Jim Boylen and the Bulls future

[LewisnotMiller]

As a legacy of my age (mid 40s) and being Australian, I have a lot of friends who are Bulls or Lakers fans.
I try not to talk to the Lakers fans, of course.

Have mentioned previously on realgm that I really like the Bulls offseason. Main reason is the fit of your players now. I've always thought Sato was starting level, and White is a good fit with LaVine longer term. Porter and Young are rock solid pros at fwd who play both ends. Carter, Markinnen good young bigs. Even like the Kornet signing.

I'm unimpressed completely with Boylen, and worry he's trying to fit guys into a system, whereas I think you have a very coherent roster. Switchy defence, push the ball, lean on your vets for consistency and enjoy the flashes from your youth.

Don't get Dunn's fit at all, so personally I'm hoping he's injury depth, and third guard for when White struggles (I'm assuming he'll be a typical rookie in that sense).

But...I haven't seen too much of the Bulls of late. Am I wrong on this? My more casual friends ask my opinion, and for the first time in a while I'm pretty positive about the Bulls and the job their FO has done. But the coach...??

[petebraun0]

Boylen hasn't proven anything to me. The fact that we brought in two new assistants is good. I think Boylen will have good people around him. we'll have to wait and see if Boylen turns out to be a good coach. I have my doubts. He has been around a lot of good coaches during his career, and has a lot of experience. But he was our defensive guru or specialist, and our defense stunk.

[kulaz3000]

Boylen hasn't proven anything to me. The fact that we brought in two new assistants is good. I think Boylen will have good people around him. we'll have to wait and see if Boylen turns out to be a good coach. I have my doubts. He has been around a lot of good coaches during his career, and has a lot of experience. But he was our defensive guru or specialist, and our defense stunk.

Sometimes as a head coach, you're only as good as your assistant coaches, Phil Jackson being the prime example.

Boylen by reports pushed to bring in high quality assistant coaches, which the front office obliged to. The true test is this season, as he has a full training camp to work with, higher quality assistant coaches and a more well rounded roster with actual depth.

You can't blame the front office for not providing Boylen with the best chance for success this season, now it's up to him to lead the team to more wins than losses.

[Bandit King]

Boyball is here too stay bulls gave too much money to ex coaches!!!

[coldfish]

Which system is he trying to fit players into? The slow it down, work the ball around system in december or the "anyone bring the ball up as fast as you can" and then run a swing motion offense system from February?

Boylen got a massive amount of grief for the slow it down and work the ball system in December. It was really ugly. If you have ever coached, it was almost like 5th grade coaching where you tell the children they have to pass it 5 times before shooting. Between that and his emphasis on practice and workouts and conditioning, he basically tried to run a coaching clinic for kids in the middle of an NBA season.

It really divided the fanbase and pissed off the players. Some thought it was really unprofessional and others thought it was necessary because Hoiberg and the players were so . . . unprofessional.

Regardless, the February system seems to be what Boylen actually wants to run and it suited the players pretty well.

[madvillian]

I'm at the point where I think Boylen is probably the least of our worries. He seems like the type that will burn out in a few years but that can squeeze a couple hard driving years out of a team on the rise. His comments since his first asinine press conference have for the most part been pretty self aware and as CF noted the slow down style was an attempt at a "detox" from Hoiberg. Hard to judge what happened after that as the injuries at that point were out of control.

With health this roster should push for 40 wins and a playoff spot that's his goal and if he can get there he did a solid job.

[bulls_troy]

As a legacy of my age (mid 40s) and being Australian, I have a lot of friends who are Bulls or Lakers fans.
I try not to talk to the Lakers fans, of course.

Have mentioned previously on realgm that I really like the Bulls offseason. Main reason is the fit of your players now. I've always thought Sato was starting level, and White is a good fit with LaVine longer term. Porter and Young are rock solid pros at fwd who play both ends. Carter, Markinnen good young bigs. Even like the Kornet signing.

I'm unimpressed completely with Boylen, and worry he's trying to fit guys into a system, whereas I think you have a very coherent roster. Switchy defence, push the ball, lean on your vets for consistency and enjoy the flashes from your youth.

Don't get Dunn's fit at all, so personally I'm hoping he's injury depth, and third guard for when White struggles (I'm assuming he'll be a typical rookie in that sense).

But...I haven't seen too much of the Bulls of late. Am I wrong on this? My more casual friends ask my opinion, and for the first time in a while I'm pretty positive about the Bulls and the job their FO has done. But the coach...??

