Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[FlatearthZorro]

Maybe in big time games otherwise the most simple thing to do is watch hia defense in the playoffs... The past few years he was legit disinterested and saving energy for offense.

[freethedevil]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

It also doesn't account for the fact the first half the season he wasn't guarding anyone and in the 2nd half he got shut down so his stats are heavily skewed because of Lonzo.

There is one stat that kind of illustrates this if you take a look at his pre and post allstar numbers. BBREF has his DTR pre allstar 108. Post 112.

Hold up, you're telling me that a defender..without a defensive anchor, is going to have a worse defensive rating?

Tell me, what do you think happens to klay's d rating if we take out draymond green.

[sca]

He doesn’t pass the eye test. Almost Shaqtin’ a fool-James Harden a few years ago level...

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

Defense is 50% effort, 25% skill & 25% athleticism/physical attributes. The eye test definitely has limits, but it clearly exposes a player’s lackadaisical attitude towards certain possessions that cannot be validated by mere statistics.

LeBron used to be a great defender, but he definitely slowed down and it’s not due to physical limitations but with his lack of interest. He definitely checked out when he realized how difficult it is to rule the West.

Just my two cents...

Eric Moreland is very athletic for his size, and he definitely gives 100% effort on defense. But he's a terrible defender, because he floats around like a headless chicken, and lacks the fundamentals, so he bites on fakes, constantly gets out of position, and ends up doing stupid things which hurts his team more often than not.

The cliche about defense being 75% effort and skill, 100% effort etc. needs to stop. It's not realistic by any means.

[RakimAbdulJabar]

He doesn’t pass the eye test. Almost Shaqtin’ a fool-James Harden a few years ago level...

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

What? No, how about this situation, fast break and Lebron is back on defense and just steps out of the way or makes a half ass effort, his teammate has to slide over and picks up a foul to prevent an easylayup. The other team didn't score but someone had to pick up a foul.

Also players missing a good shot doesn't absolve the bad defense as it leads to not only bad habits but you're supposed to be leading by example. Teammates might start thinking well if Lebron isn't going to bother giving 100% then why should I?

The eye test absolutely has a place in judging defense as long as your eyes can send that information to a brain capable of analysing what they just saw and coming to a rational conclusion. Lebron isn't a bad defender unless he's not giving effort, in those cases yes he is, it's not rocket salad

[RCM88x]

He doesn’t pass the eye test. Almost Shaqtin’ a fool-James Harden a few years ago level...

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

What? No, how about this situation, fast break and Lebron is back on defense and just steps out of the way or makes a half ass effort, his teammate has to slide over and picks up a foul to prevent an easylayup. The other team didn't score but someone had to pick up a foul.

Also players missing a good shot doesn't absolve the bad defense as it leads to not only bad habits but you're supposed to be leading by example. Teammates might start thinking well if Lebron isn't going to bother giving 100% then why should I?

The eye test absolutely has a place in judging defense as long as your eyes can send that information to a brain capable of analysing what they just saw and coming to a rational conclusion. Lebron isn't a bad defender unless he's not giving effort, in those cases yes he is, it's not rocket salad

Whatever you say. I'll take the defensive players and defense of which their opponents score against the least.

[tidho]

All this proves is the limitations of those statistics.

Its not that LeBron can't be a good defender, its that he often chooses not to be.
How anyone that watches him in the regular season doesn't see that is beyond me.

[markjay]

Not going to argue that he is a horrific defender (or not), but that is not a proof.

It does not include if Lebron avoids difficult situations to the detriment of his teams defensive success and just (cherry) picks easy situations where he wants to defend(who produce a good statistical output).

That claim seems to be contradicted by this:

Lakers are 3.1 points per possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

[Hangtime84]

If we going by the eye test. Lebron even in his younger days was an amazing help defender. Cavs and Miami typically had him guarding the worst offensive player for him to help off of.

Only during tight situations lebron would actually guard the best offensive players.

Lebron still plays a Free Safety type role simply because all he used to do. He obviously isn’t as quick to do what he used to do

[RakimAbdulJabar]

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

What? No, how about this situation, fast break and Lebron is back on defense and just steps out of the way or makes a half ass effort, his teammate has to slide over and picks up a foul to prevent an easylayup. The other team didn't score but someone had to pick up a foul.

