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Trade Ideas (Part III)

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1141 » by Revenged25 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 4:47 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Trailbreaker wrote:What would be a good scenario for Westbrook to come here? I think it would be interesting to see UCLA alumni play together again.


Probably none. The assets we'd have to give up to get Westbrook wouldn't justify it. I'm guessing something like:

Cleveland Trades:
Garland/Sexton (depending which they prefer)
JR
Clarkson
+picks

OKC Trades:
Russ

That's just to get OKC to answer the phone, not sure what it would actually take.
Look at Westbrook's age and then look at his contract. Now compare it to Love's. The Cavs have no business even being associated with Westbrook trade talks.

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Oh I agree. I was just giving him the idea of what the start of any trade would look like. I just wish the season was starting already so I can see how this team looks.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1142 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:14 am

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Probably none. The assets we'd have to give up to get Westbrook wouldn't justify it. I'm guessing something like:

Cleveland Trades:
Garland/Sexton (depending which they prefer)
JR
Clarkson
+picks

OKC Trades:
Russ

That's just to get OKC to answer the phone, not sure what it would actually take.
Look at Westbrook's age and then look at his contract. Now compare it to Love's. The Cavs have no business even being associated with Westbrook trade talks.

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Oh I agree. I was just giving him the idea of what the start of any trade would look like. I just wish the season was starting already so I can see how this team looks.
I think that maybe the Pistons, Wolves, and Mavs would even make bids on Westbrook and none of them would offer good value.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1143 » by Stillwater » Sun Jul 7, 2019 1:42 pm

Best case scenario is the teams interested in Westbrook don't offer enough incentive and CLE can step in and offer KLove for a small haul of picks if they chose to move him which is a remote possibility if the OKC was desperate enough to give up better than expected value for him. The amount of picks OKC got from LAC was massive overpay from LAC
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1144 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 2:17 pm

Stillwater wrote:Best case scenario is the teams interested in Westbrook don't offer enough incentive and CLE can step in and offer KLove for a small haul of picks if they chose to move him which is a remote possibility if the OKC was desperate enough to give up better than expected value for him. The amount of picks OKC got from LAC was massive overpay from LAC
It was but the Clippers were paying for PG, Leonard, and to avoid tampering charges. I'm a little surprised the league is letting the trade go through. You can't have players calling other players under contract and asking them to make a trade demand.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1145 » by gflem » Sun Jul 7, 2019 6:37 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Best case scenario is the teams interested in Westbrook don't offer enough incentive and CLE can step in and offer KLove for a small haul of picks if they chose to move him which is a remote possibility if the OKC was desperate enough to give up better than expected value for him. The amount of picks OKC got from LAC was massive overpay from LAC
It was but the Clippers were paying for PG, Leonard, and to avoid tampering charges. I'm a little surprised the league is letting the trade go through. You can't have players calling other players under contract and asking them to make a trade demand.

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I agree with the bolded, but how in the hell do you police that? Its just the way it is in the NBA now. Maybe when the league has to contract due to low attendance in some cities it will change.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1146 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 7:11 pm

gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Best case scenario is the teams interested in Westbrook don't offer enough incentive and CLE can step in and offer KLove for a small haul of picks if they chose to move him which is a remote possibility if the OKC was desperate enough to give up better than expected value for him. The amount of picks OKC got from LAC was massive overpay from LAC
It was but the Clippers were paying for PG, Leonard, and to avoid tampering charges. I'm a little surprised the league is letting the trade go through. You can't have players calling other players under contract and asking them to make a trade demand.

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I agree with the bolded, but how in the hell do you police that? Its just the way it is in the NBA now. Maybe when the league has to contract due to low attendance in some cities it will change.
I think you investigate it, and if you confirm it happened, you void the trade.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1147 » by Stillwater » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:05 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:It was but the Clippers were paying for PG, Leonard, and to avoid tampering charges. I'm a little surprised the league is letting the trade go through. You can't have players calling other players under contract and asking them to make a trade demand.

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I agree with the bolded, but how in the hell do you police that? Its just the way it is in the NBA now. Maybe when the league has to contract due to low attendance in some cities it will change.
I think you investigate it, and if you confirm it happened, you void the trade.

