2019 Heat Offseason thread 4.0- Yimmy and the Kids!

Rapaz · Post #141 » by **Rapaz** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:43 pm

Because the Heat likely will need to send OKC three players for Westbrook, Miami would be left with 12 players under contract if it’s a 3-for-1, instead of the 14 that will be under contract with the current roster after Herro signs.

Teams must have at least 13 players under contract by the first game of the regular season, meaning Miami would somehow need to find a way to trim additional salary to add a very cheap 13th player by mid-October. It would be OK, within league rules, for the Heat to have fewer than 13 players under contract before then.

But it would violate NBA rules for the Heat to be over the $138.9 million hard cap at any point in the next year.

That’s why it would help if a third team would be involved in the trade, to absorb some Heat salaries without increasing OKC’s luxury tax payment. But it’s not essential.

As one hypothetical, if the Heat sent Goran Dragic, Meyers Leonard and Justise Winslow to the Thunder, their salaries would equal $43.5 million, giving the Heat some flexibility under the hard cap, even if OKC added a minimum player to the deal to accompany Westbrook to Miami. But that would increase OKC’s tax bill significantly, which is problematic.

Another hypothetical that would work - if OKC would go for this - would be Dragic, Leonard and James Johnson for Westbrook and Patrick Patterson, with OKC taking back $1.7 million more in salaries than Miami in that scenario and the Heat being left with 13 players.

Any deal involving Leonard could not be announced until mid-September, because of arcane NBA rules involving players dealt in sign-and-trades, as Leonard was in the Jimmy Butler deal.

[I]ndications are the Heat would prefer not to include Bam Adebayo or Herro. This trade would be highly appealing to the Heat if Miami can merely shed contracts of players not in its longterm plans, but it’s questionable if the Thunder would go for that.

The Heat has been uncertain whether there are other Westbrook suitors; none have surfaced publicly.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article231883128.html

gom · Post #142 » by **gom** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:47 pm

greg4012 wrote:
Spoiler:
gom wrote:
fsuizzy wrote:
On any given day there are roughly 21 stars in the league off the top off my head that will carry a team to the Finals with help from another star. Exceptions to Lebron of course who probably could carry a team on his own. After review all the stars. Westbrook seems like one of the few GOOD choices available until 2022.

Thanks for such a good post. I like many of these players more than Westbrook. One of the problems with a static list like this is the league is continually changing. We've seen massive change this off-season alone. It's a moving target. Players you think are going to stay on a club do move (Paul George just signed a massive deal with OKC for example) and new players evolve. When young players get a chance to show their game and an opportunity to get floor time, there is more than you might expect. Some bust, but some flourish.

So, my point is there is no fixed list. Not really.

I'll use the Magic as an example, since we have less emotional interest in the Dennies. They've had pretty good players move through their system lately: Oladipo, Vucevic, and Tobias Harris. They have built around Aaron Gordon and Vucevic now and still have Jonathan Isaac and Mo Bamba and a first round exit. They traded for Fultz too, so they have youth. Also, they've just drafted Talen Horton-Tucker and Chuma Okeke.

Players like Fultz (I'd put Ball in this category too) are basically seen by fans as dispensable, but I'd argue we don't know who they are, not even after as much as they've played. I'd argue Fultz, Bamba, & Isaac (at least) could in the future figure on the list, maybe as early as 2021-22. Does this sound crazy to you? Pay more attention then. D'Angelo Russell just signed a max deal with Golden State after being laughed off the Lakers. Joe Harris, the SRP who had to fight to stay on a depleted Cavs bench, led the EC in 3-point shooting. It's in flux. You have to be able to adapt.

At a certain point, though, you need to know, and we're dealing with narrow windows. I'd say when Goran went down and Winslow stepped into the point, it was transformative. This season Winslow must be given that role, and it's basically make-or-break. He is still young, but we all know it's time. His trade value will plummet if he doesn't perform to expectations.

If he does perform to expectations, why wouldn't he figure on your list? I mean... are you, like some of our posters (HEATlanta: cough, cough), that sure our young players are so worthless when *clearly* our scouts that helped draft them, our coaches who train them, and our front office give them credit?

I'd say the list is closer in reality to 40 players every season than 20, but we just don't know who the players are. For that reason you don't go all in in 2019 on a team that you expect will win big in 2020-21, which is the window we should be targeting. We will then have a contributing Herro an Bam, a prime-Winslow, Butler, another solid player (using Waiters/JJ expirings/2020 FRP after drafting?) It's slower but smarter.

Why not 2019-20 though? I mean, despite the fact Westbrook and Paul George just had a first-round exit, we can take Westbrook & Butler to the finals right, because of... good coaching? That's pure hubris.

Again, Orlando is instructional. It seems a no-brainer for them to go all-in, give up a FRP and maybe Isaac and Mo Bamba and expirings to get Westbrook, but they aren't doing it. It's not just an age issue. Vuc is 28.

I think it's that $47m a few years from now that makes them hesitate. You know what? It should.

Sometimes it's instructional to see another team's fans' take on the same deal you are entertaining:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1871424

No Magic fans are rushing to dump their assets to get Westbrook.

There will be better deals. Keep your powder dry.

You’re overeating Orlando’s talent. Plus using them as a model to follow in any capacity is silly imo

I tend to overeat when I see something good, but I exercise. Look, I don't think there is any specific model to follow, but I do know that if you are trying to be objective, sometimes it's better to separate yourself from emotional attachment. All the young players on the Magic (Isaac, Bamba, Fultz, Gordon) are top-10 picks. Had they not been drafted by the Magic (or 76ers in the case of Fultz), they would have been drafted by the next team, so... you aren't being fair.

Orlando's coaching with Steve Clifford is also pretty damn good. They just made the postseason with their *inferior* talent, something Miami did not do.

There are plenty of reasons to trash the Magic (their ownership!), but their scouting and coaching look solid to me. It's pretty clear they're not that excited about Westbrook. Maybe we should take our foot off the pedal too.

HEATVols865 · Post #143 » by **HEATVols865** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:47 pm

So Winslow is a goner. Fine by me

Kobewade11 · Post #144 » by **Kobewade11** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:49 pm

HEATlanta wrote:So Winslow is a goner. Fine by me

he isn't but keep trying :lol:

gom · Post #145 » by **gom** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:52 pm

kobewade11 wrote:
HEATlanta wrote:So Winslow is a goner. Fine by me

he isn't but keep trying

I bet HEATlanta follows Winslow to his next team just to root against him.

Flash4thewin · Post #146 » by **Flash4thewin** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:01 pm

I dont get the Westbrook cap hate from people. Its like dont the realize its less that the MLE from Butler and his numbers? If one has the audacity to call Westbrook’s contract an albatross then what do they think of Butler’s contract? It makes no sense. Best thing is both contract expire in the same year. When we traded for Butler and the miles on his legs, we started the win now clock.

Post #147 » by **DefenseWins** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:08 pm

Leonard can't be traded til September, would we really wait that long? Olynk makes about the same money, no?

AirP. · Post #148 » by **AirP.** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:22 pm

Now that the LA/OKC trade is official, maybe the Westbrook situation gets resolved soon.

Read on Twitter

somerandomdude · Post #149 » by **somerandomdude** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:24 pm

Disclaimer: yadda yadda yadda

Read on Twitter

CWebb2491 · Post #150 » by **CWebb2491** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:25 pm

Presti better make up his mind ASAP..... the longer this drags out the more upset Westbrook will be and they are losing leverage by the minute. Just take Dragic and a combination of Johnson/Waiters/Olynyk and DJJR and get it done already. You have a player who gave you his blood, sweat and tears for 10 + years. You don't drag this out to send him to a team he does not want to go to. We can offer cap relief for them along with their draft picks they got from LA. Trust me when I say players have their eyes on this and will factor this when OKC comes calling to meet with free agents. #****

TheDon_5 · Post #151 » by **TheDon_5** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:26 pm

AirP. wrote:Now that the LA/OKC trade is official, maybe the Westbrook situation gets resolved soon.

Read on Twitter

I think it’s a little wishful thinking but I’m also hoping. I want this situation to be over for two reasons.

1) for my own sanity, I can’t stop refreshing the page

2) when you get a player like Westbrook it’s important to build a chemistry with him. During the season he would take a lot of time in understanding his new teammates

ifrosty13 · Post #152 » by **ifrosty13** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:28 pm

somerandomdude wrote:Disclaimer: yadda yadda yadda

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Why wouldn't they want Dragic? It's an expiring contract that would be VERY easy to move before end of season if they want, if not, just let it expire.

batterybro42 · Post #153 » by **batterybro42** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:30 pm

gom wrote:
batterybro42 wrote:The best game of Winslow’s career would essentially be what Russ averages nightly

Straw man argument. We would almost all include Winslow in the Westbrook deal. They would be competing for the same position. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have $50m of a $109m cap alloted to point guard.

I like Westbrook, but it's been shown he's not enough and with that salary, Butler + Westbrook would make over 2/3 of the cap.

To your point of dumping Dragic or another contract on the Clippers, I know it's tough to follow, but don't you think the Clippers are competing now? They just added Kawhi and Paul George, so maybe it's not the best place to find a salary dump.

With the way their cap is structured they could fit in Dragic via a trade

And you act like Dragic is horrific he’s still got value

AirP. · Post #154 » by **AirP.** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:33 pm

ifrosty13 wrote:Why wouldn't they want Dragic? It's an expiring contract that would be VERY easy to move before end of season if they want, if not, just let it expire.

OKC already has 2 PGs(SGA and Schroder) and probably don't want to cause issues having a 3rd where all of them should be getting time. Someone's going to have to sit and more than likely that would be the guy who isn't going to be there very long (which would devalue him to just and expiring, he's got more value than that).

eddieheatfan · Post #155 » by **eddieheatfan** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:37 pm

batterybro42 wrote:
gom wrote:
batterybro42 wrote:The best game of Winslow’s career would essentially be what Russ averages nightly

Straw man argument. We would almost all include Winslow in the Westbrook deal. They would be competing for the same position. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have $50m of a $109m cap alloted to point guard.

I like Westbrook, but it's been shown he's not enough and with that salary, Butler + Westbrook would make over 2/3 of the cap.

To your point of dumping Dragic or another contract on the Clippers, I know it's tough to follow, but don't you think the Clippers are competing now? They just added Kawhi and Paul George, so maybe it's not the best place to find a salary dump.

With the way their cap is structured they could fit in Dragic via a trade

And you act like Dragic is horrific he’s still got value

the thing is would papa riley let him go?i wish someone would upload the dragic "dont trade me,papa riley" montage that was posted here some time ago.that was hilarious :lol:

Post #156 » by **DayofMourning** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:43 pm

Broussard was talking about how Miami is the best match for WB. Didn't he say yesterday it was Detroit?

CWebb2491 · Post #157 » by **CWebb2491** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:47 pm

DayofMourning wrote:Broussard was talking about how Miami is the best match for WB. Didn't he say yesterday it was Detroit?

Broussard needs to keep our team out of his sourceless ass mouth...... Talking about clips are not getting Leonard, having Durants number etc. How does this guy have a damn job?

eddieheatfan · Post #158 » by **eddieheatfan** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:47 pm

DayofMourning wrote:Broussard was talking about how Miami is the best match for WB. Didn't he say yesterday it was Detroit?

yes he did. worst beat espn writer ever

Post #159 » by **DefenseWins** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:53 pm

somerandomdude wrote:Disclaimer: yadda yadda yadda

Read on Twitter

here go the twitter titos again. Miami Herald's new article basically states this, that the Heat don't want to give up Bam/Herro.. but it's their "sources" telling them this and that. We need to stop giving no names attention, PLEASE!

Forbes today also comes out with an article saying we need a 3rd team to make this work. Smh.

Post #160 » by **Dadouv47** » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:53 pm

Presti made some great trades for us but this one you guys will win it hands down

Hope it can be officially done ASAP so I can start rooting for Brodie as a Heat player (while rooting for OKC and some painful years of rebuilding)