Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[zoyathedestroya]

Yeah, but - Ainge liked him years ago - he played a career low in minutes last season - and swapping him for Baynes/Yabu would save the Hornets about 5 million dollars - and the two smaller contracts would be easier to move on their own.

Would it be possible to include Baynes in the Walker trade and then have Charlotte move him to Phoenix immediately afterward?

Semi has to be included to absorb MKG's salary too. I personally wouldn't do it.

If it's just Kemba, trade would look something like...
BOS gets Kemba, 32nd pick, 2020 MIL 1st
CHA gets Rozier
PHO gets Baynes, 24th pick
4th team w/ TPE gets Yabu, cash

And what’s the benefit for us in that permutation? The temporary 9 million dollar window to sign someone?

Baynes/Yabu/Semi for MKG I’d probably do - you can replace Semi with a vet minimum player, and MKG’s expiring could be a useful trade chip.. Semi would probably have more opportunity with the Hornets, and he was a great developmental find in the second round, but you can give the vet minimum to DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson without skipping more than a quarter of a beat..

Taking the hypothetical scenario discussion back here... so as not to derail the offseason thread.

I'm fine with either path.

Choice 1: Use the $9M to sign FA or absorb a player in a trade before executing Kemba trade.
Choice 2: The Kemba/MKG trade you just described.

Both options will secure us a huge trade chip for later on.

[zoyathedestroya]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

[djFan71]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

Wouldn't need TPE the 2nd scenario with MKG outgoing, right?

I always forget on the first scenario, can you take one salary back for kemba (rozier) and use TPE for another (Yabu) within a single transaction? For us it has to be one trade for Kemba's salary.

[zoyathedestroya]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

Wouldn't need TPE the 2nd scenario with MKG outgoing, right?

I always forget on the first scenario, can you take one salary back for kemba (rozier) and use TPE for another (Yabu) within a single transaction? For us it has to be one trade for Kemba's salary.

On our end, it doesn't matter whether they use the Dwight TPE or not. Scenario 1 for us we need to satisfy matching rule. Scenario 2 we absorb all salaries into cap space.

It's on the Hornets how they absorb our salaries. Instead of letting the Howard TPE expire, they could use it on Semi and Yabu. I'm unsure about this part but I think they can create a TPE worth $13M for MKG and a TPE worth $14.3 for Kemba. Not using the Howard TPE would reduce the amount of the Kemba or MKG TPE.

[djFan71]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

Wouldn't need TPE the 2nd scenario with MKG outgoing, right?

I always forget on the first scenario, can you take one salary back for kemba (rozier) and use TPE for another (Yabu) within a single transaction? For us it has to be one trade for Kemba's salary.

On our end, it doesn't matter whether they use the Dwight TPE or not. Scenario 1 for us we need to satisfy matching rule. Scenario 2 we absorb all salaries into cap space.

It's on the Hornets how they absorb our salaries. Instead of letting the Howard TPE expire, they could use it on Semi and Yabu. I'm unsure about this part but I think they can create a TPE worth $13M for MKG and a TPE worth $14.3 for Kemba. Not using the Howard TPE would reduce the amount of the Kemba or MKG TPE.

For us, it has to be a single transaction, beyond that, yep, we don't care how they take the salary back. But I was wondering can they legally use Kemba salary ($16.35) to absorb Rozier and TPE to absorb the rest and have it still count as a single transaction? If so, great. If not and it has to technically be a separate transaction to use the TPE, it wouldn't work for us.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I'd take most of the bigs. I don't think the guards/wings get enough PT to rehab their value on our squad anyway, so not super interested in them. Other than as salary. Jabari I think I've given up on. He's already had 2 teams take fliers, no need for us to.

Ntilikina doesn’t need a ton of playing time, he just needs the right environment - he’s a better gamble than Yabu..

And Parker right now is trending like Michael Beasley, but Chicago was an awful environment and it’s possible the trade to Washington, and the release from his contract, plus his limited value, could be a wake up call for him - and/or Danny thinks he can talk Mormon to him.. Green and Morris are the only two players on that list who are impactful - I’d rather gamble on Parker, Lyles, Bender or Ntilikina than bring back Jae Crowder..

Definitely on the bolded. Frank's a wing I would take on. Lyles/Bender if we had the spot, but you would probably need to trade Yabu and someone else at this point. They definitely wouldn't be worth the $9M (as you mentioned). I almost like MKG as a project as much as any of those guys, though.

Nance Jr/Grant could be interesting, depending on cost. But I assume their teams like them as well.
Green & Morris are playing for one of the 2 LA teams, imo, so probably not realistic.

I could be happy with using Semi/Yabu to get MKG, then taking on Bender or Lyles.

Or some other trade we haven't thought of yet.

MKG is past the project point unless he can miraculously fix his shot - not sure the market for Lyles, but you might be able to do him and Bender to add even more frontcourt depth - but Lyles may be looking for more steady minutes than he’s had in Denver, if he wants to leave.. and he’s very very uneven - Bender would be a Patrick O’Bryant style investment - hoping a change of scenery and more time in the weight room turns him into a player within a year or two.