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Hmm I thought there was nothing in the rules restricting players talking to each other about getting traded , but players reps can not be contacted by any org before fa starts and cannot reach out to the players either.
I think they basically just skimmed the surface of tampering but didn't actually break any rules , and even if somewhere in the rules they may have, it's all speculation likely.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1148 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 9:22 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
gflem wrote:I agree with the bolded, but how in the hell do you police that? Its just the way it is in the NBA now. Maybe when the league has to contract due to low attendance in some cities it will change.
I think you investigate it, and if you confirm it happened, you void the trade.

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Hmm I thought there was nothing in the rules restricting players talking to each other about getting traded , but players reps can not be contacted by any org before fa starts and cannot reach out to the players either.
I think they basically just skimmed the surface of tampering but didn't actually break any rules , and even if somewhere in the rules they may have, it's all speculation likely.
It's being publicly reported and PG was one year in to a five year deal. The league could get the phone records, ask OKC when PG made the trade request, etc. I'm not saying it will happen, but it probably should. This is going to happen again, the offer won't be as generous, a team will say no, and then the stuff is going to hit the fan. Meanwhile, the offending player/team will cite to this incident and say you didn't do anything with PG.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1149 » by Stillwater » Sun Jul 7, 2019 9:43 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I think you investigate it, and if you confirm it happened, you void the trade.

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Hmm I thought there was nothing in the rules restricting players talking to each other about getting traded , but players reps can not be contacted by any org before fa starts and cannot reach out to the players either.
I think they basically just skimmed the surface of tampering but didn't actually break any rules , and even if somewhere in the rules they may have, it's all speculation likely.
It's being publicly reported and PG was one year in to a five year deal. The league could get the phone records, ask OKC when PG made the trade request, etc. I'm not saying it will happen, but it probably should. This is going to happen again, the offer won't be as generous, a team will say no, and then the stuff is going to hit the fan. Meanwhile, the offending player/team will cite to this incident and say you didn't do anything with PG.

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I don't get the issue though. PG getting a call from Kawhi is not against the rules. Kawhi telling him I will sign with the Clippers if you can get OKC to trade you there isn't either... PG requesting a trade to LAC is also not against the rules.
LAC knowing about the communication and that if they gave up all those assets for PG would also land them Kawhi does violate some rules , but there is no way anyone can prove they "knew" what Kawhi would do , only that they hoped getting PG would make the difference...and it did.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1150 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:25 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Hmm I thought there was nothing in the rules restricting players talking to each other about getting traded , but players reps can not be contacted by any org before fa starts and cannot reach out to the players either.
I think they basically just skimmed the surface of tampering but didn't actually break any rules , and even if somewhere in the rules they may have, it's all speculation likely.
It's being publicly reported and PG was one year in to a five year deal. The league could get the phone records, ask OKC when PG made the trade request, etc. I'm not saying it will happen, but it probably should. This is going to happen again, the offer won't be as generous, a team will say no, and then the stuff is going to hit the fan. Meanwhile, the offending player/team will cite to this incident and say you didn't do anything with PG.

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I don't get the issue though. PG getting a call from Kawhi is not against the rules. Kawhi telling him I will sign with the Clippers if you can get OKC to trade you there isn't either... PG requesting a trade to LAC is also not against the rules.
LAC knowing about the communication and that if they gave up all those assets for PG would also land them Kawhi does violate some rules , but there is no way anyone can prove they "knew" what Kawhi would do , only that they hoped getting PG would make the difference...and it did.
I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1151 » by Stillwater » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:12 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:It's being publicly reported and PG was one year in to a five year deal. The league could get the phone records, ask OKC when PG made the trade request, etc. I'm not saying it will happen, but it probably should. This is going to happen again, the offer won't be as generous, a team will say no, and then the stuff is going to hit the fan. Meanwhile, the offending player/team will cite to this incident and say you didn't do anything with PG.

