ImageImage

Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

bucksfansince88
Analyst
Posts: 3,741
And1: 2,218
Joined: Sep 22, 2009
   

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1041 » by bucksfansince88 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:26 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
Bernman wrote: At the same time the difference in valuation between an ownership of an NBA franchise in Milwaukee and Seattle or Vegas, for examples, is a heck of a lot more than 200+ million.


Correct. They've got into it their $550mm purchase price to recoup. Then the arena cost $550mm (-/+) of which Kohl donated $100mm and the State put in $250mm. So they've got $200mm of their own cash (which ties with what the article references).

Now, if they break the lease and move the team, they lose the $200mm they invested plus the then still outstanding debt to be paid off. So about $450mm.

Add back the $550mm purchase price and they've got $1 billion into it. Seattle guy offers to buy for $2 billion, they break the lease and walk away with $1 billion profit. The State however gets a free/paid for new state of art arena for their troubles.

All that said, none of the above counts their investment in the training center and other Park East real estate developments. Those valuations take a hit if there is no NBA team in that building.

TL:DR - They probably don't move the team, but it could happen and they would come out very well.


Seattle won’t be getting a franchise so long as the current local government officials remain in place here
soxperry
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,982
And1: 4,709
Joined: Jul 08, 2018
     

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1042 » by soxperry » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:30 am

bizarro wrote:
soxperry wrote:
LittleRooster wrote:Let’s not give the bucks credit for the picks from the Pacers. It’s been reported how the Pacers owner came to the Bucks with the offer because he felt bad about RFA

And to add to everyone else, the TPE loss is Hammondesque


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Why are we caught up in a game of how much to blame ownership?

If it is a good thing its a good thing.

On the other stuff, lets wait and see there are still things we can do to improve the team.


When the fish smells bad, it’s cuz it’s rotten. This is a 50% trade. Sure, they got ‘something’ because they were unwilling to go into the tax. They also got worse. Hands down. AND, they lacked the ability to orchestrate the proper order of things to acquire a $10M TPE, by all measures, because of $700,000k of George Hill’s contract. Don’t put lipstick on that pig. That is 100% inexcusable asset management.


i dont think they mismanaged anything.. i refuse to believe that they weren't smart enough to figure out the puzzle.. if anything, i believe the TPE got renounced to save the owners money... that's a different set of things to be mad about. i'll wait and see on that and let the season play out, but if they are getting cheap after how much they charged for playoff tickets i'm most certainly pulling my season tickets after the year is over.
User avatar
th87
RealGM
Posts: 11,657
And1: 13,779
Joined: Dec 04, 2005

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1043 » by th87 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:05 am

jakecronus8 wrote:There’s going to be a game where Middleton is complete dog sh*t, Brogdon is killing us and he’ll hit a game winner and this place will burn. Not gonna lie, I might enjoy it a little bit.


:nod:

Told-you-so juice is almost as delicious.
User avatar
th87
RealGM
Posts: 11,657
And1: 13,779
Joined: Dec 04, 2005

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1044 » by th87 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:11 am

I felt weird trusting this team, so I appreciate them pulling me back into my quarter century aged skepticism.
GrandAdmiralDan
RealGM
Posts: 15,162
And1: 1,449
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: New Berlin, WI (Milwaukee)
Contact:
     

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1045 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:01 pm

I haven't finished reading this thread, but I have seen mentioned that we could have just paid Hill about $700k less in year one and we would have been able to generate and keep the TPE from the Brogdon S&T with proper order of operations.

It is true that one way to do this would have been to lower the first year salary of Hill (or Brook Lopez, or a combination between both) by around $700k.

But an even better way to do this would have been to first sign Hill (before Brook Lopez) to a first year salary that had a base salary reduced by $700k in exchange for one or more "unlikely" bonuses that Hill and his agent were confident would be achieved. The unlikely bonuses could have been for up to 15% of his base salary, which would have been enough to create the extra $700k in room. It an only be one of Hill or Lopez you do this for, because when signing a player into cap space, base salary plus unlikely bonus must fit within that space. But once signed, only base salary is used to calculate that signed players cap hold. Unlikely bonus is excluded, creating more cap space to sign the subsequent player.

I choose to do that with Hill rather than Brook, because Brook achieved much more than Hill did last season and it would be harder, but not impossible, to construct unlikely bonuses that Brook would be confident he would achieve. A bonus (has to be positive) is considered unlikely if it wouldn't have been achieved the prior season. In practical terms, the easiest for Hill would be something like a certain amount of total assists that exceeded what he produced last season (total season, not just after we traded for him).

