Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins

rugbyrugger23 · Post #1 » by **rugbyrugger23** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Wolves Trade: Wiggins + Okogie
Wolves Receive: Waiters + J. Johnson

Wizards Trade: Wall + Mahinmi + Miles (or Bertans, Riley chooses)
Wizards Receive: Wiggins + Adams + Dragic

Heat Trade: Dragic + JJ + Waiters
Heat Receive: Paul + Miles + Nader (OKC small filler)

Thunder Trade: Adams + Paul + Nader (or Ferguson as value filler)
Thunder Receive: Wall + Mahinmi + Okogie + Huge Cap Relief

Wolves Why: move on from Wiggins at cost of Okogie — but get playable vets and cap flexibility 2020 when JJ+Waiters+Dieng expire.

Wizards Why: make Beal happy by being a good team in East right away (vs. bottom feeder). Add x2 24/25yo players that could actually be a core trio with Beal. They could be a consolidation trade away from a playoff team — maybe 2nd round playoff team.

Heat Why: does Paul and Butler make them a deep playoff team?

OKC Why: move Paul for huge cap flexibility. Presti plays the long game with Wall — let him heal and hope he can be flipped for assets when he is proven healthy and a couple years have ticked off that contract.

Post #2 » by **BBallFreak** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:23 pm

Miami needs picks to do this deal, and not second rounders, either. We need our two returned to us.

rugbyrugger23 · Post #3 » by **rugbyrugger23** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:29 pm

BBallFreak wrote:Miami needs picks to do this deal, and not second rounders, either. We need our two returned to us.

I think Miami could get something more from OKC here (turn Nader into Ferguson in this scenario for example).

But if Miami is in any Paul consideration, it is because Riley doesn’t throw up in his mouth a little bit with the idea of Paul. Despite his contract/age, he sees Paul as a contributor still.

And with that said, I tried using Heat worst 2 contracts that had Paul as only one additional year vs. them (with that Paul year being a PO).

Post #4 » by **BBallFreak** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:33 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Miami needs picks to do this deal, and not second rounders, either. We need our two returned to us.

I think Miami could get something more from OKC here (turn Nader into Ferguson in this scenario for example).

But if Miami is in any Paul consideration, it is because Riley doesn’t throw up in his mouth a little bit with the idea as Paul. Despite his contract/age, he sees Paul as a contributor still.

And with that said, I tried using Heat worst 2 contracts that had Paul as only one additional year vs. them (with that Paul year being a PO).

From all reports, the Heat are lukewarm on the idea of trading for Paul and would require 2-3 first round draft picks. We have other things in mind and other players on our roster, so Paul is not a need. I, personally, would rather see what we currently have rather than taking Paul for less than those 2-3 draft picks.

Post #5 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:37 pm

OKC isn't going to add any draft picks of note in a CP to Miami deal.

JJ, Dion, Dragic for CP, Nader, Burton is where I am. But on the board here both sides are dug in. It's not really worth continuing to debate. Better to see if something actually happens. All the reports coming out about this are pretty typical posturing.

Coeur · Post #6 » by **Coeur** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:37 pm

I’m impressed when you have a trade like this that doesn’t need a bunch of picks to balance it out. Should mean you are close.

I like wall to the thunder idea.

Mostly I think you might just be trying to avoid Cp3 to wolves ideas

Dat2U · Post #7 » by **Dat2U** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:40 pm

I don't understand it from the Wizards perspective. Just seems like were swapping contracts without a specific goal in mind.

Post #8 » by **BBallFreak** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:41 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:OKC isn't going to add any draft picks of note in a CP to Miami deal.

JJ, Dion, Dragic for CP, Nader, Burton is where I am. But on the board here both sides are dug in. It's not really worth continuing to debate. Better to see if something actually happens. All the reports coming out about this are pretty typical posturing.

I'd, personally, just as soon leave him to you guys. I don't want him around our youth, and I think he'd alienate Butler. I'd rather go just about anywhere else, rather than Chris Paul to Miami...

Kizz Fastfists · Post #9 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:42 pm

This is terrible for everyone except the Heat.

