Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[Andrew McCeltic]

What happens if we trade the pick to Phoenix in a pre-deal and don’t execute the Baynes trade yet? Does that open up space, followed by the Baynes to Phoenix, Kemba to Boston, Yabu to Charlotte deal?

Complicated at best, as worst I think you run into the Doc Rivers issue. Can't have 2 separate trades that are contingent upon each other.

NBA gonna smell that from a thousand miles away.

Maybe, although we originally made the Phoenix trade without Baynes, which would help our case.

[zoyathedestroya]

Complicated at best, as worst I think you run into the Doc Rivers issue. Can't have 2 separate trades that are contingent upon each other.

NBA gonna smell that from a thousand miles away.

Maybe, although we originally made the Phoenix trade without Baynes, which would help our case.

We did? What was the original one?
I thought it was always 24th, Baynes for 2020 MIL 1st.

FWIW, the trade w/ Philly -- 20th pick for 24th and 33rd picks -- is already logged in the RealGM list of transactions. The trade w/ Phoenix isn't yet. They could've easily made that official (by July 1st) already unless they have something else planned.

[djFan71]

I'm wondering if/hoping our space is enough cap space to rent in any of the deals that become official / happen after Sir Kawhi deigns us with a decision. Is the Philly one the only one pending?

[CelticsLV]

Yes, as I said earlier, the BYC rules kill any S&T involving Kemba unless the Nets or the Sixers agree to a sign and trade involving Kyrie or Horford. And why should they?

Kemba counts for only 16M to Charlotte, but the full 32M to the Celtics. Rozier would count 18M to Charlotte, but only 9M to the Celtics. So the salary match works on Charlotte's end, but not on the Celtics side. And if the Celtics load other contracts into the deal, it starts not to work for Charlotte.

Rozier would count fully for both teams. One of the main conditions for BYC is ending up over the cap after signing the player you want to sign-and-trade. Rozier's first year doesn't bring Celtics over the cap so BYC rules are not satisfied.

Zoya already broke it down.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, but the Celtics want to stay over the cap. They don't want to take Kemba into cap space. That's the point of a sign and trade-- to get the full MLE.

If there's a way, Zarren will find it. I can't.

[CelticsLV]

Yes, but the Celtics want to stay over the cap. They don't want to take Kemba into cap space. That's the point of a sign and trade-- to get the full MLE.

If there's a way, Zarren will find it. I can't.

We are discussing different scenario that has nothing to do with full MLE. As you said, Nets and Sixers have no incentives to help us with Kyrie/Horford sign-and-trade.

A scenario that would give Celtics some $9M cap room to be used before doing Rozier sign-and-trade.

[Curmudgeon]

Cap room is bad because it only leaves you with the room exception. The don't need cap room to sign Kanter (room exception), Poirier (vet minimum) or Theis (early bird rights).

Once they sign Theis that mythical 9M goes away, but maybe if they time it right it's useful. Obviously Yabu would also have to be going to Charlotte in that scenario.

[djFan71]

Cap room is bad because it only leaves you with the room exception. The don't need cap room to sign Kanter (room exception), Poirier (vet minimum) or Theis (early bird rights).

Once they sign Theis that mythical 9M goes away, but maybe if they time it right it's useful. Obviously Yabu would also have to be going to Charlotte in that scenario.

The whole thread has been about exactly that timing, and discussing what players need to be sent to CHA at what price and how cap holds affect thing, etc. You've caught up a little it seems, but still behind on a few things like Yabu and when Theis would be signed.

[djFan71]

Cap room is bad because it only leaves you with the room exception. The don't need cap room to sign Kanter (room exception), Poirier (vet minimum) or Theis (early bird rights).

Once they sign Theis that mythical 9M goes away, but maybe if they time it right it's useful. Obviously Yabu would also have to be going to Charlotte in that scenario.

The whole thread has been about exactly that timing, and discussing what players need to be sent to CHA at what price and how cap holds affect thing, etc. You've caught up a little it seems, but still behind on a few things like Yabu and when Theis would be signed.

BTW, I'm only being snarky with you because you came into the thread without having read it, and told us we're wrong about things you were wrong about or things we already knew and had discussed like you were teaching us stuff, and calling our math "mythical." But, here's a basic recap:

Yes, being over the cap is better. We can't do that without S&T of Al or Kyrie, neither of which the other teams need, or trading players we don't want to trade. So, we pivoted to being under the cap.

With cap holds for picks, Baynes, Rozier, Theis & #24 (which hasn't been officially traded yet), we have about $6.8M space left to sign FA or absorb salary into while reserving enough money to sign Rozier at a high enough salary so that he & Baynes will be enough for the Kemba trade alone - not needing Yabu. Therefor, you can include Yabu in a trade before the Kemba one.

$20.66032M for Rozier, declining 5%/year gets you just above the reported figure for his contract - difference being the final cap #s bumped Kemba's max up from $32.7M to $32.742M since the initial Terry report.

You could also do it where Terry starts at $18.412698M, but then you DO have to include Yabu in the CHA trade.

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks for the summary. I read some of the thread, but not all of it. Once you take Kemba into cap space, you are nibbling around the edges. You also have to factor in Kanter's 4.8M. I assume the Theis and Wanamaker signings come last, since Theis' cap hold is only 1.8M, Wanamaker's is 1.6M. No way to eliminate the hold for the room exception (unless it is renounced) so they can sign Kanter any time.