As I said right away at the time of this S&T, generating and keeping a TPE from the Brogdon S&T was absolutely doable with proper order of operations.

Unlike Hammond, Horst has generally been pretty savvy when manipulating the CBA in our favor. But this is a disappointing failure.

This is either on Horst and his front office team for lack of knowledge and/or creativity, or Horst presented these options to ownership and ownership told him not to execute in that fashion as they didn't want access to a vehicle that could be later used to put us over the luxury tax threshold. If we were sitting on that TPE right now, pressure would have built to use it in its entirety at some point prior to trade deadline, which would have meant spending more money this season and/or going over the luxury tax threshold (there would have been other creative steps taken to get us back under this season).

Very disappointing.
97-98
Nick Van Exel (LAL) on defending the Stockton-Malone pick-and-roll: "Yeah,
I got a way to defend it. Bring a bat to the game and kill one of them."
User avatar
Chapter29
RealGM
Posts: 14,593
And1: 1,235
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
   

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1046 » by Chapter29 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:03 pm

HaroldinGMinor wrote:Pretty sure Thon is older than he claims to be. Anyone else hearing this?


No. Is there someone who thinks he might not be the age he claims....do tell. :D
Giannis
is
UponUs
User avatar
Chapter29
RealGM
Posts: 14,593
And1: 1,235
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
   

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1047 » by Chapter29 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:04 pm

The fact that we lost that TPE is a bit concerning. Horst you can and must do better than this.
Giannis
is
UponUs
midranger
RealGM
Posts: 39,630
And1: 11,389
Joined: May 12, 2002

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1048 » by midranger » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:10 pm

Chapter29 wrote:The fact that we lost that TPE is a bit concerning. Horst you can and must do better than this.

My guess is GAD’s inclination that Horst was told not to generate the TPE is correct.
Please reconsider your animal consumption.
User avatar
Chapter29
RealGM
Posts: 14,593
And1: 1,235
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
   

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1049 » by Chapter29 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:21 pm

midranger wrote:
Chapter29 wrote:The fact that we lost that TPE is a bit concerning. Horst you can and must do better than this.

My guess is GAD’s inclination that Horst was told not to generate the TPE is correct.


Could be. I still look to Horst for accountability though. That was dumb. You don't have to spend it.
Giannis
is
UponUs
midranger
RealGM
Posts: 39,630
And1: 11,389
Joined: May 12, 2002

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1050 » by midranger » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:26 pm

Chapter29 wrote:
midranger wrote:
Chapter29 wrote:The fact that we lost that TPE is a bit concerning. Horst you can and must do better than this.

My guess is GAD’s inclination that Horst was told not to generate the TPE is correct.


Could be. I still look to Horst for accountability though. That was dumb. You don't have to spend it.

Agreed. It makes no sense not to generate one even if you have no intention to use it. Unless, the owners didn’t want the temptation themselves or the potential negative pr for not using it should some decent rotation piece become available
Please reconsider your animal consumption.
leroyjw10
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,910
And1: 1,270
Joined: Oct 27, 2016
     

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1051 » by leroyjw10 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:33 pm

midranger wrote:
Chapter29 wrote:
midranger wrote:My guess is GAD’s inclination that Horst was told not to generate the TPE is correct.


Could be. I still look to Horst for accountability though. That was dumb. You don't have to spend it.

Agreed. It makes no sense not to generate one even if you have no intention to use it. Unless, the owners didn’t want the temptation themselves or the potential negative pr for not using it should some decent rotation piece become available


Giannis has often talked about loyalty to Milwaukee, and I have no reason to think he's bs'ing anyone. But if he were to leave, these are the moments that he could point to as reasons for leaving, and I wouldn't blame him. Loyalty is a 2-way street, and if the Bucks ownership/front office isn't doing everything in its power to win, Giannis has every reason to go to another team that will.
jakecronus8
RealGM
Posts: 16,771
And1: 8,178
Joined: Feb 06, 2006
     

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1052 » by jakecronus8 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:35 pm

th87 wrote:I felt weird trusting this team, so I appreciate them pulling me back into my quarter century aged skepticism.