Ntilikina probably isn’t feasible with Edwards and Waters onboard, but he has size and length and he can defend three positions at a very high level already..

My ideal scenarios would probably be Jabari/keeping Ojeleye and Yabu/Baynes/Semi out, Ntilikina/Bender(/Kemba) in..

Jabari/Ntilikina probably isn’t possible - Jabari/Bender might be..

It’s possible our FO is cool on all three - or doesn’t want to add more “rookies” - but they would be low risk high reward bets, and the opportunity cost for the last couple of spots on the roster would be low..

[djFan71]

Ntilikina doesn’t need a ton of playing time, he just needs the right environment - he’s a better gamble than Yabu..

And Parker right now is trending like Michael Beasley, but Chicago was an awful environment and it’s possible the trade to Washington, and the release from his contract, plus his limited value, could be a wake up call for him - and/or Danny thinks he can talk Mormon to him.. Green and Morris are the only two players on that list who are impactful - I’d rather gamble on Parker, Lyles, Bender or Ntilikina than bring back Jae Crowder..

Definitely on the bolded. Frank's a wing I would take on. Lyles/Bender if we had the spot, but you would probably need to trade Yabu and someone else at this point. They definitely wouldn't be worth the $9M (as you mentioned). I almost like MKG as a project as much as any of those guys, though.

Nance Jr/Grant could be interesting, depending on cost. But I assume their teams like them as well.
Green & Morris are playing for one of the 2 LA teams, imo, so probably not realistic.

I could be happy with using Semi/Yabu to get MKG, then taking on Bender or Lyles.

Or some other trade we haven't thought of yet.

MKG is past the project point unless he can miraculously fix his shot - not sure the market for Lyles, but you might be able to do him and Bender to add even more frontcourt depth - but Lyles may be looking for more steady minutes than he’s had in Denver, if he wants to leave.. and he’s very very uneven - Bender would be a Patrick O’Bryant style investment - hoping a change of scenery and more time in the weight room turns him into a player within a year or two.

Ntilikina probably isn’t feasible with Edwards and Waters onboard, but he has size and length and he can defend three positions at a very high level already..

My ideal scenarios would probably be Jabari/keeping Ojeleye and Yabu/Baynes/Semi out, Ntilikina/Bender(/Kemba) in..

Jabari/Ntilikina probably isn’t possible - Jabari/Bender might be..

It’s possible our FO is cool on all three - or doesn’t want to add more “rookies” - but they would be low risk high reward bets, and the opportunity cost for the last couple of spots on the roster would be low..

I'm not sure MKG is any less fixable than the rest. He's an amazing defender, so that helps you get on any court, esp. Stevens'. We should just grab him and Frank and somehow keep Semi (not doing the math to see it's not possible) and roll out:

Smart, Frank, Semi, MKG, Williams.

Sure, we won't score, but you probably won't either!

[zoyathedestroya]

Wouldn't need TPE the 2nd scenario with MKG outgoing, right?

I always forget on the first scenario, can you take one salary back for kemba (rozier) and use TPE for another (Yabu) within a single transaction? For us it has to be one trade for Kemba's salary.

On our end, it doesn't matter whether they use the Dwight TPE or not. Scenario 1 for us we need to satisfy matching rule. Scenario 2 we absorb all salaries into cap space.

It's on the Hornets how they absorb our salaries. Instead of letting the Howard TPE expire, they could use it on Semi and Yabu. I'm unsure about this part but I think they can create a TPE worth $13M for MKG and a TPE worth $14.3 for Kemba. Not using the Howard TPE would reduce the amount of the Kemba or MKG TPE.

For us, it has to be a single transaction, beyond that, yep, we don't care how they take the salary back. But I was wondering can they legally use Kemba salary ($16.35) to absorb Rozier and TPE to absorb the rest and have it still count as a single transaction? If so, great. If not and it has to technically be a separate transaction to use the TPE, it wouldn't work for us.

I believe it still counts as a single transaction. Can't recall particular examples but it has been done before.

[CelticsLV]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

The structure of Terry's deal is a mystery. 18 000 000 in first year with 8% raises would fit as 3y/58m

For the Hornets Walker would count only as 50% outgoing salary, right? So they could take back
16 371 000 + 5 000 000 = 21 371 000

Rozier + Yabs + cash for Walker would work.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Also, Semi/Yabu for MKG would give us

Kemba/Smart/Wanamaker
Brown/Langford
Hayward/MKG
Tatum/Grant W
Kanter/Rob W/Theis/Poirier

That’s 13 players, room for one vet minimum signing - then Edwards, Tacko and Waters as the 15th man and two-way players..

Who would be the vet minimum pickup in that case?