Also players missing a good shot doesn't absolve the bad defense as it leads to not only bad habits but you're supposed to be leading by example. Teammates might start thinking well if Lebron isn't going to bother giving 100% then why should I?

The eye test absolutely has a place in judging defense as long as your eyes can send that information to a brain capable of analysing what they just saw and coming to a rational conclusion. Lebron isn't a bad defender unless he's not giving effort, in those cases yes he is, it's not rocket salad

Whatever you say. I'll take the defensive players and defense of which their opponents score against the least.

OK cool, so you’re not interested in context

[Richfield]

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

These stats are facts when taking into account LeBron in defensive situations. They are also cherry-picked specific situations. They're also an example of how stats can be used to tell lies.

LeBron is a talented defender when he wants to be, I'm not arguing that even a little bit.

What I've bolded shows him in situations where he's already back on defense. What LeBron has done a significant (noticable) percentage of the time is not get back on defense at all. These numbers don't talk about transition defense at all, which is LeBron's achilles heal in terms of effort. Sure he'll get a chase down block in a playoff game here and there. But if it's the regular season, especially the first 2/3 of the season, you can't rely on him to be present defensively, especially in transition.

Additionally, talking the numbers above, when he IS back and set on defense, 20%, 27%, 30%, and 43% aren't as impressive as you may be giving him credit for. LeBron has the mind and body to be much better than 1 out of every 5 guys in the league at defense. League stats take into account bench players, rookies, and fringe starters, and specialists that can't play D very well. I would hope in this league of hundreds that he'd be better that the next 20 (1/20) or next 50 (1/50) or more guys (top 5% or top 2%), if he is going to be thought of as an elite defender. The numbers you presented show that his talent combined with lack of effort skews numbers from what he should be to lesser numbers in the teens, twenties, or worse, percentage wise.

The frustrations with LeBron's D is the lack of effort getting back, where he prefers to walk or talk to a ref. I don't see transition defensive stats anywhere in your post. Very important as on any given night most teams miss over 50% of their shots. Additionally when the team is back on D, he can be just as lazy in defending, and I think the numbers you provided, when taking into account his great potential as a defender, support that.

This is why folks rag on LeBron's "defense" or lack there of. And that is without even discussing the effect it has on team moral and cohesion when one guy chooses not to get back (talking to ref or just walking) or when he doesn't make the switch because he is conceding the play. These are more difficult arguments to make, but just sticking with the numbers you provided there's enough there to see he's not doing all he can defensively. He coasts.

[Richfield]

Not going to argue that he is a horrific defender (or not), but that is not a proof.

It does not include if Lebron avoids difficult situations to the detriment of his teams defensive success and just (cherry) picks easy situations where he wants to defend(who produce a good statistical output).

That claim seems to be contradicted by this:

Lakers are 3.1 points per possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

"3.1 points per possession BETTER"

Hmmm....

Hmmmmmmm.....

I haven't made it to the sentence after this one yet.

[NbaAllDay]

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

These stats are facts when taking into account LeBron in defensive situations. They are also cherry-picked specific situations. They're also an example of how stats can be used to tell lies.

LeBron is a talented defender when he wants to be, I'm not arguing that even a little bit.

What I've bolded shows him in situations where he's already back on defense. What LeBron has done a significant (noticable) percentage of the time is not get back on defense at all. These numbers don't talk about transition defense at all, which is LeBron's achilles heal in terms of effort. Sure he'll get a chase down block in a playoff game here and there. But if it's the regular season, especially the first 2/3 of the season, you can't rely on him to be present defensively, especially in transition.

Additionally, talking the numbers above, when he IS back and set on defense, 20%, 27%, 30%, and 43% aren't as impressive as you may be giving him credit for. LeBron has the mind and body to be much better than 1 out of every 5 guys in the league at defense. League stats take into account bench players, rookies, and fringe starters, and specialists that can't play D very well. I would hope in this league of hundreds that he'd be better that the next 20 (1/20) or next 50 (1/50) or more guys (top 5% or top 2%), if he is going to be thought of as an elite defender. The numbers you presented show that his talent combined with lack of effort skews numbers from what he should be to lesser numbers in the teens, twenties, or worse, percentage wise.

The frustrations with LeBron's D is the lack of effort getting back, where he prefers to walk or talk to a ref. I don't see transition defensive stats anywhere in your post. Very important as on any given night most teams miss over 50% of their shots. Additionally when the team is back on D, he can be just as lazy in defending, and I think the numbers you provided, when taking into account his great potential as a defender, support that.