Where from our great land are you?

[TeamMan]

Before you can begin a discussion about any Bulls coach you have to 1st look at the history.

Gar/Pax have a tragic history with coaches, and when ownership has made any contribution at all, it was totally negative.

Therefore any Bulls coach has to know from the beginning that their days are numbered.

Hoiberg refused to take the job without a 5-year guarantee, because he knew what to expect.

That means that Boylen's 1st goal is to impress the rest of the league with his coaching knowledge and ability to deal with players, even though it might not be reflected in his record.

That way, when his time ends with the Bulls, then he can easily find another job, like Hoiberg.

[ChettheJet]

As I see him, Boylen to this point is an assistant coach who is a good choice as head coach for a young and growing team. Look back to Scott Skiles. He was with several teams besides the Bulls that needed to get out of the lower half of the standings, that had young players that needed to learn the NBA game and Skiles did that. But he never got those teams beyond the opening round of the playoffs and into title contention. Thibs pushed the Bulls to be contenders but couldn't get farther, tried the same methods in Minn and ended up fired.

As the Bulls core group matures and they get to the point where they have the talent to contend for the conference title we'll have to see if Boylen likewise matures as a head coach and can win those big games.

Most coaches don't find that extra gear and get if done when the pressure is on and you don't know until they get to that point and are in that situation. I don't think when Popovich took over the coaching duties with the Spurs that anybody said they needed to start designing championship banners for the rafters. But he was the right guy for that team.

We'll have to see with Boylen, it's up to GarPax to see that as it's happening and keep an eye out for a potential replacement who might have what it takes to make that final step. The way Krause brought in Phil Jackson to replace Doug Collins

[sco]

Not quite sure where to put this, but I thought Boylen came off decent here. He seems a little more laid back than normal, imo.

Watch on YouTube

Worth a watch!

[musiqsoulchild]

He's going to be the best of Skiles and Hoiberg combined.

He'll always have the organization backing him.

[League Circles]

I like Boylen. Haven't seen enough to call him a good or even acceptable coach yet, but what I have seen I've liked. I like passionate, "hard" coaches who seem to really value communication and respect their players. This team has had a lot of bad coaching since the dynasty. I think Boylen has a chance to be better than all of them, even Thibbs.

[contestedlayups]

Last season, Jim proved hat he was not ready for the big time stage of being a head coach by publicly calling out players, having the team nearly perform a mutiny on him, and then yell at opposing players while shooting during a game. The hope is that Jim learned from all of these childish mistakes and that he can put them behind him.

The players responded well when he basically let them play in February, and one would assume that the same style of play will be in effect in the beginning of the year. One would expect that the Bulls won't focus on Thad Young post-ups for the majority of their offense this year, but only time will tell. An earlier post on this thread did make a statement about the Bulls hiring of various assistants to strengthen their staff, and I do think that was needed, especially for Jim going forward. It gives the Bulls a much needed backbone of established coaches, and one would hope that the assistants are treated better than Ron Adams was!

[musiqsoulchild]

Last season, Jim proved hat he was not ready for the big time stage of being a head coach by publicly calling out players, having the team nearly perform a mutiny on him, and then yell at opposing players while shooting during a game. The hope is that Jim learned from all of these childish mistakes and that he can put them behind him.

The players responded well when he basically let them play in February, and one would assume that the same style of play will be in effect in the beginning of the year. One would expect that the Bulls won't focus on Thad Young post-ups for the majority of their offense this year, but only time will tell. An earlier post on this thread did make a statement about the Bulls hiring of various assistants to strengthen their staff, and I do think that was needed, especially for Jim going forward. It gives the Bulls a much needed backbone of established coaches, and one would hope that the assistants are treated better than Ron Adams was!

That is actually a good thing in the context of his establishing himself as the Head Coach.

Its an EVEN better sign that the Bulls are looking to get back Holiday - a player that was supposedly unhappy with Boylen. That means Boylen is a grown ass man and can understand that his ego is irrelevant to team benefit.

[League Circles]

Last season, Jim proved hat he was not ready for the big time stage of being a head coach by publicly calling out players, having the team nearly perform a mutiny on him, and then yell at opposing players while shooting during a game. The hope is that Jim learned from all of these childish mistakes and that he can put them behind him.

The players responded well when he basically let them play in February, and one would assume that the same style of play will be in effect in the beginning of the year. One would expect that the Bulls won't focus on Thad Young post-ups for the majority of their offense this year, but only time will tell. An earlier post on this thread did make a statement about the Bulls hiring of various assistants to strengthen their staff, and I do think that was needed, especially for Jim going forward. It gives the Bulls a much needed backbone of established coaches, and one would hope that the assistants are treated better than Ron Adams was!

