Tatum for Siakam

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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#41 » by mademan » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:49 pm

We need to pass this idea that they are, right now, similar level players. Siakim was significantly better last year, and Tatum stagnating year 1 to year 2 is problematic, regardless of his age.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#42 » by Mr Swagtastic » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:18 pm

So if Toronto passed on a George for a Siakam deal to keep Kawhi why do they now move him for Tatum? I get Tatum has big time scorer to him but to me he won't be a defensive stopper the way Pascal is.

Toronto I think it's happy with Pascal
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#43 » by CoachD » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:04 pm

euroleague wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:You heavily implied it. Otherwise, the comparison is pointless. You could have just as easily used Pierce and Rudy Gay as comparisons, but that points to the opposite result you're advocating for.

Rudy Gay doesn't make any sense. We saw LBJ and Pierce go head to head in 2008, and they were rivals as stated by LBJ himself. The primary difference was Pierce was many years older and not nearly the defender. Pierce won the championship, LBJ got eliminated in the ECSF.

Rudy Gay has absolutely no parallels with this situation. Nowhere was the skill level equated, except for your imagination, however the situation is pretty obviously relevant.

pacers33granger wrote:I don't see how 25 is someone's athletic peak. There's typically a few more years of growth. And I do not think Siakam can be the best offensive player on a title team, but there's no evidence that Tatum can either.

At 25 your quick-twitch muscles are no longer developing. You can gain endurance, but most track and field athletes focusing on explosive and short-distance related events peak around 24-25. Tatum in his rookie

pacers33granger wrote:Tatum really has not shown that kind of offensive skill. Very skilled no doubt, but it's hyperbole to say he's shown Kobe-esque abilities on that end.

Watching Kobe early in his career, it's definitely a safe comparison. Kobe was not this good in his rookie year, or even close. They have very similar skill sets, albeit different mind sets.

pacers33granger wrote:I don't think they're similar level players. One had an outstanding breakout season culminating in a title as the 2nd option. The other had an underwhelming regression that, while still good, had people questioning the ceiling of the player and most realizing they need to pump the brakes on expectations.

Siakam had a great season, but Tatum's playoff run was arguably better than Siakam's. Siakam averaged .5ppg more on 4% lower TS as the second option than Tatum did as the highest scorer on his team.

Siakam struggled in the playoffs, but nobody pumped any breaks because Fred VanVleet and Lowry stepped up huge. Siakam wasn't the second option for much of the playoffs, or even the 3rd best player. Siakam averaged 14ppg on 47% TS against the Bucks and 19ppg on 53% TS against the 76ers. His defense wasn't that exceptional. It's exciting how much he's improved since last year, but to say he was the second best player on the Raptors during the playoffs is a giant stretch.

Tatum, meanwhile, was the first option and second best player on the Celtics. Just because they didn't incorporate Kyrie and Hayward in successfully, doesn't mean pump the breaks until he's less valuable than Siakam. Ben Simmons vs Tatum was a reasonable debate, although it seems like Simmons projects higher. Simmons is clearly better than Siakam already, but Tatum is pretty close to Siakam by most measures.



Kawhi and Siakam tied for second (with MJ and pippen) highest scoring duo in a single playoff season.

But Siakam wasn't the 2nd option very much and he struggled a lot right?
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#44 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:27 pm

CoachD wrote:
euroleague wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:You heavily implied it. Otherwise, the comparison is pointless. You could have just as easily used Pierce and Rudy Gay as comparisons, but that points to the opposite result you're advocating for.

Rudy Gay doesn't make any sense. We saw LBJ and Pierce go head to head in 2008, and they were rivals as stated by LBJ himself. The primary difference was Pierce was many years older and not nearly the defender. Pierce won the championship, LBJ got eliminated in the ECSF.

Rudy Gay has absolutely no parallels with this situation. Nowhere was the skill level equated, except for your imagination, however the situation is pretty obviously relevant.

pacers33granger wrote:I don't see how 25 is someone's athletic peak. There's typically a few more years of growth. And I do not think Siakam can be the best offensive player on a title team, but there's no evidence that Tatum can either.

At 25 your quick-twitch muscles are no longer developing. You can gain endurance, but most track and field athletes focusing on explosive and short-distance related events peak around 24-25. Tatum in his rookie

pacers33granger wrote:Tatum really has not shown that kind of offensive skill. Very skilled no doubt, but it's hyperbole to say he's shown Kobe-esque abilities on that end.

Watching Kobe early in his career, it's definitely a safe comparison. Kobe was not this good in his rookie year, or even close. They have very similar skill sets, albeit different mind sets.

pacers33granger wrote:I don't think they're similar level players. One had an outstanding breakout season culminating in a title as the 2nd option. The other had an underwhelming regression that, while still good, had people questioning the ceiling of the player and most realizing they need to pump the brakes on expectations.

Siakam had a great season, but Tatum's playoff run was arguably better than Siakam's. Siakam averaged .5ppg more on 4% lower TS as the second option than Tatum did as the highest scorer on his team.