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I don't get the issue though. PG getting a call from Kawhi is not against the rules. Kawhi telling him I will sign with the Clippers if you can get OKC to trade you there isn't either... PG requesting a trade to LAC is also not against the rules.
LAC knowing about the communication and that if they gave up all those assets for PG would also land them Kawhi does violate some rules , but there is no way anyone can prove they "knew" what Kawhi would do , only that they hoped getting PG would make the difference...and it did.
I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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Yeah I wouldn't be surprised with how quickly OKC pounced on that offer from LAC for PG along with how much LAC were willing to give up for him, that both orgs front offices were fully aware and the communication about a trade for PG before PG ever supposedly requested the trade was on the table if you know what I'm saying...
OKC brass comes up to PG ( after closed door talks with LAC) and says hey I heard Kawhi is strongly considering the Clippers , this puts a major wrench in our plans along with Bron and AD. PG jokingly responds why don't you just trade me to LA then … and the rest is history... esp the part where PG contacts Kawhi and tells him he's being traded to LAC in case he was curious.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1152 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 12:26 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I don't get the issue though. PG getting a call from Kawhi is not against the rules. Kawhi telling him I will sign with the Clippers if you can get OKC to trade you there isn't either... PG requesting a trade to LAC is also not against the rules.
LAC knowing about the communication and that if they gave up all those assets for PG would also land them Kawhi does violate some rules , but there is no way anyone can prove they "knew" what Kawhi would do , only that they hoped getting PG would make the difference...and it did.
I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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Yeah I wouldn't be surprised with how quickly OKC pounced on that offer from LAC for PG along with how much LAC were willing to give up for him, that both orgs front offices were fully aware and the communication about a trade for PG before PG ever supposedly requested the trade was on the table if you know what I'm saying...
OKC brass comes up to PG ( after closed door talks with LAC) and says hey I heard Kawhi is strongly considering the Clippers , this puts a major wrench in our plans along with Bron and AD. PG jokingly responds why don't you just trade me to LA then … and the rest is history... esp the part where PG contacts Kawhi and tells him he's being traded to LAC in case he was curious.
That's not how it's being reported. I think folks are giving Leonard all kinds of the benefit of the doubt here and it's not clear to me why.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1153 » by Stillwater » Mon Jul 8, 2019 12:30 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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Yeah I wouldn't be surprised with how quickly OKC pounced on that offer from LAC for PG along with how much LAC were willing to give up for him, that both orgs front offices were fully aware and the communication about a trade for PG before PG ever supposedly requested the trade was on the table if you know what I'm saying...
OKC brass comes up to PG ( after closed door talks with LAC) and says hey I heard Kawhi is strongly considering the Clippers , this puts a major wrench in our plans along with Bron and AD. PG jokingly responds why don't you just trade me to LA then … and the rest is history... esp the part where PG contacts Kawhi and tells him he's being traded to LAC in case he was curious.
That's not how it's being reported. I think folks are giving Leonard all kinds of the benefit of the doubt here and it's not clear to me why.

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Yeah that last post of mine was just a hypothetical possibility that will never be proven true or false.
It's much more likely somebody in Kawhi's camp to somebody in PG's camp about 6 months ago in a dark corner in some underground mtg place.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1154 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 12:48 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised with how quickly OKC pounced on that offer from LAC for PG along with how much LAC were willing to give up for him, that both orgs front offices were fully aware and the communication about a trade for PG before PG ever supposedly requested the trade was on the table if you know what I'm saying...
OKC brass comes up to PG ( after closed door talks with LAC) and says hey I heard Kawhi is strongly considering the Clippers , this puts a major wrench in our plans along with Bron and AD. PG jokingly responds why don't you just trade me to LA then … and the rest is history... esp the part where PG contacts Kawhi and tells him he's being traded to LAC in case he was curious.
That's not how it's being reported. I think folks are giving Leonard all kinds of the benefit of the doubt here and it's not clear to me why.