Ron Adams' contract expired and was not renewed because he was publicly (or at least in a way heard/known to players) criticizing at least one of our draft choices (pretty sure it waa Tony Snell). That's some "toxic", "cancerous" **** coming from an assistant coach if I've ever heard it. **** Ron Adams and his mythically overrated, cancerous ass. Sorry, didn't want to derail but I have a policy to never let some Ron Adams sympathy go unchecked on this forum.

IMO, Boylen did what was needed, because Fred Hoiberg coached them like kids.

Not sure I've ever heard positive Hoiberg praise from a player. Multiple players around the league have now praised Boylen or defended him, including Jimmy Butler, Zach Lavine, Pat Beverly, Bobby Portis, etc.

[League Circles]

Last season, Jim proved hat he was not ready for the big time stage of being a head coach by publicly calling out players, having the team nearly perform a mutiny on him, and then yell at opposing players while shooting during a game. The hope is that Jim learned from all of these childish mistakes and that he can put them behind him.

The players responded well when he basically let them play in February, and one would assume that the same style of play will be in effect in the beginning of the year. One would expect that the Bulls won't focus on Thad Young post-ups for the majority of their offense this year, but only time will tell. An earlier post on this thread did make a statement about the Bulls hiring of various assistants to strengthen their staff, and I do think that was needed, especially for Jim going forward. It gives the Bulls a much needed backbone of established coaches, and one would hope that the assistants are treated better than Ron Adams was!

That is actually a good thing in the context of his establishing himself as the Head Coach.

Its an EVEN better sign that the Bulls are looking to get back Holiday - a player that was supposedly unhappy with Boylen. That means Boylen is a grown ass man and can understand that his ego is irrelevant to team benefit.

Yep. It also likely means the "mutiny" was largely overstated, or at least Holiday's role in it.

[RSP83]

the ship has sailed on the coaching search. Let's just ride the Boylen boat until it sinks.

[contestedlayups]

Last season, Jim proved hat he was not ready for the big time stage of being a head coach by publicly calling out players, having the team nearly perform a mutiny on him, and then yell at opposing players while shooting during a game. The hope is that Jim learned from all of these childish mistakes and that he can put them behind him.

The players responded well when he basically let them play in February, and one would assume that the same style of play will be in effect in the beginning of the year. One would expect that the Bulls won't focus on Thad Young post-ups for the majority of their offense this year, but only time will tell. An earlier post on this thread did make a statement about the Bulls hiring of various assistants to strengthen their staff, and I do think that was needed, especially for Jim going forward. It gives the Bulls a much needed backbone of established coaches, and one would hope that the assistants are treated better than Ron Adams was!

Ron Adams' contract expired and was not renewed because he was publicly (or at least in a way heard/known to players) criticizing at least one of our draft choices (pretty sure it waa Tony Snell). That's some "toxic", "cancerous" **** coming from an assistant coach if I've ever heard it. **** Ron Adams and his mythically overrated, cancerous ass. Sorry, didn't want to derail but I have a policy to never let some Ron Adams sympathy go unchecked on this forum.

IMO, Boylen did what was needed, because Fred Hoiberg coached them like kids.

Not sure I've ever heard positive Hoiberg praise from a player. Multiple players around the league have now praised Boylen or defended him, including Jimmy Butler, Zach Lavine, Pat Beverly, Bobby Portis, etc.

LOL wow. I didn't know you had such a disdain for Ron Adams. First time I've ever heard it from anyone, really. Also, a first about the negative side of Ron Adams I've heard, as he's seemingly been a good soldier in Golden State as they've won a lot more than they've lost since he's been there. Considering that the Bulls defensive rating slowly dropped under Thibs after Adams was let go, it seems like it was the wrong move at the time. But neither here nor there, you are entitled to how you feel about Ron Adams.

I agree that Hoiberg wasn't tough enough on the Bulls when he was the head coach, as was made obvious by Jimmy Butler when he called him out publicly. I also agree that Boylen had to force the Bulls to undergo major changes to their conditioning and play in-season, which is a very difficult thing to do. Particularly when players got accustomed to playing one specific way under Hoiberg, which, as bad as it is to say, was lazy. I did think Boylen could have handled it much better publicly, but it's in the past and he's the coach for the foreseeable future. The results need to be there to begin the season though, as this team must be the competitive and exciting team that we saw in February. The hope is that what we saw in February wasn't a fluke, and that it will yield sustainable results this year.