Post #10 » by **BBallFreak** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:45 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:This is terrible for everyone except the Heat.

This is awful for us, too. Paying CP3 $44 million to play less than 60 games a season and hamper my team's ability to improve is not my idea of a good deal.

Kizz Fastfists · Post #11 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:53 pm

BBallFreak wrote:I'd, personally, just as soon leave him to you guys. I don't want him around our youth, and I think he'd alienate Butler. I'd rather go just about anywhere else, rather than Chris Paul to Miami...

What youth? Miami traded their only quality youth, Richardson, for a 30 yr old locker room cancer. Bam is an old school center with no mid-range game making him of almost no value in the current NBA. Bam's average shooting distance is on par with Noel and WCS! Herro was a late lottery pick in a very weak draft. Winslow is a solid role player, but he shouldn't be expected to become a star. Miami can't trade a first round pick until the 2028 picks unlock. No marquee FA is going to sign to play with an aging Butler and if Miami is banking on the 2021 FA class they would have kept Richardson who will be better than Butler at that time due to career trajectories from age.

Pat Riley backed himself into a corner. He has given himself a very short window for competing. Paul fits that window and gives Miami a chance to make the 2nd round. If Miami does nothing they are likely to finish where they did last year watching the playoffs at home. If Riley had made moves to clear out his cap space for 2021 to try to chase multiple max FAs like he did with LeBron and Bosh while keeping Richardson and Winslow as home grown players on decent contracts then I could understand what Miami was doing. Right now it looks like Riley is either losing it mentally or just chasing names and ignoring on the court production. Butler is a bigger name than Richardson, but their on the court impact is very similar and one is entering their prime while the other is entering their decline.

Kizz Fastfists · Post #12 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:57 pm

BBallFreak wrote:This is awful for us, too. Paying CP3 $44 million to play less than 60 games a season and hamper my team's ability to improve is not my idea of a good deal.

Unfortunately for Heat fans trading for CP3 is their only realistic chance to improve. Riley been really bad the last few off-seasons. It really is time for him to move on. I'm not saying the Heat should trade for CP3, but if Riley is trying to make one last run before he rides off into the sunset then CP3/Butler is the best he is going to get. At age 74 the clock is ticking. If he was thinking 3-4 years down the road then getting rid of Richardson for Butler makes no sense. Riley has to be thinking short-term which means he'll likely end up giving up his few mediocre assets for CP3 or he'll give them up for some other aging vet to go with Butler that will give the team a few playoff runs, but nothing special.

The Riley treadmill can't be fun for Heat fans. I'm Paul George forced Presti to finally put the OKC treadmill out of it's misery.

Post #13 » by **pacers33granger** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:58 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
What youth? Miami traded their only quality youth, Richardson, for a 30 yr old locker room cancer.

So the solution is to trade for a 34 year old locker room cancer? And they still have youth. Bam, Herro, Winslow, and Okpala are youth worth mentioning, even if none of them are star prospects.

Whoever takes Paul is going to have to receive some sort of real assets to do so. Not just because of his contract, but because the guy has had some real issues with alienating teammates in multiple spots now.

rugbyrugger23 · Post #14 » by **rugbyrugger23** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:This is terrible for everyone except the Heat.

If you think OKC is getting a better deal than this for Paul -- you better be ready to hang on to him long term.

Post #15 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:08 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Kizz Fastfists wrote:
What youth? Miami traded their only quality youth, Richardson, for a 30 yr old locker room cancer.

So the solution is to trade for a 34 year old locker room cancer? And they still have youth. Bam, Herro, Winslow, and Okpala are youth worth mentioning, even if none of them are star prospects.

Whoever takes Paul is going to have to receive some sort of real assets to do so. Not just because of his contract, but because the guy has had some real issues with alienating teammates in multiple spots now.

Obviously there is still a good amount of talented youth in Miami. It's not really helpful to suggest otherwise.

Karmaloop · Post #16 » by **Karmaloop** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:17 pm

BBallFreak wrote:Miami needs picks to do this deal, and not second rounders, either. We need our two returned to us.