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Yeah that last post of mine was just a hypothetical possibility that will never be proven true or false.
It's much more likely somebody in Kawhi's camp to somebody in PG's camp about 6 months ago in a dark corner in some underground mtg place.
If it happened six months ago, I don't think it would've taken until the 7th for Leonard to announce his decision. I believe the reporting on how it went down. I don't think there's any way the Clippers offer all of that unless OKC was threatening to go to the league.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1155 » by Stillwater » Mon Jul 8, 2019 1:49 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:That's not how it's being reported. I think folks are giving Leonard all kinds of the benefit of the doubt here and it's not clear to me why.

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Yeah that last post of mine was just a hypothetical possibility that will never be proven true or false.
It's much more likely somebody in Kawhi's camp to somebody in PG's camp about 6 months ago in a dark corner in some underground mtg place.
If it happened six months ago, I don't think it would've taken until the 7th for Leonard to announce his decision. I believe the reporting on how it went down. I don't think there's any way the Clippers offer all of that unless OKC was threatening to go to the league.

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That's interesting...never thought of that one.
Either way OKC wasn't winning a championship with Westbrook and PG so they are better off
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1156 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 2:04 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Yeah that last post of mine was just a hypothetical possibility that will never be proven true or false.
It's much more likely somebody in Kawhi's camp to somebody in PG's camp about 6 months ago in a dark corner in some underground mtg place.
If it happened six months ago, I don't think it would've taken until the 7th for Leonard to announce his decision. I believe the reporting on how it went down. I don't think there's any way the Clippers offer all of that unless OKC was threatening to go to the league.

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That's interesting...never thought of that one.
Either way OKC wasn't winning a championship with Westbrook and PG so they are better off
Yeah, I think the only thing that might change the modern trend is if both the Clippers and the Lakers lose those trades so badly that teams decide it's not worth it.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1157 » by KuruptedCav » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:25 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:It's being publicly reported and PG was one year in to a five year deal. The league could get the phone records, ask OKC when PG made the trade request, etc. I'm not saying it will happen, but it probably should. This is going to happen again, the offer won't be as generous, a team will say no, and then the stuff is going to hit the fan. Meanwhile, the offending player/team will cite to this incident and say you didn't do anything with PG.

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I don't get the issue though. PG getting a call from Kawhi is not against the rules. Kawhi telling him I will sign with the Clippers if you can get OKC to trade you there isn't either... PG requesting a trade to LAC is also not against the rules.
LAC knowing about the communication and that if they gave up all those assets for PG would also land them Kawhi does violate some rules , but there is no way anyone can prove they "knew" what Kawhi would do , only that they hoped getting PG would make the difference...and it did.
I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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It's not against the rules, and it is due to the minutia. It's due to the word "other" in Article 35A(e)&(f)... As Leonard wasn't under contract with any member of the association, George was not under contract with any "other" member of the association.

A player can draw a tampering fine if they are acting in a pattern of conduct with a team or at a team's direction. This was iterated last year during the Lebron/Davis commend. That didn't happen here for obvious reasons. There is nothing to indicate that Leonard was operating on behalf of the Clippers or any team for that matter.

The only other issue would be if Leonard interferred with the Thunder business relationship with George. The conversations were kept out of the media, the is no indication that George demanded a trade or threatened to hold-out if not traded. He let his wishes known through his agent and the Thunder negotiated an arm's-length deal. My understanding is that if a satisfactory trade could not be swung, George would have honored his contract with the Thunder.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1158 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:30 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I don't get the issue though. PG getting a call from Kawhi is not against the rules. Kawhi telling him I will sign with the Clippers if you can get OKC to trade you there isn't either... PG requesting a trade to LAC is also not against the rules.
LAC knowing about the communication and that if they gave up all those assets for PG would also land them Kawhi does violate some rules , but there is no way anyone can prove they "knew" what Kawhi would do , only that they hoped getting PG would make the difference...and it did.
I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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It's not against the rules, and it is due to the minutia. It's due to the word "other" in Article 35A(e)&(f)... As Leonard wasn't under contract with any member of the association, George was not under contract with any "other" member of the association.

A player can draw a tampering fine if they are acting in a pattern of conduct with a team or at a team's direction. This was iterated last year during the Lebron/Davis commend. That didn't happen here for obvious reasons. There is nothing to indicate that Leonard was operating on behalf of the Clippers or any team for that matter.