This is why folks rag on LeBron's "defense" or lack there of. And that is without even discussing the effect it has on team moral and cohesion when one guy chooses not to get back (talking to ref or just walking) or when he doesn't make the switch because he is conceding the play. These are more difficult arguments to make, but just sticking with the numbers you provided there's enough there to see he's not doing all he can defensively. He coasts.

Your post is honestly all talk and no substance. Please give me some measurable data to prove Lebron "does not get back on D"

There is also a difference between not doing all you can defensively and still not being s negative defender.

He is good enough on D to not give 100% and when he does give effort it is very impactful. There are more than these so called "cherry picked stats" that have already been mentioned. So for example, if he gives effort only 70% of the time and impacts the game on D at 90% effeciency. He is better than someone who gives 100% effort and is only 50% efficient.

Eye test is a horrible form of judgement for a number of reasons and is even worse so on Defense. We often notice the bad 10 times before we remember the good.

[KrAzY3]

Your post is honestly all talk and no substance. Please give me some measurable data to prove Lebron "does not get back on D".

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-better-way-to-evaluate-nba-defense/

How about this? You'll have to scroll down a lot to find LeBron, he's down there below Curry.

It isn't just the eye test, there is data out there demonstrating this fact. Also, and this was a couple seasons ago, LeBron was measured as one of the slowest on court players in the NBA. Obviously that's not physical limitations, that's because he chose to take his time getting up and down the court to save his energy. The problem is that also means he wasn't back on D all the time (and he won't get blamed in most cases because the guy scoring often isn't his man, but it's hard to defend short a player).

[Johnny Bball]

Lol ...he was a bad, bored and uninterested defender last year.

[Richfield]

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

These stats are facts when taking into account LeBron in defensive situations. They are also cherry-picked specific situations. They're also an example of how stats can be used to tell lies.

LeBron is a talented defender when he wants to be, I'm not arguing that even a little bit.

What I've bolded shows him in situations where he's already back on defense. What LeBron has done a significant (noticable) percentage of the time is not get back on defense at all. These numbers don't talk about transition defense at all, which is LeBron's achilles heal in terms of effort. Sure he'll get a chase down block in a playoff game here and there. But if it's the regular season, especially the first 2/3 of the season, you can't rely on him to be present defensively, especially in transition.

Additionally, talking the numbers above, when he IS back and set on defense, 20%, 27%, 30%, and 43% aren't as impressive as you may be giving him credit for. LeBron has the mind and body to be much better than 1 out of every 5 guys in the league at defense. League stats take into account bench players, rookies, and fringe starters, and specialists that can't play D very well. I would hope in this league of hundreds that he'd be better that the next 20 (1/20) or next 50 (1/50) or more guys (top 5% or top 2%), if he is going to be thought of as an elite defender. The numbers you presented show that his talent combined with lack of effort skews numbers from what he should be to lesser numbers in the teens, twenties, or worse, percentage wise.

The frustrations with LeBron's D is the lack of effort getting back, where he prefers to walk or talk to a ref. I don't see transition defensive stats anywhere in your post. Very important as on any given night most teams miss over 50% of their shots. Additionally when the team is back on D, he can be just as lazy in defending, and I think the numbers you provided, when taking into account his great potential as a defender, support that.

This is why folks rag on LeBron's "defense" or lack there of. And that is without even discussing the effect it has on team moral and cohesion when one guy chooses not to get back (talking to ref or just walking) or when he doesn't make the switch because he is conceding the play. These are more difficult arguments to make, but just sticking with the numbers you provided there's enough there to see he's not doing all he can defensively. He coasts.

Your post is honestly all talk and no substance. Please give me some measurable data to prove Lebron "does not get back on D"

There is also a difference between not doing all you can defensively and still not being s negative defender.

He is good enough on D to not give 100% and when he does give effort it is very impactful. There are more than these so called "cherry picked stats" that have already been mentioned. So for example, if he gives effort only 70% of the time and impacts the game on D at 90% effeciency. He is better than someone who gives 100% effort and is only 50% efficient.

Eye test is a horrible form of judgement for a number of reasons and is even worse so on Defense. We often notice the bad 10 times before we remember the good.

For what NBA dot Com does not provide, you must use those round things in the middle of your skull.

When advanced stats start measuring stuff like not getting back on D I'll have more respect for advanced stats.

