hold lets us use him in S&T as well, if it makes sense and we can get assets back with that.

My baseline scenario is just send Yabu out, get MKG back from CHA. Saves them $10M and get us a bigger contract for deadline trades. Maybe they give us a 2nd rounder, maybe not.

Anyways, options.

[zoyathedestroya]

Updated to reflect Theis & Wanamaker potential signings.

Three plus days left so I'm hoping we pull off something special. 'Cos it would be a waste if we couldn't come up with something creative to beef up our roster. Not necessarily expecting another star but mid-tier talent (bench scoring), a couple more vets, and some shooting. And I really don't want Kanter to be our starting center.

But if we're done, it would look something like this:

1) Renounce every FA except Rozier and Theis.
2) Sign Rozier to 3-yr/$58M contract starting at $18,412,698.00.
3) Trade Baynes to Phoenix as reported on draft night.
4) Trade Rozier for Kemba (signed to the max*). Unsure if Hornets will throw an asset our way.
*Kemba's salary is absorbed into our cap space. No MLE/no BAE/no TPE.
5) Sign Edwards to a 4-year deal w/ remaining cap space.
6) Sign Theis using Early Bird exception.
7) Sign Kanter w/ the room exception.
8) Sign Langford and G.Williams to rookie deals.
9) Sign Poirier to the veteran's minimum.
10) Sign Brad Wanamaker to the veteran's minimum.
11) Sign two-way guys (Waters, ??)

DONE.

Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / Ojeleye / G. Williams / R.Williams
Wanamaker / Edwards / Yabusele / Theis / Poirier

Below $120M estimate. Well under the tax threshold.
Two-way: Waters, ??

[djFan71]

Updated to reflect Theis & Wanamaker potential signings.

Spoiler:

Three plus days left so I'm hoping we pull off something special. 'Cos it would be a waste if we couldn't come up with something creative to beef up our roster. Not necessarily expecting another star but mid-tier talent (bench scoring), a couple more vets, and some shooting. And I really don't want Kanter to be our starting center.

But if we're done, it would look something like this:

1) Renounce every FA except Rozier.
2) Sign Rozier to 3-yr/$58M contract starting at $18,412,698.00.
3) Trade Baynes to Phoenix as reported on draft night.
4) Trade Rozier for Kemba (signed to the max*). Unsure if Hornets will throw an asset our way.
*Kemba's salary is absorbed into our cap space. No MLE/no BAE/no TPE.
5) Sign Edwards to a 4-year deal w/ remaining cap space.
6) Sign Theis using Early Bird Rights.
7) Sign Kanter w/ the room exception.
8) Sign Langford and G.Williams to rookie deals.
9) Sign Poirier to the veteran's minimum.
10) Sign Brad Wanamaker to the veteran's minimum.
11) Sign two-way guys (Waters, ??)

DONE.

Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / Ojeleye / G. Williams / R.Williams
Wanamaker / Edwards / Yabusele / Theis / Poirier

Below $120M estimate. Well under the tax threshold.
Two-way: Waters, ??

So much more fun if we get to use the sofa money.

[sully00]

So, what’s the benefit to us doing a S&T with Kemba/Rozier over just bringing him into cap space? We have an asset coming our way? Any cap help?


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In theory we get to keep Morris' cap hold otherwise there has been no word.

[zoyathedestroya]

If nothing comes out of this S&T dream and cap gymnastics, I believe the real offseason gain is the friends that we made along the way.

[djFan71]

If nothing comes out of this S&T dream and cap gymnastics, I believe the real offseason gain is the friends that we made along the way.

Love ya, man, but you know I'd add you to the deal if it meant getting a top 65 protected 2nd rounder.

[Andrew McCeltic]

What changes if we’ve signed Theis into cap space instead of using his early bird?

[Fencer reregistered]

What changes if we’ve signed Theis into cap space instead of using his early bird?

Nothing. At least, there are no favorable changes. Anyway, it's hard to describe a situation in which that would be a meaningful distinction.

[brackdan70]

If nothing comes out of this S&T dream and cap gymnastics, I believe the real offseason gain is the friends that we made along the way.

I also learned a couple things I didn’t know...cheers

[Andrew McCeltic]

What changes if we’ve signed Theis into cap space instead of using his early bird?

Nothing. At least, there are no favorable changes. Anyway, it's hard to describe a situation in which that would be a meaningful distinction.

Except he’d be non-BYC for trades in December

[CelticsLV]

What changes if we’ve signed Theis into cap space instead of using his early bird?

Nothing. At least, there are no favorable changes. Anyway, it's hard to describe a situation in which that would be a meaningful distinction.

Except he’d be non-BYC for trades in December

BYC only applys in case of a S&T.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Nothing. At least, there are no favorable changes. Anyway, it's hard to describe a situation in which that would be a meaningful distinction.

Except he’d be non-BYC for trades in December

BYC only applys in case of a S&T.

It lasts three months, I think

[CelticsLV]

Except he’d be non-BYC for trades in December

BYC only applys in case of a S&T.

It lasts three months, I think

3 months is the period during which a signed free agent can't be traded. It's either 3 months or December 15, whichever is later. FAs who are now signed can't be traded until December 15.

BYC doesn't last. BYC applys only DURING
sign-and-trade transaction if certain conditions are met.

And sign-and-trade isn't the same thing as signing a free agent just to trade it later.

[Fencer reregistered]

BYC only applys in case of a S&T.

It lasts three months, I think

3 months is the period during which a signed free agent can't be traded. It's either 3 months or January 15, whichever is later. FAs who are now signed can't be traded until January 15.

BYC doesn't last. BYC applys only DURING
sign-and-trade transaction if certain conditions are met.

And sign-and-trade isn't the same thing as signing a free agent just to trade it later.

Correct. As per my previous post, the 3 month rule applies to signings that are NOT S&Ts. (Obviously, it doesn't apply to S&Ts by definition of "S&T".) BYC, however, applies only to S&Ts.