It’s strangely calming
Do it for Chuck
Bucksfan28
General Manager
Posts: 8,419
And1: 5,674
Joined: Nov 15, 2009

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1053 » by Bucksfan28 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:37 pm

How do you also not account for the same level of or even worse criticism from just flagrantly not acquiring the TPE :nonono:
MoreTrife wrote:Love seeing two buffoons have a buffoon competition.
DingleJerry
RealGM
Posts: 15,259
And1: 10,888
Joined: Jul 09, 2015
       

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1054 » by DingleJerry » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:38 pm

With a team that's been drastically mismanaged for 20 years it's very difficult to play the "they're management and must know better" card. If it's the Spurs, Pat Riley, Ainge, so be it. But the Bucks pretty much don't have a leg to stand on. Especially since they botched a very similar move with the Hawes stretch just a couple years back. Management also tried to say similar things about Kidd as fans were revolting about it, and guess what, turns out the fans were right the whole time.

Heck, you probably could've done a fan poll on every major move the last 15 years with a "do this or don't do it" question and I'm almost positive the fan poll would've ended with better results. Although tough to say how the vote would've went on drafting an 18 yr old with almost no basketball experience with the 15th pick. I don't know how it was on here, but my best memory at the time of me was "I've never heard of the guy, why not try to get lucky, who knows". And looking back I don't see anyone else available at the time that I liked.
Resident Lillard truther since 2015.
midranger
RealGM
Posts: 39,630
And1: 11,389
Joined: May 12, 2002

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1055 » by midranger » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:38 pm

You get the TPE in case something like Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks for tax relief comes available at the deadline. Then you make a judgement call on whether it’s worth it or not at that point.
Please reconsider your animal consumption.
User avatar
JimmyTheKid
General Manager
Posts: 9,056
And1: 5,448
Joined: Feb 10, 2009

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1056 » by JimmyTheKid » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 pm

jakecronus8 wrote:There’s going to be a game where Middleton is complete dog sh*t, Brogdon is killing us and he’ll hit a game winner and this place will burn. Not gonna lie, I might enjoy it a little bit.


It shouldn't though. I mean its over. The decision was made. I've been practically begging the front office to not pay Middleton what they just paid him, for the last year or more. And I'm going to miss Malcolm. But there should be no surprises about either of these two players going forward. I mean, they pretty much are who they are at this point. Middleton will carry us offensively for a number of games this season. He'll infuriate with his loose handle, seemingly DGAF attitude, and sometimes-questionable decision making. Brogdon will be solid-glue-guy, clutch shooter, model citizen in Indiana, but never wow or "blow up" or put the team on his back. We'll still be title contenders because of Giannis (and the style of basketball Brook allows us to play). We win the whole damn thing and all the bad feelings about this offseason will go away. We come up short and hopefully we at least have Giannis-here-long-term to hang our hats on. But to take pleasure in Middleton struggling and Brogdon playing well during a season where, barring an injury to Giannis, we'll again be right there at the very end, seems forced and counterproductive.
User avatar
MickeyDavis
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 104,220
And1: 56,395
Joined: May 02, 2002
Location: The Craps Table
     

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1057 » by MickeyDavis » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Anyone who thinks it was Horst's decision to punt the TPE is crazy. There is no doubt he was told to stay under the lux tax no matter what
I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.
Bucksfan28
General Manager
Posts: 8,419
And1: 5,674
Joined: Nov 15, 2009

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1058 » by Bucksfan28 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:55 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Anyone who thinks it was Horst's decision to punt the TPE is crazy. There is no doubt he was told to stay under the lux tax no matter what


Agree that he likely had a mandate, but there would've been room to use some of the TPE and stay under the lux tax, correct? You have to hope he at least explained that part to them otherwise there's definitely some blame to place on him.
MoreTrife wrote:Love seeing two buffoons have a buffoon competition.
User avatar
Chapter29
RealGM
Posts: 14,593
And1: 1,235
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
   

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1059 » by Chapter29 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:02 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Anyone who thinks it was Horst's decision to punt the TPE is crazy. There is no doubt he was told to stay under the lux tax no matter what


I didn't say that. You could have kept the TPE and not gone over. That is on him.
Giannis
is
UponUs
LuessiT
RealGM
Posts: 11,475
And1: 4,735
Joined: Jan 08, 2016
 

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1060 » by LuessiT » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:03 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Anyone who thinks it was Horst's decision to punt the TPE is crazy. There is no doubt he was told to stay under the lux tax no matter what


Getting the TPE doesn't put you in luxury tax.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks