NBA TV just broke some news: Tyus Jones agrees to contract with Memphis

[Killboard]

Cavs fan here just stopped over to see if I could figure out what the heck is going on.

When I think of the Wolves, Jones is one of the guys I really appreciate. I'm trying to figure out why the Wolves didn't match. Do they have some special plan that explains this?

Could anybody please provide a very short summary of why the Wolves didn't match the Tyus Jones offer? Thanks.

The price was too high for a guy that can’t shoot or create his own offense.

I disagree. IMO it had more to do with having 60M tied to average players at best: Teague/Dieng/Wiggins which leave us with almost no flexibility more than it was about Tyus not being worth 8M per year. He added 7.4M by PIPM even missing more games than usual for example. Teague $7.5. Dieng $4.6. Wiggins $4.8.

[Krapinsky]

I too have a hard time seeing this as a competitive year. Our point guard rotation is clearly worse than last season. With a healthy Covington and Okogie having a year of experience our wing rotation should be a bit better (Culver as a rookie is unlikely to be a significant positive contributor since rookies with 1 year of college almost never are). Our big rotaion is probably a bit worse with Vonleh/Bell replacing Gibson/Saric. Overall, I'd say the team is worse than our 36 win team last season. Unless Wiggins has an unexpected breakout year I think the chances are high we're a mid lottery team.

Keep in mind Teague only played 1/2 the season. We were 23-19 in games he played and 13-27 in games he didn't. Yes - there is direct correlation to having Butler on the team, but a healthy Teague is still a big improvement over last year.

EDIT: It looks like we were 11-8 in games that Teague played without Butler or Covington last year (from January to March). Not bad!

If you are reading those records by the difference between Teague and Tyus you are doing it wrong. The main difference was between Teague and Bayless/Canaan/Terrel who were in the rotation when Teague wasnt.

I thought my point was pretty clear, but I can try again.

82 games of Teague + Napier is better than 42 games of Teague + Jones + Rose + minimal minutes from Bayless, etc.

The key question is whether Teague can stay healthy.

[Killboard]

Keep in mind Teague only played 1/2 the season. We were 23-19 in games he played and 13-27 in games he didn't. Yes - there is direct correlation to having Butler on the team, but a healthy Teague is still a big improvement over last year.

EDIT: It looks like we were 11-8 in games that Teague played without Butler or Covington last year (from January to March). Not bad!

If you are reading those records by the difference between Teague and Tyus you are doing it wrong. The main difference was between Teague and Bayless/Canaan/Terrel who were in the rotation when Teague wasnt.

I thought my point was pretty clear, but I can try again.

82 games of Teague + Napier is better than 42 games of Teague + Jones + Rose + minimal minutes from Bayless, etc.

The key question is whether Teague can stay healthy.

I can understand that. My point was that Tyus+Napier could be as good for half of Teague's money.

[Nick K]

I too have a hard time seeing this as a competitive year. Our point guard rotation is clearly worse than last season. With a healthy Covington and Okogie having a year of experience our wing rotation should be a bit better (Culver as a rookie is unlikely to be a significant positive contributor since rookies with 1 year of college almost never are). Our big rotaion is probably a bit worse with Vonleh/Bell replacing Gibson/Saric. Overall, I'd say the team is worse than our 36 win team last season. Unless Wiggins has an unexpected breakout year I think the chances are high we're a mid lottery team.

Keep in mind Teague only played 1/2 the season. We were 23-19 in games he played and 13-27 in games he didn't. Yes - there is direct correlation to having Butler on the team, but a healthy Teague is still a big improvement over last year.

Teague was not a particularly good PG last season even when healthy and I have concerns that at age 31 the decline will only be worse. In terms of stats, here are his numbers for the 2016-17, 2018-19, and 2019-20 seasons:

Games played: 82, 72, 42
Net Rating: +5, -1, -4
PER: 19.2, 16.4, 15.4
TS%: .576, .553, .528
WS/48: .145, .101, .085
BPM: 1.9, 0.2, -2.4
RPM: 1.54, 0.69, -0.74

There has a steady decline in performance across the board over the last 2 seasons and I'm not overly optimistic that an aging Teague is going to bounce back. I'd say it's debatable if Teague was even a starting caliber PG last year (or will be this year).

Good points BUT... Teague did have nagging injuries that slowed him down that doesn't mean he will continue to have them. Thibs scheme hurt Teague. He should have a new lease on life under the new regime. I don't see him holding on to the ball nearly as much under the new coach. Lastly, there's only one year left on his contract. I think he bounces back.

[PharmD]

I think if Tyus learns to hit open 3's he'll be a great value at 9 million, but as of now he's just an average backup and I don't think you want to be overly committed to that.