There is also a 900K hold for each open spot on the roster below 11. After they've renounced everyone (Kyrie, Horford, Gibson, rights to Larkin, etc.) I think they will have less than 6.8M.

[djFan71]

Thanks for the summary. I read some of the thread, but not all of it. Once you take Kemba into cap space, you are nibbling around the edges. You also have to factor in Kanter's 4.8M. I assume the Kanter and Theis signings come last.

Yep. Steps are roughly:

1. Keep cap holds for Theis, Roizer, 14,22,24. Renounce rest. Get room exception.
2. Use the $6.8M somehow (or higher number if Yabu is in the Kemba trade).
3. Sign Terry - super close to the cap, depending on how 2 goes, but still under.
4. If enough money left, sign Edwards to a 4 year contract with options each year, a la Semi.
5. Kemba/Terry/Baynes with CHA/PHO. Well over cap now.
6. Sign Theis w/ rights, Kanter w/ room, Poirier & Wanamaker with vet min.
7. Sign Edwards to 2 year if we didn't in step 4.

Step 8, Zoya corrects me on at least one of steps 1-7. Most likely the details on Edwards.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't see Edwards as an issue unless they want to pay more than the minimum. Even if they do, it's not going to be a huge number.

This article is dated, but it covers many of the issues: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/06/heres-a-step-by-step-look-at-how-the-boston-celtics-can-open-almost-39-million-in-cap-space.html

[djFan71]

I don't see Edwards as an issue unless they want to pay more than the minimum. Even if they do, it's not going to be a huge number.

This article is dated, but it covers many of the issues: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/06/heres-a-step-by-step-look-at-how-the-boston-celtics-can-open-almost-39-million-in-cap-space.html

I think it's a number of years of control issue, but Zoya knows more than I on that one. I think, if you use an exception you only get 2 years onthe 2nd rounders, but by using cap we can do what we did with semi and go 4 years, options on each. Something like that...

[Andrew McCeltic]

Jerami Grant, Ntilikina/Bender, or Jabari Parker + Bender or Ntilikina, if Jabari’s money is small enough..

[Curmudgeon]

I don't see Edwards as an issue unless they want to pay more than the minimum. Even if they do, it's not going to be a huge number.

This article is dated, but it covers many of the issues: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/06/heres-a-step-by-step-look-at-how-the-boston-celtics-can-open-almost-39-million-in-cap-space.html

I think it's a number of years of control issue, but Zoya knows more than I on that one. I think, if you use an exception you only get 2 years onthe 2nd rounders, but by using cap we can do what we did with semi and go 4 years, options on each. Something like that...

Yes, that's right. But the additional amount you have to pay to go 4 years isn't huge. They have the same issue with Waters unless he agrees to a 2-way. My guess is that after watching him in Summer league they will want to lock Waters up as well.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I don't see Edwards as an issue unless they want to pay more than the minimum. Even if they do, it's not going to be a huge number.

This article is dated, but it covers many of the issues: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/06/heres-a-step-by-step-look-at-how-the-boston-celtics-can-open-almost-39-million-in-cap-space.html

I think it's a number of years of control issue, but Zoya knows more than I on that one. I think, if you use an exception you only get 2 years onthe 2nd rounders, but by using cap we can do what we did with semi and go 4 years, options on each. Something like that...

Assumed it would be a deal like Semi’s, minimum for four years.. what reason is there to give him more?

[djFan71]

I don't see Edwards as an issue unless they want to pay more than the minimum. Even if they do, it's not going to be a huge number.

This article is dated, but it covers many of the issues: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/06/heres-a-step-by-step-look-at-how-the-boston-celtics-can-open-almost-39-million-in-cap-space.html

I think it's a number of years of control issue, but Zoya knows more than I on that one. I think, if you use an exception you only get 2 years onthe 2nd rounders, but by using cap we can do what we did with semi and go 4 years, options on each. Something like that...

Yes, that's right. But the additional amount you have to pay to go 4 years isn't huge. They have the same issue with Waters unless he agrees to a 2-way. My guess is that after watching him in Summer league they will want to lock Waters up as well.

Yep, not saying give either of them a ton. But, if you go that route it has to come out of cap, right? So would have to happen pre-Kemba is all.

[djFan71]

I think it's a number of years of control issue, but Zoya knows more than I on that one. I think, if you use an exception you only get 2 years onthe 2nd rounders, but by using cap we can do what we did with semi and go 4 years, options on each. Something like that...

Yes, that's right. But the additional amount you have to pay to go 4 years isn't huge. They have the same issue with Waters unless he agrees to a 2-way. My guess is that after watching him in Summer league they will want to lock Waters up as well.

Yep, not saying give either of them a ton. But, if you go that route it has to come out of cap, right? So would have to happen pre-Kemba is all.

And, I think getting the biggest salary ballast we can is more important. So, if we use up most of the space and can only do 2 years with those guys, cool.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Don’t forget about Tacko either - he’s mobile

[Curmudgeon]

Tacko is not getting more than the minimum unless he absolutely dominates Summer league like a young Wilt Chamberlain.