How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders?

Moderators: Inigo Montoya, FJS, DelaneyRudd

User avatar
ForeverRDjazz
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,272
And1: 282
Joined: Jan 08, 2017
     

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#81 » by ForeverRDjazz » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:16 am

tleikheen wrote:Jazz finally get smallball AFTER Toronto punishes Golden State (the best smallball team ever) in the championship with size . Now Lakers ,Blazers ,Clippers ,Nuggets ,Philly ,Milwaukee are all much bigger than the Jazz . When Jazz start getting punished on the boards and the bigger teams push the Jazz around they'll be wondering why they got rid of Favors.

Not worried, Jazz will make shots and things will be good and win lots of games. Jazz have some really good shooters and will punish teams.
Catchall
General Manager
Posts: 8,913
And1: 3,399
Joined: Jul 06, 2008

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#82 » by Catchall » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:18 am

I think Utah and Denver are the top 2 seeds in the west, one way or another, each with 54 - 58 wins.
I think the Clippers load manage themselves into the 3rd seed with around 53 wins.
Houston and Portland get the 4 and 5 seed with 49-52 wins.
The Lakers, with mediocre shooting, mediocre defense and terrible PG play, take the 6th seed with 48 wins, thereby drawing their cousins the Clippers in the first round.
San Antonio takes the 7th seed yet again.
Golden State, without Klay, without switchable defenders and without any meaningful bench depth, struggle to fight for the 8th seed vs. the Kings and Pels.
tleikheen
Starter
Posts: 2,340
And1: 494
Joined: Feb 07, 2010

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#83 » by tleikheen » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:28 am

The Lakers, with mediocre shooting, mediocre defense and terrible PG play, take the 6th seed with 48 wins, thereby drawing their cousins the Clippers in the first round.


Lebron James the new PG for the Lakers with a career avg of 7.2 apg and career total of 8,662 assists ….terrible PG play WOW , I wouldn't doubt if Lebron James leads the NBA in assists this year
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 13,296
And1: 5,459
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#84 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:08 pm

stitches wrote:We are no.5 but as you can see the West is very close at the top. 4 projected wins separate no. 2 and no. 7... Those teams are pretty much interchangeable and very reliant on injury luck.

That has been the case in the west for a while now, so that's nothing new. Last season, 6 wins ended up separating no.2 and no. 7.
Ranking the Jazz at 4-5 sounds about right, with a few wins or losses here and there due to good\bad luck and injuries that can make a difference in the seeding. Of course, this has been the case in previous seasons too.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
User avatar
stitches
RealGM
Posts: 13,487
And1: 6,028
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#85 » by stitches » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
stitches wrote:We are no.5 but as you can see the West is very close at the top. 4 projected wins separate no. 2 and no. 7... Those teams are pretty much interchangeable and very reliant on injury luck.

That has been the case in the west for a while now, so that's nothing new. Last season, 6 wins ended up separating no.2 and no. 7.
Ranking the Jazz at 4-5 sounds about right, with a few wins or losses here and there due to good\bad luck and injuries that can make a difference in the seeding. Of course, this has been the case in previous seasons too.

The difference is that the gap between the Jazz and the no. 1 team is now 4-5 wins and before was 15+. I don't get why people have this desire to argue that point. It's so obvious that we are much closer now to the top than we were before. Part of it is the top coming down to the pack too, but still the reality is that now we have MUCH HIGHER chance to win it all than the previous 3 years... This is reflected in everything from statistical projections to Vegas lines.
KqWIN
RealGM
Posts: 13,606
And1: 4,798
Joined: May 15, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#86 » by KqWIN » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:09 pm

+1200 versus +10000. It's not even close.

Raptors were at +1850 last year according to bball-ref.
User avatar
stitches
RealGM
Posts: 13,487
And1: 6,028
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#87 » by stitches » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:41 pm

KqWIN wrote:+1200 versus +10000. It's not even close.

Raptors were at +1850 last year according to bball-ref.

So... we have better chance at a title than the Raptors did last year prior to the season starting...
KqWIN
RealGM
Posts: 13,606
And1: 4,798
Joined: May 15, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#88 » by KqWIN » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:00 pm

stitches wrote:
KqWIN wrote:+1200 versus +10000. It's not even close.

Raptors were at +1850 last year according to bball-ref.

So... we have better chance at a title than the Raptors did last year prior to the season starting...


Goes to show how much weaker the very top is this year. You can make the argument that the Raptors of last year were a better team than the current title favorites (LAC).
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 13,296
And1: 5,459
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#89 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:43 pm

stitches wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
stitches wrote:We are no.5 but as you can see the West is very close at the top. 4 projected wins separate no. 2 and no. 7... Those teams are pretty much interchangeable and very reliant on injury luck.

That has been the case in the west for a while now, so that's nothing new. Last season, 6 wins ended up separating no.2 and no. 7.
Ranking the Jazz at 4-5 sounds about right, with a few wins or losses here and there due to good\bad luck and injuries that can make a difference in the seeding. Of course, this has been the case in previous seasons too.

