Moderators: KingDavid, MettaWorldPanda, Wiltside, IggieCC, BFRESH44, QUIZ, heat4life
MiamiSun wrote:If we don't make this deal for WB where do you see us this year in the east? Are we even good enough to beat Brooklyn?
I think 6-8 seed and eliminated in 6 games by either Philly, Indiana (I like what they did this off season) or Milwaukee.
This doesn't move the needle for me to be honest.
gom wrote:fsuizzy wrote:zgope1 wrote:it's not really based on hope. the best star talents have wanted out on a more regular basis for a while now. We need to develop every asset we have in the meantime. That might mean we create a star too. Double edged sword and the most logical way
On any given day there are roughly 21 stars in the league off the top off my head that will carry a team to the Finals with help from another star. Exceptions to Lebron of course who probably could carry a team on his own. After review all the stars. Westbrook seems like one of the few GOOD choices available until 2022.Spoiler:
Thanks for such a good post. I like many of these players more than Westbrook. One of the problems with a static list like this is the league is continually changing. We've seen massive change this off-season alone. It's a moving target. Players you think are going to stay on a club do move (Paul George just signed a massive deal with OKC for example) and new players evolve. When young players get a chance to show their game and an opportunity to get floor time, there is more than you might expect. Some bust, but some flourish.
So, my point is there is no fixed list. Not really.
I'll use the Magic as an example, since we have less emotional interest in the Dennies. They've had pretty good players move through their system lately: Oladipo, Vucevic, and Tobias Harris. They have built around Aaron Gordon and Vucevic now and still have Jonathan Isaac and Mo Bamba and a first round exit. They traded for Fultz too, so they have youth. Also, they've just drafted Talen Horton-Tucker and Chuma Okeke.
Players like Fultz (I'd put Ball in this category too) are basically seen by fans as dispensable, but I'd argue we don't know who they are, not even after as much as they've played. I'd argue Fultz, Bamba, & Isaac (at least) could in the future figure on the list, maybe as early as 2021-22. Does this sound crazy to you? Pay more attention then. D'Angelo Russell just signed a max deal with Golden State after being laughed off the Lakers. Joe Harris, the SRP who had to fight to stay on a depleted Cavs bench, led the EC in 3-point shooting. It's in flux. You have to be able to adapt.
At a certain point, though, you need to know, and we're dealing with narrow windows. I'd say when Goran went down and Winslow stepped into the point, it was transformative. This season Winslow must be given that role, and it's basically make-or-break. He is still young, but we all know it's time. His trade value will plummet if he doesn't perform to expectations.
If he does perform to expectations, why wouldn't he figure on your list? I mean... are you, like some of our posters (HEATlanta: cough, cough), that sure our young players are so worthless when *clearly* our scouts that helped draft them, our coaches who train them, and our front office give them credit?
I'd say the list is closer in reality to 40 players every season than 20, but we just don't know who the players are. For that reason you don't go all in in 2019 on a team that you expect will win big in 2020-21, which is the window we should be targeting. We will then have a contributing Herro an Bam, a prime-Winslow, Butler, another solid player (using Waiters/JJ expirings/2020 FRP after drafting?) It's slower but smarter.
Why not 2019-20 though? I mean, despite the fact Westbrook and Paul George just had a first-round exit, we can take Westbrook & Butler to the finals right, because of... good coaching? That's pure hubris.
Again, Orlando is instructional. It seems a no-brainer for them to go all-in, give up a FRP and maybe Isaac and Mo Bamba and expirings to get Westbrook, but they aren't doing it. It's not just an age issue. Vuc is 28.
I think it's that $47m a few years from now that makes them hesitate. You know what? It should.
Sometimes it's instructional to see another team's fans' take on the same deal you are entertaining:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1871424
No Magic fans are rushing to dump their assets to get Westbrook.
There will be better deals. Keep your powder dry.
Rapaz wrote:kobewade11 wrote:islandHEAT wrote:
The owner always holds veto power. The TJ sitch probably wasnt the 1st and most likely wont be the last.
and since you want to talk about veto power there was an article in the Herald yesterday that mentioned Micky isn't the biggest fan of WB. Or the exact wording he's not as high on him as others.I am told Heat owner Micky Arison may not be as big a fan of Westbrook as Riley is, but I’d be shocked if that ended up a deal-breaker. Not if Riley were adamant and if coach Erik Spoelstra (and Butler, as a courtesy) gave a thumbs up.
gom wrote:dean456 wrote:Yeah really, I don't think RJ will be a bust by any means, but this is Barrett through his first 3 games.
