Trade for Westbrook?

[thesack12]

I've also read a couple places that players who are already earning their maximum, won't be awarded their trade kickers.

Same, but then why do max deals with trade kickers exist? Only in the event that cap increases outpace the salary increase for a player? Did that happen in this case?

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q99

For what it's worth, Westbrook's 15% trade bonus is gigantic. The reaming years of his contract are $38,506,482, $41,358,814, and $44,211,146 since his final year is a player option and not an ETO. Still, 15% of that is $18,611,466.30. He's not waiving that.

No way OKC is paying that either. So if a staredown between Russ and OKC occurs regarding the trade kicker, he'll be in a Thunder uniform until December 15.

[coordinator0]

I've also read a couple places that players who are already earning their maximum, won't be awarded their trade kickers.

Same, but then why do max deals with trade kickers exist? Only in the event that cap increases outpace the salary increase for a player? Did that happen in this case?

After further reading, it looks like the trade kickers get triggered if they are traded in the offseason. If they are traded in season, the kickers don't get triggered.

No, it gets triggered but they are pro-rated depending on what point in the season the player is traded. Like halfway through then the value left for that time amount goes down 50% for the remaining year plus an other years left after that that are still factored in. And then:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q100

The value of a trade bonus is applied to the team salary among the remaining seasons of the contract (excluding non-guaranteed seasons -- see question number 63, and seasons following an Option or ETO -- see question number 57), in proportion to the percentage of salary in each of those seasons that is guaranteed. For example, suppose the player from question number 99 is traded at the start of the third season of his contract. Per the chart in that question, the actual value of his trade bonus at that time is $3 million. If every season of the contract is fully guaranteed and there is no Early Termination Option, then $1.5 million of the trade bonus is charged to each of the final two seasons of the player's contract. The allocation is not proportionate to the salary itself, but rather to how much of the salary is guaranteed. If the fourth season was only 50% guaranteed, then two-thirds of the bonus would be allocated to the third season, and one-third to the fourth season.

So in terms of the cap for Detroit it doesn't really matter that Oklahoma City would be paying it since the extra money is still getting counted against the Pistons' cap.

Trade bonuses can be a nuisance. When a team trades for a player with a trade bonus, it must count the portion of the bonus that applies to team salary in that season as incoming salary. Let's say a taxpaying team wants to trade its $9 million player for the player used in the example above, in the third season of that player's contract. Assuming there is no Early Termination Option or non-guaranteed season, $1.5 million of the trade bonus counts in the current season, so the trade cannot be made. The team trading the $9 million player can accept up to $11.35 million in return (see question number 85), but the player with the trade bonus counts as $11.5 million in incoming salary.

It's messy, especially with something on the scale of Westbrook's contract.

[DBC10]

I've also read a couple places that players who are already earning their maximum, won't be awarded their trade kickers.

Same, but then why do max deals with trade kickers exist? Only in the event that cap increases outpace the salary increase for a player? Did that happen in this case?

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q99

For what it's worth, Westbrook's 15% trade bonus is gigantic. The reaming years of his contract are $38,506,482, $41,358,814, and $44,211,146 since his final year is a player option and not an ETO. Still, 15% of that is $18,611,466.30. He's not waiving that.

No way OKC is paying that either. So if a staredown between Russ and OKC occurs regarding the trade kicker, he'll be in a Thunder uniform until December 15.

Considering Russ' main reason for stay with OKC was loyalty, culture, and...money, there's no way he's going to waive an extra 18.6 mil.

[thesack12]

Same, but then why do max deals with trade kickers exist? Only in the event that cap increases outpace the salary increase for a player? Did that happen in this case?

After further reading, it looks like the trade kickers get triggered if they are traded in the offseason. If they are traded in season, the kickers don't get triggered.

Also, regarding who is responsible for paying them...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2812061-anthony-davis-trade-kicker-gives-la-lakers-leverage

One wrinkle in any Davis deal is the 15 percent trade bonus in his contract. The Pelicans would be responsible for an extra $4.1 million payment to Davis if he's dealt in July

So it would appear, that if Russ is traded before the season starts he would enact his trade kicker but OKC would have to pay it. In which case, unless Russ agrees to waive it I can definitely see OKC keeping him until December 15.

I also believe they’re working on a trade with him now because there are some teams he’d waive his kicker for to join now. Otherwise there’s not much point.