When I watch, he hits those shots. Percentages I guess suggest that's only against the Cavs or the other games I'm watching.

Maybe it's because he hits daggers (I think). Timely shots, arguably clutch. And he's so solid with decision making he can be a thorn in the side of the opponent.

But you guys have a larger sample size of games watched so that might just be coincidence of when I see him.

Tyus isn't bad or anything. He's a high-end backup PG and the Wolves can't be spending so much of the extremely limited cap space on backup players. We have 2 years of Thibs to dig out of.

[PharmD]

More moves will be made. '

Losing Tyus doesn't make us "punt" the season away.

Based on everything we’ve done, it seems the most likely direction. We seemed to have prioritized future flexibility over winning this season

I too have a hard time seeing this as a competitive year. Our point guard rotation is clearly worse than last season. With a healthy Covington and Okogie having a year of experience our wing rotation should be a bit better (Culver as a rookie is unlikely to be a significant positive contributor since rookies with 1 year of college almost never are). Our big rotaion is probably a bit worse with Vonleh/Bell replacing Gibson/Saric. Overall, I'd say the team is worse than our 36 win team last season. Unless Wiggins has an unexpected breakout year I think the chances are high we're a mid lottery team.

We'll be missing #4, 5, 6, 7, and 9 in minutes from last year's team (Taj, Saric, Tyus, Rose, Tolliver). Those guys aren't great but they were useful players and we mostly haven't replaced them so i agree that our roster has gotten worse.

[minimus]

Keep in mind Teague only played 1/2 the season. We were 23-19 in games he played and 13-27 in games he didn't. Yes - there is direct correlation to having Butler on the team, but a healthy Teague is still a big improvement over last year.

Teague was not a particularly good PG last season even when healthy and I have concerns that at age 31 the decline will only be worse. In terms of stats, here are his numbers for the 2016-17, 2018-19, and 2019-20 seasons:

Games played: 82, 72, 42
Net Rating: +5, -1, -4
PER: 19.2, 16.4, 15.4
TS%: .576, .553, .528
WS/48: .145, .101, .085
BPM: 1.9, 0.2, -2.4
RPM: 1.54, 0.69, -0.74

There has a steady decline in performance across the board over the last 2 seasons and I'm not overly optimistic that an aging Teague is going to bounce back. I'd say it's debatable if Teague was even a starting caliber PG last year (or will be this year).

Good points BUT... Teague did have nagging injuries that slowed him down that doesn't mean he will continue to have them. Thibs scheme hurt Teague. He should have a new lease on life under the new regime. I don't see him holding on to the ball nearly as much under the new coach. Lastly, there's only one year left on his contract. I think he bounces back.

I believe that all Teague recent injuries were non contact. If so we should not expect him to stay healthy, because it means that he can't stay healthy by himself, let alone playing competitive basketball in blood bath in Western Conference

[PharmD]

If you are reading those records by the difference between Teague and Tyus you are doing it wrong. The main difference was between Teague and Bayless/Canaan/Terrel who were in the rotation when Teague wasnt.

I thought my point was pretty clear, but I can try again.

82 games of Teague + Napier is better than 42 games of Teague + Jones + Rose + minimal minutes from Bayless, etc.

The key question is whether Teague can stay healthy.

I can understand that. My point was that Tyus+Napier could be as good for half of Teague's money.

Well right, Teague sucks but he's already under contract. Sunk cost or whatever.

[Klomp]

Future flexibility its ok, nothing wrong with that, and I get that Rosas inherit a very bad cap situation and sacrifices could need to be made. I also could be emotionally attached for neutral or plus young players more than I should.

But with the choosed path we will have to tank think season. Im worried about the whole "KAT isnt a winner" comments that will float around by choosing this path and how that can affect KAT moving forward.

Adding Tyus wouldn't have changed that

[Klomp]

We'll be missing #4, 5, 6, 7, and 9 in minutes from last year's team (Taj, Saric, Tyus, Rose, Tolliver). Those guys aren't great but they were useful players and we mostly haven't replaced them so i agree that our roster has gotten worse.

We have replaced them. Might not've been players you wanted, but we did replace them.

On the perimeter, Culver and Layman replaced Jones and Rose. It's not conventional because they aren't "true PGs," but I don't think that's a high priority. We don't want one player to initiate the offense every possession, but will give everyone an opportunity to do so. And really, how many times did Rose actually play PG here?

At PF, we added Vonleh and Bell. Again, might not be guys you wanted, but both have been NBA contributors and have earned this opportunity.