Siakam struggled in the playoffs, but nobody pumped any breaks because Fred VanVleet and Lowry stepped up huge. Siakam wasn't the second option for much of the playoffs, or even the 3rd best player. Siakam averaged 14ppg on 47% TS against the Bucks and 19ppg on 53% TS against the 76ers. His defense wasn't that exceptional. It's exciting how much he's improved since last year, but to say he was the second best player on the Raptors during the playoffs is a giant stretch.

Tatum, meanwhile, was the first option and second best player on the Celtics. Just because they didn't incorporate Kyrie and Hayward in successfully, doesn't mean pump the breaks until he's less valuable than Siakam. Ben Simmons vs Tatum was a reasonable debate, although it seems like Simmons projects higher. Simmons is clearly better than Siakam already, but Tatum is pretty close to Siakam by most measures.



Kawhi and Siakam tied for second (with MJ and pippen) highest scoring duo in a single playoff season.

But Siakam wasn't the 2nd option very much and he struggled a lot right?

No they didn’t, not by averages

Shaq and Kobe in 01 - 30 ppg and 29ppg
KD and Curry in 17 - 29 ppg and 28 ppg
Kawhi and Siakam - 31 ppg and 19ppg

Tell me which one doesn’t belong
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#45 » by Djh7475 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:31 pm

Could see this as a deal where both sides say no, but the Celtics certainly wouldn’t entertain it.Tatum is a hair over 4 years younger and has an additional rookie year left on his contract. Siakam wasn’t even on NBA radars when he was the age Tatum was in his rookie/sophomore seasons.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#46 » by WICKED17 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:46 pm

Makes sense for the Cs, value solid. IMO, this is the classic neither gm wants to part with their current player.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#47 » by brackdan70 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:45 am

Meh. Value might be close but I would pass if I am the Celtics. Tatum is 4 years younger and has one additional year on his rookie deal. Seems like higher value but IDK. Siakam has a very good season, 1 good season, but it’s not like he is AD or something.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#48 » by Prospect Dong » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:11 am

euroleague wrote:
CoachD wrote:
euroleague wrote:Rudy Gay doesn't make any sense. We saw LBJ and Pierce go head to head in 2008, and they were rivals as stated by LBJ himself. The primary difference was Pierce was many years older and not nearly the defender. Pierce won the championship, LBJ got eliminated in the ECSF.

Rudy Gay has absolutely no parallels with this situation. Nowhere was the skill level equated, except for your imagination, however the situation is pretty obviously relevant.


At 25 your quick-twitch muscles are no longer developing. You can gain endurance, but most track and field athletes focusing on explosive and short-distance related events peak around 24-25. Tatum in his rookie


Watching Kobe early in his career, it's definitely a safe comparison. Kobe was not this good in his rookie year, or even close. They have very similar skill sets, albeit different mind sets.


Siakam had a great season, but Tatum's playoff run was arguably better than Siakam's. Siakam averaged .5ppg more on 4% lower TS as the second option than Tatum did as the highest scorer on his team.

Siakam struggled in the playoffs, but nobody pumped any breaks because Fred VanVleet and Lowry stepped up huge. Siakam wasn't the second option for much of the playoffs, or even the 3rd best player. Siakam averaged 14ppg on 47% TS against the Bucks and 19ppg on 53% TS against the 76ers. His defense wasn't that exceptional. It's exciting how much he's improved since last year, but to say he was the second best player on the Raptors during the playoffs is a giant stretch.

Tatum, meanwhile, was the first option and second best player on the Celtics. Just because they didn't incorporate Kyrie and Hayward in successfully, doesn't mean pump the breaks until he's less valuable than Siakam. Ben Simmons vs Tatum was a reasonable debate, although it seems like Simmons projects higher. Simmons is clearly better than Siakam already, but Tatum is pretty close to Siakam by most measures.



Kawhi and Siakam tied for second (with MJ and pippen) highest scoring duo in a single playoff season.

But Siakam wasn't the 2nd option very much and he struggled a lot right?

No they didn’t, not by averages

Shaq and Kobe in 01 - 30 ppg and 29ppg
KD and Curry in 17 - 29 ppg and 28 ppg
Kawhi and Siakam - 31 ppg and 19ppg

Tell me which one doesn’t belong


Yeah, this is a pretty irrelevant talking point: "when you combine his above-average scoring with Kawhi's really high scoring, it adds up to very high scoring! That means he must have scored a lot!". We know how Siakam scored in the playoffs. It was pretty good, but not insane. Maybe he gets even better next year - that was the plan for Tatum, too, though. But there's no reason to bundle him with a much better player when measuring his impact except obfuscation.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#49 » by Trader_Joe » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:28 am

I'd say Siakam has a slight edge value wise. He's a game changer now and for the foreseeable future. Personally, I'd much rather have him on the Nets. He would be absolutely perfect.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#50 » by ill-Will03 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:12 am

Siakam definitely has more value than Tatum, idk how it's even an argument that Paskal was our 2nd best player, he dropped 32 8 5 on 14-17 shooting in his FIRST finals game. When comparing their resumes Paskal has done more, the stats and the eye test proves that. As it stands right now the gap between them is pretty significant.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#51 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:15 am

CoachD wrote:
CsBsSoxPhins wrote:Man people are really sleeping on Tatum. Siakam is really good & even the better player right now, but he's also four years old, so I mean, I would hope he's the better player. Tatum's rookie season beats out either of Siakam's first two years in the NBA.