Are we one of those teams? Possible but highly unlikely.

Hell yeah, they want to work with him. Coordinator crunched the numbers, and OKC would Russ $18mil + just to go away. Its obviously in their best interest to placate him in order for him to waive that payment.

Depending on where he goes, Russ can make that $18 mil back fairly easily. OKC is probably the smallest market in the NBA, his endorsements and marketability can only go up. But like you say, its pretty debatable where Detroit would fall on his list of preferred spots.

[kellmellus50]

This say's it all no trade for westbrook.

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2019/7/8/20686472/nba-trade-rumors-russell-westbrook-detroit-pistons-blake-griffin

[thesack12]

Same, but then why do max deals with trade kickers exist? Only in the event that cap increases outpace the salary increase for a player? Did that happen in this case?

After further reading, it looks like the trade kickers get triggered if they are traded in the offseason. If they are traded in season, the kickers don't get triggered.

No, it gets triggered but they are pro-rated depending on what point in the season the player is traded. Like halfway through then the value left for that time amount goes down 50% for the remaining year plus an other years left after that that are still factored in. And then:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q100

The value of a trade bonus is applied to the team salary among the remaining seasons of the contract (excluding non-guaranteed seasons -- see question number 63, and seasons following an Option or ETO -- see question number 57), in proportion to the percentage of salary in each of those seasons that is guaranteed. For example, suppose the player from question number 99 is traded at the start of the third season of his contract. Per the chart in that question, the actual value of his trade bonus at that time is $3 million. If every season of the contract is fully guaranteed and there is no Early Termination Option, then $1.5 million of the trade bonus is charged to each of the final two seasons of the player's contract. The allocation is not proportionate to the salary itself, but rather to how much of the salary is guaranteed. If the fourth season was only 50% guaranteed, then two-thirds of the bonus would be allocated to the third season, and one-third to the fourth season.

So in terms of the cap for Detroit it doesn't really matter that Oklahoma City would be paying it since the extra money is still getting counted against the Pistons' cap.

Trade bonuses can be a nuisance. When a team trades for a player with a trade bonus, it must count the portion of the bonus that applies to team salary in that season as incoming salary. Let's say a taxpaying team wants to trade its $9 million player for the player used in the example above, in the third season of that player's contract. Assuming there is no Early Termination Option or non-guaranteed season, $1.5 million of the trade bonus counts in the current season, so the trade cannot be made. The team trading the $9 million player can accept up to $11.35 million in return (see question number 85), but the player with the trade bonus counts as $11.5 million in incoming salary.

It's messy, especially with something on the scale of Westbrook's contract.

Having people a lot salary cap smarter than me on here is one of the main reasons, I enjoy participating on this forum...

It is odd to me why the new team takes the cap hit, while the former team actually writes the check.

[coordinator0]

One thing that may come into play here is that Westbrook is on a super max and may already be making the most a player can make, therefore nullifying the trade kicker like it was talked about earlier. I'm not particularly familiar with how those work each season though so there might be room for Russell to get a trade kicker, just not up to 15% of his remaining contract.

[Snakebites]

One thing that may come into play here is that Westbrook is on a super max and may already be making the most a player can make, therefore nullifying the trade kicker like it was talked about earlier. I'm not particularly familiar with how those work each season though so there might be room for Russell to get a trade kicker, just not up to 15% of his remaining contract.

Yeah, I dunno. Shrug.

[thesack12]

One thing that may come into play here is that Westbrook is on a super max and may already be making the most a player can make, therefore nullifying the trade kicker like it was talked about earlier. I'm not particularly familiar with how those work each season though so there might be room for Russell to get a trade kicker, just not up to 15% of his remaining contract.

Yeah, I read some info on that. Just from what I've read in the last 30 minutes about it, as well as what you contributed, the trade kicker language seems to be pretty convoluted and dependent on several variables.

[thesack12]

The fact that OKC actually writes the check for the potential trade kicker is actually pretty scary. I can easily see Gores saying "Who cares if it adds another layer of salary cap murder, I'm not actually paying for it. Get it done, Ed."

[ComboGuardCity]

I’m like 90% sure Westbrook isn’t eligible for a trade kicker because he makes the absolute max an NBA player can at his stage in his career.

[Snakebites]

One thing that may come into play here is that Westbrook is on a super max and may already be making the most a player can make, therefore nullifying the trade kicker like it was talked about earlier. I'm not particularly familiar with how those work each season though so there might be room for Russell to get a trade kicker, just not up to 15% of his remaining contract.