[stra0448]

I’m a bit concerned about the PG spot. Teague/Napier is a weak backcourt. I would’ve liked to nab an athletic passing PG like Elf Payton, Rondo or maybe Michael Carter-Williams. We have great wings, and Towns/Vonleh/Bell make for a good defensive team, but our speed/youth advantage could be squandered by Teague’s inability to pass the ball. If we stay pat I want to see Culver play lots of PG.

I was actually excited at the idea of contract-year Teague as a 6th man/instant offense, but I don’t think we’ll get the most out of Wiggins/Towns/Culver with Teague’s over-dribbling and inability to make an entry pass.

[CP1981]

Teague didnt hold the ball or dribble the air out the ball in Atl6. We had 2 coaches in Bud and Larry Drew who stressed ball movement and player movement. He did a lot of read and react. I think the new offensive system will benefit him

[Nick K]

Cavs fan here just stopped over to see if I could figure out what the heck is going on.

When I think of the Wolves, Jones is one of the guys I really appreciate. I'm trying to figure out why the Wolves didn't match. Do they have some special plan that explains this?

Could anybody please provide a very short summary of why the Wolves didn't match the Tyus Jones offer? Thanks.

The price was too high for a guy that can’t shoot or create his own offense.

I disagree. IMO it had more to do with having 60M tied to average players at best: Teague/Dieng/Wiggins which leave us with almost no flexibility more than it was about Tyus not being worth 8M per year. He added 7.4M by PIPM even missing more games than usual for example. Teague $7.5. Dieng $4.6. Wiggins $4.8.

" IMO it had more to do with having 60M tied to average players at best."

That's it!

[Nick K]

Teague was not a particularly good PG last season even when healthy and I have concerns that at age 31 the decline will only be worse. In terms of stats, here are his numbers for the 2016-17, 2018-19, and 2019-20 seasons:

Games played: 82, 72, 42
Net Rating: +5, -1, -4
PER: 19.2, 16.4, 15.4
TS%: .576, .553, .528
WS/48: .145, .101, .085
BPM: 1.9, 0.2, -2.4
RPM: 1.54, 0.69, -0.74

There has a steady decline in performance across the board over the last 2 seasons and I'm not overly optimistic that an aging Teague is going to bounce back. I'd say it's debatable if Teague was even a starting caliber PG last year (or will be this year).

Good points BUT... Teague did have nagging injuries that slowed him down that doesn't mean he will continue to have them. Thibs scheme hurt Teague. He should have a new lease on life under the new regime. I don't see him holding on to the ball nearly as much under the new coach. Lastly, there's only one year left on his contract. I think he bounces back.

I believe that all Teague recent injuries were non contact. If so we should not expect him to stay healthy, because it means that he can't stay healthy by himself, let alone playing competitive basketball in blood bath in Western Conference

I don't think so. I thought Teague stepped on a guys foot coming down on a shot.

[wolves_89]

Keep in mind Teague only played 1/2 the season. We were 23-19 in games he played and 13-27 in games he didn't. Yes - there is direct correlation to having Butler on the team, but a healthy Teague is still a big improvement over last year.

Teague was not a particularly good PG last season even when healthy and I have concerns that at age 31 the decline will only be worse. In terms of stats, here are his numbers for the 2016-17, 2018-19, and 2019-20 seasons:

Games played: 82, 72, 42
Net Rating: +5, -1, -4
PER: 19.2, 16.4, 15.4
TS%: .576, .553, .528
WS/48: .145, .101, .085
BPM: 1.9, 0.2, -2.4
RPM: 1.54, 0.69, -0.74

There has a steady decline in performance across the board over the last 2 seasons and I'm not overly optimistic that an aging Teague is going to bounce back. I'd say it's debatable if Teague was even a starting caliber PG last year (or will be this year).

Good points BUT... Teague did have nagging injuries that slowed him down that doesn't mean he will continue to have them. Thibs scheme hurt Teague. He should have a new lease on life under the new regime. I don't see him holding on to the ball nearly as much under the new coach. Lastly, there's only one year left on his contract. I think he bounces back.

I hope you're right, but I will be surprised if Teague even approaches being an average starting PG this season. The most likely outcome is that he sees another decline in production.

[Nick K]

Teague was not a particularly good PG last season even when healthy and I have concerns that at age 31 the decline will only be worse. In terms of stats, here are his numbers for the 2016-17, 2018-19, and 2019-20 seasons:

Games played: 82, 72, 42
Net Rating: +5, -1, -4
PER: 19.2, 16.4, 15.4
TS%: .576, .553, .528
WS/48: .145, .101, .085
BPM: 1.9, 0.2, -2.4
RPM: 1.54, 0.69, -0.74

There has a steady decline in performance across the board over the last 2 seasons and I'm not overly optimistic that an aging Teague is going to bounce back. I'd say it's debatable if Teague was even a starting caliber PG last year (or will be this year).

