Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt. 10: Free Agency is in Free Flow

[ParticleMan]

Theis cap hold was only 2 million so we never had to relinquish it. We needed to relinquish Morris hold to have max space for Kemba, but not Theis. We only had exceptions for Morris but with Theis I believe we could pay him whatever. Only option with Morris was to sign him with cap space and then trade him but to get anything back we needed Sixers and Nets to play along.

There was a way to keep Morris's hold or at least come close to what the Spurs offered but it would take some cap maneuvering. djFan and I spent an entire thread for this.

Seems like all they needed to do was dump Yabu's salary (tons of teams did it this off season) and not keep Theis. No?

but why would we want to dump an asset to get rid of Yabu's salary, in order to sign Morris? i'd rather have theis, frankly. not as good a player but a better fit for what we're doing next year.

morris was part of the chemistry problem last year. he clearly sided with kyrie against the "kids". dude is a solid player but he is legend in his own mind. pop can deal with that, brad didn't do so well with it.

[zoyathedestroya]

How come we could give Theis that much but not Morris?

Had to renounce his cap hold to sign Kemba

But why couldn't we have renounced Theis and traded Yabu instead?

It wouldn't clear enough cap space even if you dumped Yabu. Morris's cap hold is more than 5x bigger than Theis's.

[brackdan70]

Theis cap hold was only 2 million so we never had to relinquish it. We needed to relinquish Morris hold to have max space for Kemba, but not Theis. We only had exceptions for Morris but with Theis I believe we could pay him whatever. Only option with Morris was to sign him with cap space and then trade him but to get anything back we needed Sixers and Nets to play along.

There was a way to keep Morris's hold or at least come close to what the Spurs offered but it would take some cap maneuvering. djFan and I spent an entire thread for this.

Seems like all they needed to do was dump Yabu's salary (tons of teams did it this off season) and not keep Theis. No?

Doesn’t add up to enough to offer Morris 10 million

By dumping Theis and Yabu we could have had about 4 million in space after Kemba...

Personally I am glad we are moving on from Morris

Good shooter and brought some intensity for sure but he really doesn’t affect the game in a positive manner. If he is coming off the bench as your eight guy great, but if you are starting him it’s trouble. He doesn’t really fill that PF role any better than Hayward or Tatum Losing him is good for our minutes distribution and over all ability to win games IMO

Dude makes big shots but gives it all back on D

Edit: I will concede he was great in the playoffs this last season. If you could have that guy most of the time then I would have loved him back...but I don’t think that’s the case.

[sam_I_am]

How come we could give Theis that much but not Morris?

Theis cap hold was only 2 million so we never had to relinquish it. We needed to relinquish Morris hold to have max space for Kemba, but not Theis. We only had exceptions for Morris but with Theis I believe we could pay him whatever. Only option with Morris was to sign him with cap space and then trade him but to get anything back we needed Sixers and Nets to play along.

There was a way to keep Morris's hold or at least come close to what the Spurs offered but it would take some cap maneuvering. djFan and I spent an entire thread for this.

The cap maneuvering required cooperation from multiple teams assuming he or C’s even wanted to do it. It wasn’t as simple as just offering him the money. Nets and Sixers weren’t going to help.

[zoyathedestroya]

Theis cap hold was only 2 million so we never had to relinquish it. We needed to relinquish Morris hold to have max space for Kemba, but not Theis. We only had exceptions for Morris but with Theis I believe we could pay him whatever. Only option with Morris was to sign him with cap space and then trade him but to get anything back we needed Sixers and Nets to play along.

There was a way to keep Morris's hold or at least come close to what the Spurs offered but it would take some cap maneuvering. djFan and I spent an entire thread for this.

The cap maneuvering required cooperation from multiple teams assuming he or C’s even wanted to do it. It wasn’t as simple as just offering him the money. Nets and Sixers weren’t going to help.

Not the S&T route that involves Nets/Sixers.
It would've involved folding the Baynes/Suns trade into the Kemba/Charlotte trade. Anyway, it could turn out that our idea wasn't even legal via the CBA but it would've been simple enough to execute if it were. Maybe it wasn't worth the trouble.

I am NOT advocating for keeping Morris. Wanted him gone. But just the option of having a medium-size salary on the books for a later trade was nice is all.

[Edug27]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

[winsomme2]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

The post mortem on the season showed IMO that Morris was not the problem. It was Kyrie butting heads with everybody but especially Rozier and Brown.