Tatum started played basketball when he was 6
Siakam started playing organized ball at 16, just before his 17th birthday.

So please don't bring the "well he's 4 years older he should be better"


:noway: There's a big difference between being able to play pee wee league and having extra years to develope in college and the pros, this should be beyond obvious.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#52 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:28 am

ill-Will03 wrote:Siakam definitely has more value than Tatum, idk how it's even an argument that Paskal was our 2nd best player, he dropped 32 8 5 on 14-17 shooting in his FIRST finals game. When comparing their resumes Paskal has done more, the stats and the eye test proves that. As it stands right now the gap between them is pretty significant.


:-? I love how the same Raptor fans that label Tatum as "overhyped" for a small sample size after his rookie season are the same ones praising Siakam. How exactly has he done more? Siakam averaged 37 minutes in the playoffs, were he posted a 54 ts% (19 points on 16 shots). His efficiency plummeted with more attempts just like everyone critized Tatum for. Saying the gap between the two is significant is just ridiculous, I guarentee GM's don't believe that. Why don't we just say the obvious, fans value their own players more. Tatum was overhyped coming in to the season and now Siakam is seeing the same. Let's see how he does without a top five player next to him for a season.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#53 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:34 am

Mr Swagtastic wrote:So if Toronto passed on a George for a Siakam deal to keep Kawhi why do they now move him for Tatum? I get Tatum has big time scorer to him but to me he won't be a defensive stopper the way Pascal is.

Toronto I think it's happy with Pascal


I would be too if I were Toronto. How is he a defensive stopper though? In fact Tatum posted better defensive metrics as a rookie than Siakam has in any season.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#54 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:33 am

Toronto has no interest in trading a player of Siakam's skillset (potential 20 pt scorer + elite defense + 3pt spacing + one of the best motors in the league) for a poor man's Melo. Siakam had a better scoring season last year while having way more non scoring impact
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#55 » by Duffman100 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:07 pm

BoogieTime wrote:Not a fan of either, relatively. Siakam is a gangly, awkward player with little wiggle.


:lol: Oh boy...

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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#56 » by Mr Swagtastic » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
Mr Swagtastic wrote:So if Toronto passed on a George for a Siakam deal to keep Kawhi why do they now move him for Tatum? I get Tatum has big time scorer to him but to me he won't be a defensive stopper the way Pascal is.

Toronto I think it's happy with Pascal


I would be too if I were Toronto. How is he a defensive stopper though? In fact Tatum posted better defensive metrics as a rookie than Siakam has in any season.
Look at the games were Pascal guarded the teams best offensive player. Look at the play where he blew up the past pass to Giannis Antetokounmpo. Pascal is a legit defensive stopper look at the tape. He's calling out plays to his teammates, switching to play defense on guards or bigs and just moves really well then leaks out for easy transition buckets. Read this article https://hashtagbasketball.com/toronto-raptors/content/pascal-siakam-absolute-machine/amp

Look Tatum is going to be a big time scorer and he's younger but I don't see how he's going to guard big defensive wings. Giannis Antetokounmpo killed him and I have seen metrics were their defense is actually worse with him on the floor. I get it he's young and still has to mature into his body but Toronto is better off keeping Pascal Siakam. IMHO he's got potential to be a 20-10 player with upper tier defensive numbers
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#57 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Youtube arguments are the least convincing ones out there to me:

Spoiler:
Youtube video of those Embiid blocks on Siakam goes here, right?
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#58 » by Duffman100 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:30 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:Youtube arguments are the least convincing ones out there to me:

Spoiler:
Youtube video of those Embiid blocks on Siakam goes here, right?


When someone says Siakam is gangly and has little 'wiggle'. Yes, a Youtube video quickly refutes that. In fact I could post many youtube videos that would quickly refute that.

#2 option on a championship team and yet someone isn't sure about him. I mean c'mon...
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#59 » by Asif16 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:12 pm

Tatum is massively overrated. Siakam is significantly better.

Raps say hell no
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#60 » by Prokorov » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:47 am

Laimbeer wrote:Small filler may be needed. Comments on the value are welcome, I think it's reasonably close.

This eases the Tatum/Brown/Hayward/Smart glut while filling the four.

Tatum perhaps has the greater potential to break into the Batman type player Toronto needs.


light for toronto. maybe boston adds their own pick or langford?
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