The only other issue would be if Leonard interferred with the Thunder business relationship with George. The conversations were kept out of the media, the is no indication that George demanded a trade or threatened to hold-out if not traded. He let his wishes known through his agent and the Thunder negotiated an arm's-length deal. My understanding is that if a satisfactory trade could not be swung, George would have honored his contract with the Thunder.


Let's be honest here, you don't really have an informed understanding. You're guessing. No one really knows how that shakes out. The Thunder could've declined to trade him and risked it. But, you're talking about the best player on the team requesting a trade one year into a four-year deal. The request itself says plenty.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1159 » by Revenged25 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 4:45 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'd be really surprised if contacting a player under contract, for the sole purpose of asking him to request a trade isn't against the rules, even if it's a player doing it. I know that players can be deemed to have tampered under very specific situations. If it's not against the rules already, I'd love to be a fly in the wall at the next owners meeting.

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It's not against the rules, and it is due to the minutia. It's due to the word "other" in Article 35A(e)&(f)... As Leonard wasn't under contract with any member of the association, George was not under contract with any "other" member of the association.

A player can draw a tampering fine if they are acting in a pattern of conduct with a team or at a team's direction. This was iterated last year during the Lebron/Davis commend. That didn't happen here for obvious reasons. There is nothing to indicate that Leonard was operating on behalf of the Clippers or any team for that matter.

The only other issue would be if Leonard interferred with the Thunder business relationship with George. The conversations were kept out of the media, the is no indication that George demanded a trade or threatened to hold-out if not traded. He let his wishes known through his agent and the Thunder negotiated an arm's-length deal. My understanding is that if a satisfactory trade could not be swung, George would have honored his contract with the Thunder.


Let's be honest here, you don't really have an informed understanding. You're guessing. No one really knows how that shakes out. The Thunder could've declined to trade him and risked it. But, you're talking about the best player on the team requesting a trade one year into a four-year deal. The request itself says plenty.


From what I've seen it sounds like Kawhi & PG had been talking about playing together for awhile, he then told Toronto and the Clippers that if they could swing a deal for PG he would sign there. PG having discussed with Kawhi playing together then asked OKC if they could workout a trade to the Clippers or Toronto so he could pair with Kawhi, OKC then used Toronto as leverage to get the Clippers to offer the haul they did with the threat that they'll just send him to Toronto and Kawhi will resign there knowing full well PG and Kawhi preferred the LAC.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1160 » by Stillwater » Mon Jul 8, 2019 8:23 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
It's not against the rules, and it is due to the minutia. It's due to the word "other" in Article 35A(e)&(f)... As Leonard wasn't under contract with any member of the association, George was not under contract with any "other" member of the association.

A player can draw a tampering fine if they are acting in a pattern of conduct with a team or at a team's direction. This was iterated last year during the Lebron/Davis commend. That didn't happen here for obvious reasons. There is nothing to indicate that Leonard was operating on behalf of the Clippers or any team for that matter.

The only other issue would be if Leonard interferred with the Thunder business relationship with George. The conversations were kept out of the media, the is no indication that George demanded a trade or threatened to hold-out if not traded. He let his wishes known through his agent and the Thunder negotiated an arm's-length deal. My understanding is that if a satisfactory trade could not be swung, George would have honored his contract with the Thunder.


Let's be honest here, you don't really have an informed understanding. You're guessing. No one really knows how that shakes out. The Thunder could've declined to trade him and risked it. But, you're talking about the best player on the team requesting a trade one year into a four-year deal. The request itself says plenty.


From what I've seen it sounds like Kawhi & PG had been talking about playing together for awhile, he then told Toronto and the Clippers that if they could swing a deal for PG he would sign there. PG having discussed with Kawhi playing together then asked OKC if they could workout a trade to the Clippers or Toronto so he could pair with Kawhi, OKC then used Toronto as leverage to get the Clippers to offer the haul they did with the threat that they'll just send him to Toronto and Kawhi will resign there knowing full well PG and Kawhi preferred the LAC.

Yeah except I don't think Toronto could have done that deal
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