The difference is that the gap between the Jazz and the no. 1 team is now 4-5 wins and before was 15+. I don't get why people have this desire to argue that point. .

I didn't argue this point. You wrote about places 2-7 and that's what I replied to. Also, the difference between the #1 team in the league and the Jazz last season was 10 wins, and the difference between the #1 team in the west and the Jazz last season was 7 wins.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
User avatar
stitches
RealGM
Posts: 13,487
And1: 6,028
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#90 » by stitches » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:57 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
stitches wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:That has been the case in the west for a while now, so that's nothing new. Last season, 6 wins ended up separating no.2 and no. 7.
Ranking the Jazz at 4-5 sounds about right, with a few wins or losses here and there due to good\bad luck and injuries that can make a difference in the seeding. Of course, this has been the case in previous seasons too.

The difference is that the gap between the Jazz and the no. 1 team is now 4-5 wins and before was 15+. I don't get why people have this desire to argue that point. .

I didn't argue this point. You wrote about places 2-7 and that's what I replied to. Also, the difference between the #1 team in the league and the Jazz last season was 10 wins, and the difference between the #1 team in the west and the Jazz last season was 7 wins.

We are talking in general about how close we are now to the top contenders vs other years. I think it's non-controversial to say we are much closer now. The difference last year was 7 wins mainly because of us having extremely good injury-free season vs the Warriors having relatively bad injury-riddled season.

I guess it boils down to - do you think we have better chance now than in previous seasons? And if we think we do, do we think the improved shot was worth the price we paid?
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 13,296
And1: 5,459
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#91 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:03 pm

stitches wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
stitches wrote:The difference is that the gap between the Jazz and the no. 1 team is now 4-5 wins and before was 15+. I don't get why people have this desire to argue that point. .

I didn't argue this point. You wrote about places 2-7 and that's what I replied to. Also, the difference between the #1 team in the league and the Jazz last season was 10 wins, and the difference between the #1 team in the west and the Jazz last season was 7 wins.

We are talking in general about how close we are now to the top contenders vs other years. I think it's non-controversial to say we are much closer now. The difference last year was 7 wins mainly because of us having extremely good injury-free season vs the Warriors having relatively bad injury-riddled season.

I guess it boils down to - do you think we have better chance now than in previous seasons? And if we think we do, do we think the improved shot was worth the price we paid?

It kinda sucks that the biggest leap forward we make is because another team got weaker. It feels cheap. As to the other questions, I've made my opinion about it known already---no, I don't think the improved shot was worth the price we paid because I don't think we improved enough to justify it; we are still at the same tier we were before, imho, improvement and all. I suppose we'll all be wiser when the season ends.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
User avatar
stitches
RealGM
Posts: 13,487
And1: 6,028
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#92 » by stitches » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:09 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:It kinda sucks that the biggest leap forward we make is because another team got weaker. It feels cheap. As to the other questions, I've made my opinion about it known already---no, I don't think the improved shot was worth the price we paid because I don't think we improved enough to justify it; we are still at the same tier we were before, imho, improvement and all. I suppose we'll all be wiser when the season ends.

Yeah... IMO there is too much unknown with this team right now to know how good we will be. It's very possible you are right and we didn't improve enough to make it worth it. I also think it's possible we are like... ~60 wins team next season and go to the finals. I guess we will see. Too many moving parts this off-season and I have no idea how the new ones will fit around Gobert and Mitchell..
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 13,296
And1: 5,459
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#93 » by Inigo Montoya » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:17 pm

stitches wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:It kinda sucks that the biggest leap forward we make is because another team got weaker. It feels cheap. As to the other questions, I've made my opinion about it known already---no, I don't think the improved shot was worth the price we paid because I don't think we improved enough to justify it; we are still at the same tier we were before, imho, improvement and all. I suppose we'll all be wiser when the season ends.

Yeah... IMO there is too much unknown with this team right now to know how good we will be. It's very possible you are right and we didn't improve enough to make it worth it. I also think it's possible we are like... ~60 wins team next season and go to the finals. I guess we will see. Too many moving parts this off-season and I have no idea how the new ones will fit around Gobert and Mitchell..

I really don't care about regular season wins other than maybe seeding implications. If we win 60 games next season and still go out in the 2nd round, it would mean the same as winning 50 games and going out in the 2nd round. Getting a favorable seeding matchup that gets you to the WCF like the Blazers had last season, only to be knocked out by a real contender would be essentially mean the same. Also, the west got stronger, even the weaker teams got better. I can see the Jazz win more than 50, but I can't see them get to 60.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
User avatar
El Hespiritu
Senior
Posts: 546
And1: 533
Joined: May 24, 2016
Location: Barcelona
Contact:
   

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#94 » by El Hespiritu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:56 pm

I essentially see it the same as Íñigo for different reasons.

I don't actually care about shooting % general improvement, if any. Those sort of things help to win but ain't the reason you win.
My main concern is defense.

If they manage to keep the team close enough to best NBA defense, we'll be good.
If they don't I make no promises.
Image
-I tell them: Gentlemen, you desist. Your differences are bussiness of your own. We all must care this Refuge's harmony and decorum
-What if they don't listen?
-I kill them and throw their bodies into the sea
sipclip
Head Coach
Posts: 6,678
And1: 1,170
Joined: Jan 20, 2005

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#95 » by sipclip » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:07 pm

Right now I have us 6th in the west.

Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Jazz

Most of you have us above the blazers and warriors but I think Whiteside has a monster year playing with Lillard and McCollum and if the Draymond we saw in the second half of the season shows up from the get go this season then I expect him to have a career year. He is also in a contract year which will keep him motivated. Millions of dollars at stake.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app
KqWIN
RealGM
Posts: 13,606
And1: 4,798
Joined: May 15, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#96 » by KqWIN » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:20 pm

I'm not high on POR this year. Much has been made about who we lost this year...they lost a ton too. Aminu, Harkless, Turner, Curry, Layman, Kanter, Leonard...that's a lot of good minutes and that's not even mentioning the massive downgrade from Nurk to Whiteside.
Daddy 801
Head Coach
Posts: 7,343
And1: 2,288
Joined: May 14, 2013
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#97 » by Daddy 801 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:36 pm

Kinda surprised the pessimism about our upcoming season. I’ll eat crow if I’m wrong, but I think we made massive upgrades. We’ve all been saying for years we needed spacing and the times we had bad spacing in Crowder we were elite. And the majority of us have said Crowders defense wasn't as as good as advertised. If Bojan has similar defense to Crowder and with his massive offensive upgrade the Jazz are going to get buckets. Conley is an upgrade.

The only question in my mind is the defensive mins Favs represented. I’ll happily take the defensive downgrade Ingles/Bojan/Green/Niang represent for the offensive upgrade they represent.

I think we have a legitimate chance at a ring this year. The playoffs confirmed 2 things to me. You need above average players at all positions so you can exploit the advantage on offense when a team double teams your best player. They will double Donovan or Conley at times and now we have guys who can take advantage of these mismatches. The other thing a team needs is an elite player that can get to the line. That is the one main area we need Donovan to get better at. If he can up his drawing foul % we can be elite in the playoffs. I believe Conley is already good at drawing fouls so that’s nice.
sipclip
Head Coach
Posts: 6,678
And1: 1,170
Joined: Jan 20, 2005

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#98 » by sipclip » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:53 pm

KqWIN wrote:I'm not high on POR this year. Much has been made about who we lost this year...they lost a ton too. Aminu, Harkless, Turner, Curry, Layman, Kanter, Leonard...that's a lot of good minutes and that's not even mentioning the massive downgrade from Nurk to Whiteside.
Nurk to Whiteside is not a downgrade in my opinion. Also Nurkic will be back at some point. Whiteside is a massive upgrade over Kanter though. The blazers also have other players replacing those guys that I like better or have higher upside. As it stands they will be relying on a lot of unproven guys off the bench but I like them all.

C- Whitside, Scal
Pf- Collins, Tolliver, Hoard
Sf- Bazemore, Hezonja, Little
Sg- McCollum, Hood, Trent
Pg- Lillard, Simons

I think Hood and Simon's are going to be a dynamic duo off the bench and Nurkic will likely be back around February.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app
sipclip
Head Coach
Posts: 6,678
And1: 1,170
Joined: Jan 20, 2005

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#99 » by sipclip » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:56 pm

Daddy 801 wrote:Kinda surprised the pessimism about our upcoming season. I’ll eat crow if I’m wrong, but I think we made massive upgrades. We’ve all been saying for years we needed spacing and the times we had bad spacing in Crowder we were elite. And the majority of us have said Crowders defense wasn't as as good as advertised. If Bojan has similar defense to Crowder and with his massive offensive upgrade the Jazz are going to get buckets. Conley is an upgrade.

The only question in my mind is the defensive mins Favs represented. I’ll happily take the defensive downgrade Ingles/Bojan/Green/Niang represent for the offensive upgrade they represent.

I think we have a legitimate chance at a ring this year. The playoffs confirmed 2 things to me. You need above average players at all positions so you can exploit the advantage on offense when a team double teams your best player. They will double Donovan or Conley at times and now we have guys who can take advantage of these mismatches. The other thing a team needs is an elite player that can get to the line. That is the one main area we need Donovan to get better at. If he can up his drawing foul % we can be elite in the playoffs. I believe Conley is already good at drawing fouls so that’s nice.
We are clearly a better team but the same goes for most of the west. We also just hitched our ride to a couple 30yr olds so the improvements aren't likely to be sustainable for long. I'm definitely interested to see how it shakes out in the end.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
stitches
RealGM
Posts: 13,487
And1: 6,028
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
 

Re: How do the Jazz stack up against WC Contenders? 

Post#100 » by stitches » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:58 pm

You are very high on Whiteside it seems. IMO he's not good. At all! Nurkic is definitely better than him but I agree he's probably better than Kanter.

Return to Utah Jazz


cron