11.6ppg, 8.3rpg, 2.6apg, 0.7spg, 1.0bpg, 27.7 FG%, 17.6 3P%, 50 FT%, 30.4mpg
Then here's Herro through 5 games.
20.4ppg, 4.8rpg, 4apg, 1.2spg, 0.0bpg, 39.5 FG%, 31.8 3P%, 96 FT%, 29.2mpg
RJ will improve no doubt but if you are a Knicks fans right now you would be sweating.
No. That's the wrong way to look at Summer League. Barrett is very talented and just turned 19 years-old. Barring injury and self-destruction, he should be a really good player.
MettaWorldPanda wrote:
"If Miami has to part with Adebayo, Winslow, or any future pick to acquire Russ, Riley would probably be better served waiting to chase a second star in free agency."
MettaWorldPanda wrote:
"If Miami has to part with Adebayo, Winslow, or any future pick to acquire Russ, Riley would probably be better served waiting to chase a second star in free agency."
batterybro42 wrote:You give up Winslow DJJ and any draft capital you can move to get this done. Bring in a 3rd team like LAC for Dragic and maybe get another pick or asset sent to OKC
If it takes more than that I think you walk away from this
I’m perfectly content with seeing Winslow go for Russ
Turning Winslow, Whiteside, JRich, and a heavily protected pick into Jimmy and Russ is an amazing haul
somerandomdude wrote:Re: 2021 Kawhi and PG
Personally, I don't see us having a shot. I see it as giving LAC flexibility so they can bring in more talent, so I wouldn't hinge my hopes on that.
On the flip side, our contracts increase in value in case we want to make a trade and give some other team the false hope in landing PG and Kawhi.
dean456 wrote:gom wrote:dean456 wrote:Yeah really, I don't think RJ will be a bust by any means, but this is Barrett through his first 3 games.
11.6ppg, 8.3rpg, 2.6apg, 0.7spg, 1.0bpg, 27.7 FG%, 17.6 3P%, 50 FT%, 30.4mpg
Then here's Herro through 5 games.
20.4ppg, 4.8rpg, 4apg, 1.2spg, 0.0bpg, 39.5 FG%, 31.8 3P%, 96 FT%, 29.2mpg
RJ will improve no doubt but if you are a Knicks fans right now you would be sweating.
No. That's the wrong way to look at Summer League. Barrett is very talented and just turned 19 years-old. Barring injury and self-destruction, he should be a really good player.
I'm just stating what both have produced up to this point. Like i mentioned this clearly isn't going to be a reflection on how good RJ will be going forward but RJ still has to prove it too.
Everything you said about Barrett can also be said about Herro. Fact is Herro is producing at a high level and doing it consistently, doesn't mean he's going to be a perennial all star by any means but at the very least shows that he can play the game and isn't a complete bust.
islandHEAT wrote:
If he is going to give them up its going to be for Beal , not RW.
kobewade11 wrote:batterybro42 wrote:You give up Winslow DJJ and any draft capital you can move to get this done. Bring in a 3rd team like LAC for Dragic and maybe get another pick or asset sent to OKC
If it takes more than that I think you walk away from this
I’m perfectly content with seeing Winslow go for Russ
Turning Winslow, Whiteside, JRich, and a heavily protected pick into Jimmy and Russ is an amazing haul
You cant just mix names of guys you dont like and turn it into a player. For one the Clippers have no need for Dragic, and the math of Winslow and DJJ doesn't work.
batterybro42 wrote:The best game of Winslow’s career would essentially be what Russ averages nightly
FWIW, I wasn't speaking to anyone; just throwing in my 2 cents.dean456 wrote:somerandomdude wrote:Re: 2021 Kawhi and PG
Personally, I don't see us having a shot. I see it as giving LAC flexibility so they can bring in more talent, so I wouldn't hinge my hopes on that.
On the flip side, our contracts increase in value in case we want to make a trade and give some other team the false hope in landing PG and Kawhi.
Me neither I just meant that those two both being on the market then and us being in great financial position right now for 2021 can be used as leverage to not make the deal with OKC.
kobewade11 wrote:MettaWorldPanda wrote:
"If Miami has to part with Adebayo, Winslow, or any future pick to acquire Russ, Riley would probably be better served waiting to chase a second star in free agency."
This is just common sense. People really underestimate the albatross that is Westbrook's contract, there's a very good reason OKC was willing to dump him in Toronto. Keep the young guys, unprotect our pick that OKC owns and call it a deal.