I would def have brought Morris back.

[Ernest]

Size matters more when you are also not a good defender.

Have you watched Harrell play? His wingspan is 7'4". What big on our roster would you take over him?

Also Paul George can actually play PF and like I said a finalist for DPOY. Kawhi is also amongst the best defenders in the league.

Their top two players are top 10 in the league.

It’s JULY. They just had a major disruption to the team. They need to see what they have. If they don’t have enough talent to make the playoffs, none of this matters. If they do but look like they have serious flaws still, there’s plenty of time to make a trade. This isn’t the MLB where it’s hard to make the postseason.

Just don’t understand all the freaking out. They are extremely limited in terms of what they can do personnel-wise right now because of the cap. The choice was either building a complete team or getting Walker. Unless you want to be trading away core pieces like Brown or Tatum or Smart, or first-round picks, or both, you’re not getting a playoff-ready team on day 1.

But who cares? Why are people afraid a few bad losses in November? Let’s see how they look, then worry about it.

It's way harder to fill holes during the season IMO.

And yes, I would trade one of Brown/Hayward plus picks to get it done. I think we need to break those two up anyway.

Generally that is true, but maybe not here. First the player movement part of the offseason is almost over. So there just might not be any good or even decent trades to make right now. Also, the smart money is on Brown and Hayward both raising their trade value by the trade deadline.

[ParticleMan]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

The post mortem on the season showed IMO that Morris was not the problem. It was Kyrie butting heads with everybody but especially Rozier and Brown.

I would def have brought Morris back.

the problems with morris weren't so much about chemistry and effort, but rather playing style and having too many guys in that hybrid SF/PF role. tatum and hayward are going to get those minutes, and then grant williams. we don't need morris jacking iso shots from that spot, and then getting pissed that he's not starting.

[Smog]

It’s JULY. They just had a major disruption to the team. They need to see what they have. If they don’t have enough talent to make the playoffs, none of this matters. If they do but look like they have serious flaws still, there’s plenty of time to make a trade. This isn’t the MLB where it’s hard to make the postseason.

Just don’t understand all the freaking out. They are extremely limited in terms of what they can do personnel-wise right now because of the cap. The choice was either building a complete team or getting Walker. Unless you want to be trading away core pieces like Brown or Tatum or Smart, or first-round picks, or both, you’re not getting a playoff-ready team on day 1.

But who cares? Why are people afraid a few bad losses in November? Let’s see how they look, then worry about it.

It's way harder to fill holes during the season IMO.

And yes, I would trade one of Brown/Hayward plus picks to get it done. I think we need to break those two up anyway.

Generally that is true, but maybe not here. First the player movement part of the offseason is almost over. So there just might not be any good or even decent trades to make right now. Also, the smart money is on Brown and Hayward both raising their trade value by the trade deadline.

Once you spend your cap space it’s generally easier to wait until after December 15 to make moves. Then you can use new salaries to make deals. Also more teams have given up by then, so more players are available. So in this case, instead of losing Brown, we could get a player for Theis/Yabs/picks. There’s just no reason to give away an asset like Brown to win more games in November.

[cloverleaf]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

The post mortem on the season showed IMO that Morris was not the problem. It was Kyrie butting heads with everybody but especially Rozier and Brown.

I would def have brought Morris back.

A good part of that head butting was over playing time and shots, particularly at the wing and small-ball 4 positions. Swapping in Kemba and Enes for Kyrie and Al doesn't do a great job of alleviating that. Letting Morris move on is probably more of a net difference-maker there.

[zoyathedestroya]

[winsomme2]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

The post mortem on the season showed IMO that Morris was not the problem. It was Kyrie butting heads with everybody but especially Rozier and Brown.

I would def have brought Morris back.

the problems with morris weren't so much about chemistry and effort, but rather playing style and having too many guys in that hybrid SF/PF role. tatum and hayward are going to get those minutes, and then grant williams. we don't need morris jacking iso shots from that spot, and then getting pissed that he's not starting.

Well, this is where we disagree. I don't think we have anybody in the SF/PF role. I guess Grant but he's a rookie.

Hayward, Brown, and Tatum are all SG/SFs. They are all weak at interior defense and rebounding. They are all much better on the perimeter.

[Dannyboy36]

That’s a good point. I get that Hayward-Brown-Tatum isn’t Kawhi and Paul George, but no one’s sweating the lack of traditional size on that team.

We match up well with the Clippers. Like we did the Warriors.

We have to go through at least two of the Bucks (Lopez Bros./Giannis), Sixers (Embiid/Horford/Simmons), Indy (Turner/Sabonis), and Raptors (Ibaka/Gasol) first. Though I'm really not concerned about those last two teams.

Interior defense has been a weakness of the team for a few years now. We addressed the rebounding but not the paint protection part. Kyrie-to-Kemba on the point-of-attack defense isn't an upgrade either. I think the major upgrade we will get could be the togetherness and oncourt chemistry we lost last season. So there would be less defensive breakdowns if these guys are in sync and communicating on the floor.

Until there is some resolution of the Hayward/Brown issue, I'm not convinced the chemistry issues will go away.

I’d be surprised if Danny doesn’t view it as a Tatum/ Hayward/ Brown issue. Brown is by far the best defender and only one who can stay in front of a guard.

[Dannyboy36]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

The post mortem on the season showed IMO that Morris was not the problem. It was Kyrie butting heads with everybody but especially Rozier and Brown.

I would def have brought Morris back.

the problems with morris weren't so much about chemistry and effort, but rather playing style and having too many guys in that hybrid SF/PF role. tatum and hayward are going to get those minutes, and then grant williams. we don't need morris jacking iso shots from that spot, and then getting pissed that he's not starting.

I’m fearing this with Smart. I’ll be beside myself if Smart is starting.

[GregB]

All season this board hated Morris. Every game thread dreaded him entering the game. Now we are upset we didn’t offer him that contract?

The post mortem on the season showed IMO that Morris was not the problem. It was Kyrie butting heads with everybody but especially Rozier and Brown.

I would def have brought Morris back.

I don’t think Morris was a problem from an attitude standpoint. I just don’t think he fits this team as a ball dominant player anymore. For better or worse those shots are going to the young guys.

Plus, I think Semi is ready for that 3 and D role off the bench. He played well down the stretch last year.

[sam_I_am]

Memphis pick and 32 million could get us a stud at trading deadline. That is probably only way we add a quality big to roster. We are probably never signing a max FA again unless we blow up roster and ditch Brown this year for future picks and let Hayward and all the bigs walk next year. Theoretically, we could try to do what Lakers/Clippers did and add a max to Tatum/Kemba and the rooks and then back fill with minimum vets if we have a target we know will come. Unlikely.

Hopefully the plan is to pay Brown and Tatum with a core that includes Kemba/Smart and the rooks. In that scenario we need to use salary ballast to bring in an elite PF/C to anchor the defense and make us a legit title contender. We need enough salary to trade for a 25-35 million player. That way we can keep Hayward as well for another 2 years and bring him back at lower mo year or let him walk. Too risky to trade Brown because Hayward could pull a Horford and opt out and go to Miami next summer.

[No-Man]

I think Brad will start small but play big, basically moving Tatum to SF or so from the bench, basically meaning;

Walker, 34minpg, Edwards/Wanamaker, 14minpg
Brown, 32minpg, Smart, 26minpg
Hayward, 28minpg, Williams/Langford, 18minpg
Tatum, 34minpg, Theis, 14minpg
Kanter, 20minpg, Williams/Poirier, 20minpg

Grant is a PF, but he ends up playing the back-up 3, because Jayson is basically the back-up SF and he slides to the 4, kinda

Basically, with 8-10minpg of Theis or Grant at Center kinda

[fallguy]

Still think we're not done this summer.

[zoyathedestroya]

Memphis pick and 32 million could get us a stud at trading deadline. That is probably only way we add a quality big to roster. We are probably never signing a max FA again unless we blow up roster and ditch Brown this year for future picks and let Hayward and all the bigs walk next year. Theoretically, we could try to do what Lakers/Clippers did and add a max to Tatum/Kemba and the rooks and then back fill with minimum vets if we have a target we know will come. Unlikely.

Hopefully the plan is to pay Brown and Tatum with a core that includes Kemba/Smart and the rooks. In that scenario we need to use salary ballast to bring in an elite PF/C to anchor the defense and make us a legit title contender. We need enough salary to trade for a 25-35 million player. That way we can keep Hayward as well for another 2 years and bring him back at lower mo year or let him walk. Too risky to trade Brown because Hayward could pull a Horford and opt out and go to Miami next summer.

That ship has sailed imo. Not enough dumpable salary for a player in that salary range w/o including Smart, Brown, or Hayward.