[FriedRise]

Looking at the fate of all our past coaches, I can't help but wonder if Boylen would be any different.

With Thibs, he was winning us games but he wouldn't communicate (i.e. take any orders) from the FO. Guys did buy in to Thibs system and play hard for him every night, and we took that for granted. It was a miracle that '14-15 roster won 50 games, because the same exact roster with an average coach in Fred Hoiberg only won 42 the following year. But the constant undermining by the FO eventually ran him out of town.

With Fred, he got the roster he was given to perform as averagely (or slightly under) as one can expect, but he did follow what the FO wanted by putting together those tanking lineups at the end of games in '17-18. If only Adam Silver didn't intervene (and Niko didn't have a surge and GarPax didn't sign Kildraftpick), maybe we would've ended up with Luka! The FO seemed to have a different agenda every year though (i.e. staying "relevant" and putting butts in seats by signing these "marquee" talents) and never really gave him the players he really needed to run his system. Chicken and egg: does the system follow the players or should the players dictate the system? Players visibly treated him like a substitute teacher, ignoring his playcalling on a regular basis to do their own thing and there really was nothing Fred can do about it, because he was a nice guy and getting his heart rate up would be bad for his health. One might say he never really had the locker room, the players were running the show, and for that, he had to go.

Now we have Boylen. He's kind of an odd dude with the Bulls across the chest, spirit, and soul jabbering. And who can forget all those late timeouts he called with less than 30 seconds to play and the Bulls down 20? He's breaking etiquette! But you can see why the FO is enamored with him. He's the mix of the two past head coaches, the prototypical head coach that the FO truly want: somebody who would listen and communicate with GarPax on a regular basis, and someone who has the command over the locker room. I can't see anybody waiving his playcalling at the end of games because I'm sure they'll get an earful - publicly or otherwise (he likes to have those tough conversations that most shy away from). I also don't see him ignoring GarPax's orders if he does have to put together a tanking lineup, though the contract is still fresh and tanking is much less desired now.

From the basketball standpoint, I don't really know what Boyball is. In the beginning, it was hours and hours of wind sprints and suicides during practice to improve conditioning. That led to an almost mutiny, so he stopped that. Then it became this walk-it-up, slow-it-down system that forced our guys to execute at the most basic JV level. I'm sure that was kind of humiliating when you're already paid millions of dollars, but it did lead to more competitive games as the scores stayed in the 80s/90s and blowout games were fewer. I think the Bulls had the best defense in the league during that stretch, but it was really just a product of the slow-as-snail pace they were playing with; you're not gonna score that many points with fewer possessions! Our roster was G-League quality and we had to go back to the basics anyway, so I guess it was a win/win.

Then we made a trade, and February happened. We went 5-5 that month, and yes, .500 basketball was easily the best basketball the '18-19 Bulls played (we were 17-72 all the other months). He implemented the multi ballhandler system with Lauri, LaVine, Otto, and Dunn grabbing and going. We scored and held our opponents to roughly the same number of points (0.0 +/-, .500.. yes, truly average basketball!). But perhaps most importantly, his system seemed to get our young core to wake up and play well enough to withstand the G-League bench. They were up there in terms of points scored with the best of the best, and our offense led the league for a whole month!

This little stretch of average basketball gave us hope that maybe, if we just upgrade a few spots and stop inviting the Windy City Bulls to play at the United Center, that we can start winning games again behind the production of our young core in LaVine, Lauri, and Otto. And so that's what they did this summer.

[Axolotl]

...Boylen is a grown ass man and can understand that his ego is irrelevant to team benefit.

It's hard to tell from public sources of course, but he gives me the impression of a man with no need to be seen as the smartest guy in the room. If he genuinely is like that, it could also be one of the reasons behind him turning the near mutiny around in no time at all.

Seems like a man who has a passion for what he does - which doesn't automatically mean he is good at it. That remains to be seen during the coming season. He put the training wheels on the team when he took over last season, there'll be no training wheels when the new season starts.

It should be clear fairly soon whether the team has a system, an identity, a style of play, and whether that system is working or not. Then come the in-game things: the line-ups, the rotations, the court time management, time-outs, reacting to changes and such. But what I'm looking forward to is the system. There's a thread here from I think around new year, buried under layers and layers of other threads, that asked "What is Boyball". The question is more relevant now than it was back then.