Yeah, I read some info on that. Just from what I've read in the last 30 minutes about it, as well as what you contributed, the trade kicker language seems to be pretty convoluted and dependent on several variables.

We’re all looking at the same stuff. There doesn’t appear to be a clear answer online anywhere and the reporting has been really vague with respect to the talks.

Kicker or not, that they are working with Westbrook to find a destination does appear to make it less likely that a destination like Detroit will be what ends up happening.

[ComboGuardCity]

I think worst case scenario we acquire Westbrook now and it doesn’t work out for us, the Knicks will give us a boatload for him in 2020 if Giannis signs an extension.

[coordinator0]

I’m like 90% sure Westbrook isn’t eligible for a trade kicker because he makes the absolute max an NBA player can at his stage in his career.

The cap has been going up every year though and contracts don't naturally get bigger at the same rate the cap does, they just have set raises. Should be that Westbrook has room under the max contract slot this season (and definitely going forward) to get a trade kicker.

[ComboGuardCity]

I’m like 90% sure Westbrook isn’t eligible for a trade kicker because he makes the absolute max an NBA player can at his stage in his career.

The cap has been going up every year though and contracts don't naturally get bigger at the same rate the cap does, they just have set raises. Should be that Westbrook has room under the max contract slot this season (and definitely going forward) to get a trade kicker.

Yeah and it’s a one time payment right? So he would get whatever 35% of the difference between his salary and the current Supermax. At minimum it won’t be near 18 mill.

[kellmellus50]

i would never give a player 30-45 million a year who's going to be 30 years old past his prime, you are all crazy.

[ComboGuardCity]

One thing that may come into play here is that Westbrook is on a super max and may already be making the most a player can make, therefore nullifying the trade kicker like it was talked about earlier. I'm not particularly familiar with how those work each season though so there might be room for Russell to get a trade kicker, just not up to 15% of his remaining contract.

Yeah, I read some info on that. Just from what I've read in the last 30 minutes about it, as well as what you contributed, the trade kicker language seems to be pretty convoluted and dependent on several variables.

We’re all looking at the same stuff. There doesn’t appear to be a clear answer online anywhere and the reporting has been really vague with respect to the talks.

Kicker or not, that they are working with Westbrook to find a destination does appear to make it less likely that a destination like Detroit will be what ends up happening.

But his market is limited due to the bloated nature of the supermax. He essentially has 5 options to not suit up in OKC before summers end:


1. Orlando - can offer Fournier, Fultz, prospect + picks
2. Pistons - Expirings, prospects, + picks
3. Bulls - porter, prospects + picks
4. Minnesota - Wiggins + picks
5. Heat - Winslow, Dragic + picks

[coordinator0]

We’re all looking at the same stuff. There doesn’t appear to be a clear answer online anywhere and the reporting has been really vague with respect to the talks.

Kicker or not, that they are working with Westbrook to find a destination does appear to make it less likely that a destination like Detroit will be what ends up happening.

I'm down on my knees praying right next to you on that one.

[thesack12]

I've seen Blake being marked for an annual $215k trade kicker cap hit. Obviously that's a very low percentage of his salary, so it appears that amount is the difference of his maximum allowable salary.

Which brings up another point, that some places are saying that trade kickers don't trigger if traded in season. Blake was obviously traded in season, so what gives? Either that is false info, or the trade kicker clause language differs in each individual contract.

[kpt]

Yeah, I read some info on that. Just from what I've read in the last 30 minutes about it, as well as what you contributed, the trade kicker language seems to be pretty convoluted and dependent on several variables.

We’re all looking at the same stuff. There doesn’t appear to be a clear answer online anywhere and the reporting has been really vague with respect to the talks.

Kicker or not, that they are working with Westbrook to find a destination does appear to make it less likely that a destination like Detroit will be what ends up happening.

But his market is limited due to the bloated nature of the supermax. He essentially has 5 options to not suit up in OKC before summers end:


1. Orlando - can offer Fournier, Fultz, prospect + picks
2. Pistons - Expirings, prospects, + picks
3. Bulls - porter, prospects + picks
4. Minnesota - Wiggins + picks
5. Heat - Winslow, Dragic + picks

Out of those if I am OKC I am taking Orlando.