Your hypothetical percentage sentence shows you know how to multiply. But it doesn't show you know how to analyze. You have to consider what is efficient. What does the other 30% (of the 70% of the time stat you mentioned) cost? If it's 2 points, versus what is efficient, you have some more math to do.

You mention "eye test" as if I didn't present statistical analysis of the numbers. Yes they were presented with words too, so you have to do some thinking and interpreting, but it's not the "eye test" I am arguing with. It's the numbers. But the eye test does support what the numbers have shown, especially if you look back further in his career (also mentioned in this thread).

Your post shows enough lack of understanding that I don't think I can really help you understand the points being made. Good luck.

[KqWIN]

Your post is honestly all talk and no substance. Please give me some measurable data to prove Lebron "does not get back on D".

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-better-way-to-evaluate-nba-defense/

How about this? You'll have to scroll down a lot to find LeBron, he's down there below Curry.

It isn't just the eye test, there is data out there demonstrating this fact. Also, and this was a couple seasons ago, LeBron was measured as one of the slowest on court players in the NBA. Obviously that's not physical limitations, that's because he chose to take his time getting up and down the court to save his energy. The problem is that also means he wasn't back on D all the time (and he won't get blamed in most cases because the guy scoring often isn't his man, but it's hard to defend short a player).

That's just one way to evaluate defense on paper, and if you noticed he's also right above Beverley and Igoudala as well.

LeBron is solid or better in pretty much every statistical approach. RAPM, RPM, PIPM, DRAYMOND, BPM...I'm not saying any of these are the holy grail on their own, but they take different approaches and all agree.

When everything agrees, there has to be a substantial "eye test" argument to override that. Let's honest about what the standard eye test is...There's a greater chance that came from a twitter video or meme than actually watching a full game. Not to mention a full game with a critical eye and good understand of defense.

[markjay]

Not going to argue that he is a horrific defender (or not), but that is not a proof.

It does not include if Lebron avoids difficult situations to the detriment of his teams defensive success and just (cherry) picks easy situations where he wants to defend(who produce a good statistical output).

That claim seems to be contradicted by this:

Lakers are 3.1 points per possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

"3.1 points per possession BETTER"

Hmmm....

Hmmmmmmm.....

I haven't made it to the sentence after this one yet.

Good catch. It seems that "per 100 possessions" was meant. And, it looks to me like the difference in opponent's ORtg per 100 possessions was actually 2.4 points, not 3.1 points --- not as much as was suggested, but still indicating that the Lakers defense got better when LeBron was on the court.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2019

[Richfield]

That claim seems to be contradicted by this:

Lakers are 3.1 points per possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

"3.1 points per possession BETTER"

Hmmm....

Hmmmmmmm.....

I haven't made it to the sentence after this one yet.

Good catch. It seems that "per 100 possessions" was meant. And, it looks to me like the difference in opponent's ORtg per 100 possessions was actually 2.4 points, not 3.1 points --- not as much as was suggested, but still indicating that the Lakers defense got better when LeBron was on the court.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2019

I figured the poster was claiming LeBron is a specialty player who only enters the game to stop Jamal Crawford 4 point plays.

Thanks for clarifying.

[The High Cyde]

The more I think about it, the more I see the Lakers being a menace defensively in the playoffs if they have Davis and LeBron healthy.

Ya'll seem to have forgotten, the amazing Miami Heat defense that LeBron anchored.
There are probably 3 players all time that could do what he did night in and night out while executing out-worldly offense like he did.

LeBron is not the defender he once was, where he was a legit DPOY material for a few years. But he's older now, with the 3rd most minutes on him in NBA history, like give the dude a break lol he's entitled to it.

I don't care, he has a lot of haters, with people straight up ignoring numbers and stats for the good old eye test. Just can't reason with people like that. I will trust math over a noob's eyes all day long. And the numbers say he's an alright defender. Good enough for me with LeBron at this age. It's called being realistic. The guy barely cares about the regular season anymore, and most stars don't. It's time we as fans adjust to that.

As long as he's on the floor, have the other guys pick up the slack, and he'll give you the best chance for a ring in June. That's literally all that matters here.

[phraoh]

The last time Lebron defended in the playoffs was 2016. He just doesn't or can't now. Not sure why people can't face the fact that he has played in the league 17 years, and can't exert the same amount of energy as he used to.