Not sure what leverage Miami has to justify that argument. They take an extra year of salary with Chris Paul for the 2021/22 season, since he won't decline his PO. Meanwhile, James Johnson and Dion Waiters will make ~$28.7M in 2020/21, while CP3 makes $41.4M. The problem is the Heat can't effectively trade their FRP until 2025 at the earliest, so Dragic's expiring contract really only has value if they're taking on long-term salary. Given they gave Jimmy Butler a sizeable contract, they seem less likely to go into asset collecting mode. This smells like the Rockets/Westbrook situation.

Post #17 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Karmaloop wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Miami needs picks to do this deal, and not second rounders, either. We need our two returned to us.

Not sure what leverage Miami has to justify that argument. They take an extra year of salary with Chris Paul for the 2021/22 season, since he won't decline his PO. Meanwhile, James Johnson and Dion Waiters will make ~$28.7M in 2020/21, while CP3 makes $41.4M. The problem is the Heat can't effectively trade their FRP until 2025 at the earliest, so Dragic's expiring contract really only has value if they're taking on long-term salary. Given they gave Jimmy Butler a sizeable contract, they seem less likely to go into asset collecting mode. This smells like the Rockets/Westbrook situation.

This is what I'm hoping for, but we will see. I could see the Heat standing firm in the short term, as the longer CP is with the Thunder the more potential issues he could create, but I do think Miami needs to add around Butler if they want to be a top East team, and I don't think they have many options beyond CP for that unless they put all their youth in a trade. Butler is pretty old, waiting isn't the best idea. And Beal isn't available nor could MIA meet the price if he was.

Karmaloop · Post #18 » by **Karmaloop** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:24 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:This is what I'm hoping for, but we will see. I could see the Heat standing firm in the short term, as the longer CP is with the Thunder the more potential issues he could create, but I do think Miami needs to add around Butler if they want to be a top East team, and I don't think they have many options beyond CP for that unless they put all their youth in a trade. Butler is pretty old, waiting isn't the best idea. And Beal isn't available nor could MIA meet the price if he was.

Miami standing pat doesn't do a thing for them IMO. They're a middle of the pack Eastern Conference team that probably tops out in the 2nd round depending on the first round matchups. Jimmy Butler is good, but he's not great. They need to capitalize on the short window with Jimmy Butler and the parity in the NBA.

On an unrelated note, who has to add what to a John Wall/Chris Paul swap?

rugbyrugger23 · Post #19 » by **rugbyrugger23** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Dat2U wrote:I don't understand it from the Wizards perspective. Just seems like were swapping contracts without a specific goal in mind.

I said why in OP. But to expand...

Wiggins gets a fresh start on new team in new situation. Can the 24yo fit well with Beal and become his Robin? Adams is 25yo center who can also gets a fresh start (1st season without Westbrook). Can he prove to be a core member with Beal and Wiggins?

Wizards also get more cap flexibility. Being Wiggins contract is 10ish million per year less than Wall contract.

Wizards would be a consolidation trade from being a real contender. They would have expiring contract(s) + Hachimura + TBJ + Wagner + FFRP(s) to build a very nice package for a star player to join their core (if new core proving to gel and be successful). Who does such a package fetch at trade deadline?

Post #20 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:35 pm

Karmaloop wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:This is what I'm hoping for, but we will see. I could see the Heat standing firm in the short term, as the longer CP is with the Thunder the more potential issues he could create, but I do think Miami needs to add around Butler if they want to be a top East team, and I don't think they have many options beyond CP for that unless they put all their youth in a trade. Butler is pretty old, waiting isn't the best idea. And Beal isn't available nor could MIA meet the price if he was.

Miami standing pat doesn't do a thing for them IMO. They're a middle of the pack Eastern Conference team that probably tops out in the 2nd round depending on the first round matchups. Jimmy Butler is good, but he's not great. They need to capitalize on the short window with Jimmy Butler and the parity in the NBA.

On an unrelated note, who has to add what to a John Wall/Chris Paul swap?

From an outsider? Washington does. Wall is just starting his 5 year massive deal while Paul has only 3 years left.