[zoyathedestroya]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

It's really hard to tell what's the salary for Terry in his first year. 18 000 000 with 8% raises would fit as 3y/58m

For the Hornets Walker would count only as 50% outgoing salary, right? So they could take back
16 371 000 + 5 000 000 = 21 371 000

Rozier + Yabs + cash for Walker would work.

It can only be 5% raises for S&T'd players. Starting is likely $18,412,698.
So I guess they really have to use Dwight's TPE to absorb Yabu's salary. Otherwise, it goes to a 4th team.

[zoyathedestroya]

Also, Semi/Yabu for MKG would give us

Kemba/Smart/Wanamaker
Brown/Langford
Hayward/MKG
Tatum/Grant W
Kanter/Rob W/Theis/Poirier

That’s 13 players, room for one vet minimum signing - then Edwards, Tacko and Waters as the 15th man and two-way players..

Who would be the vet minimum pickup in that case?

Hopefully a shooter.

[CelticsLV]

BTW, Hornets have the Dwight Howard TPE ($7.82M) they can use to just absorb Yabu. Celtics just add cash to cover Yabu's salary for the year. No need for a 4th team. Hornets don't get close to tax line anyway.

EDIT: Or Yabu + Semi if it's for Kemba/MKG.

It's really hard to tell what's the salary for Terry in his first year. 18 000 000 with 8% raises would fit as 3y/58m

For the Hornets Walker would count only as 50% outgoing salary, right? So they could take back
16 371 000 + 5 000 000 = 21 371 000

Rozier + Yabs + cash for Walker would work.

It can only be 5% raises for S&T'd players. Starting is likely $18,412,698.
So I guess they really have to use Dwight's TPE to absorb Yabu's salary. Otherwise, it goes to a 4th team.

Yeah...

But TPEs can't be used in combination with players. This trade wouldn't work from salary matching standpoint. Rozier + Yabs is more than Hornets can take back in this trade.

4th team it is then.

[zoyathedestroya]

It's really hard to tell what's the salary for Terry in his first year. 18 000 000 with 8% raises would fit as 3y/58m

For the Hornets Walker would count only as 50% outgoing salary, right? So they could take back
16 371 000 + 5 000 000 = 21 371 000

Rozier + Yabs + cash for Walker would work.

It can only be 5% raises for S&T'd players. Starting is likely $18,412,698.
So I guess they really have to use Dwight's TPE to absorb Yabu's salary. Otherwise, it goes to a 4th team.

Yeah...

But TPEs can't be used for salary matching in combination with players. This trade wouldn't work from salary matching standpoint. Rozier + Yabs is more than Hornets can take back in this trade.

4th team it is then.

Or maybe Rozier's contract is a bit smaller than originally reported?

[Zaschrona]

I like possibilities that we would have after trading for MKG. He is a solid role player and as an expiring also an usable contract for a possible mid season trade for some great player. I am in.

[sam_I_am]

MKG could probably play PF like Jae Crowder used to. Nice juicy expiring contact.

[zoyathedestroya]

I like possibilities that we would have after trading for MKG. He is a solid role player and as an expiring also an usable contract for a possible mid season trade for some great player. I am in.

...if our assumptions and calculations are correct. Devil is in the details. And we may not be as devilish as Zarren. Still fun trying to figure out what else we could do though. (Yeah, I have a weird definition for fun.)

[djFan71]

I wonder if we really need to include Semi in the deal due to #24. The hold affects our cap BEFORE the trade. But, #24 is included in the trade, so the cap hold comes off and increases our cap space at the same time we need it. Right?????

[zoyathedestroya]

I wonder if we need to include Semi in the deal due to #24. The hold affects our cap BEFORE the trade. But, #24 is included in the trade, so the cap hold comes off and increases our cap space at the same time we need it. Right?????

I was thinking about this too. But the other way around. We will lose cap space.

So we have:
1. Hayward
2. Smart
3. Tatum
4. Brown
5. R.WIlliams
6. Yabu
7. Ojeleye
8. Rozier hold
9. Theis hold
10. Langford hold
11. G.Wiliams hold
12. Baynes
13. #24

Am I missing someone?

If it's a 5-for-2 trade (Rozier/Baynes/Yabu/Semi/#24) for (Kemba/MKG), wouldn't we need an extra two cap holds? That would eat up into our cap space.

[djFan71]

It's really hard to tell what's the salary for Terry in his first year. 18 000 000 with 8% raises would fit as 3y/58m

For the Hornets Walker would count only as 50% outgoing salary, right? So they could take back
16 371 000 + 5 000 000 = 21 371 000

Rozier + Yabs + cash for Walker would work.

It can only be 5% raises for S&T'd players. Starting is likely $18,412,698.
So I guess they really have to use Dwight's TPE to absorb Yabu's salary. Otherwise, it goes to a 4th team.

Yeah...

But TPEs can't be used in combination with players. This trade wouldn't work from salary matching standpoint. Rozier + Yabs is more than Hornets can take back in this trade.

4th team it is then.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, inelegantly, with my single transaction thingy...