Good points BUT... Teague did have nagging injuries that slowed him down that doesn't mean he will continue to have them. Thibs scheme hurt Teague. He should have a new lease on life under the new regime. I don't see him holding on to the ball nearly as much under the new coach. Lastly, there's only one year left on his contract. I think he bounces back.

I hope you're right, but I will be surprised if Teague even approaches being an average starting PG this season. The most likely outcome is that he sees another decline in production.

I can see why you say that but he's still young. It's not like he's 38. I'll worry about it only when I have to. We don't seem to have better options at this point.

I think we see a new Teague since he's out from under Thibs.

[alabamawolf]

Cavs fan here just stopped over to see if I could figure out what the heck is going on.

When I think of the Wolves, Jones is one of the guys I really appreciate. I'm trying to figure out why the Wolves didn't match. Do they have some special plan that explains this?

Could anybody please provide a very short summary of why the Wolves didn't match the Tyus Jones offer? Thanks.

The price was too high for a guy that can’t shoot or create his own offense.

I disagree. IMO it had more to do with having 60M tied to average players at best: Teague/Dieng/Wiggins which leave us with almost no flexibility more than it was about Tyus not being worth 8M per year. He added 7.4M by PIPM even missing more games than usual for example. Teague $7.5. Dieng $4.6. Wiggins $4.8.

In other words, he cost too much given our cap situation.

[wolves_89]

Good points BUT... Teague did have nagging injuries that slowed him down that doesn't mean he will continue to have them. Thibs scheme hurt Teague. He should have a new lease on life under the new regime. I don't see him holding on to the ball nearly as much under the new coach. Lastly, there's only one year left on his contract. I think he bounces back.

I hope you're right, but I will be surprised if Teague even approaches being an average starting PG this season. The most likely outcome is that he sees another decline in production.

I can see why you say that but he's still young. It's not like he's 38. I'll worry about it only when I have to. We don't seem to have better options at this point.

I think we see a new Teague since he's out from under Thibs.

Again I hope you're right, but I wouldn't count on it. NBA players, and small PGs in particular, tend to see a significant drop off starting around 30-32. I suspect we've already seen the beginning of the drop-off for Teague and this year will be another data point in the wrong direction.

[Richfield]

The price was too high for a guy that can’t shoot or create his own offense.

I disagree. IMO it had more to do with having 60M tied to average players at best: Teague/Dieng/Wiggins which leave us with almost no flexibility more than it was about Tyus not being worth 8M per year. He added 7.4M by PIPM even missing more games than usual for example. Teague $7.5. Dieng $4.6. Wiggins $4.8.

In other words, he cost too much given our cap situation.

I think the argument being made is it wasn't he specifically that cost too much. It's the other guys that are being given priority because their contracts cost too much and they're unmovable. Not sure I agree with the philosophy because then if you ever do move the bad contracts you're left with nothing, instead of assets on more reasonable contracts. But you'd have to go into tax territory to maintain that philosophy and build.

Sounds like the outcome isn't necessarily fair to Wolves fans, depending how you feel about Jones. Personally I think it helps the team to have a guy like that coming off the bench. A lot of backups make similar money. But it's too bad the Wolves' past bad moves are still affecting their present moves and their future. As somebody mentioned about Thibs.

[alabamawolf]

I disagree. IMO it had more to do with having 60M tied to average players at best: Teague/Dieng/Wiggins which leave us with almost no flexibility more than it was about Tyus not being worth 8M per year. He added 7.4M by PIPM even missing more games than usual for example. Teague $7.5. Dieng $4.6. Wiggins $4.8.

In other words, he cost too much given our cap situation.

I think the argument being made is it wasn't he specifically that cost too much. It's the other guys that are being given priority because their contracts cost too much and they're unmovable. Not sure I agree with the philosophy because then if you ever do move the bad contracts you're left with nothing, instead of assets on more reasonable contracts. But you'd have to go into tax territory to maintain that philosophy and build.

Sounds like the outcome isn't necessarily fair to Wolves fans, depending how you feel about Jones. Personally I think it helps the team to have a guy like that coming off the bench. A lot of backups make similar money. But it's too bad the Wolves' past bad moves are still affecting their present moves and their future. As somebody mentioned about Thibs.

It can be a combination of both. The cap situation hurts the Wolves but Tyus is also limited to one position and he’s a below average scorer/shooter. He wasn’t worth the overpay with all the factors