Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[Stannis]

If these are cherry picked stats, are there some defensive stats like those the OP listed that make guys like Harden and Curry look like top defenders?

[SwatLakeCity527]

Can we just let this thread die, please?

[Stannis]

It's no secret that LeBron had his lazy days on defense last season. It was unprofessional. You could tell he was just waiting for AD or some other star.

But he still has it in him. He is not slowing down like people think. He will be much more motivated this year, and I think we will see his Miami type defense.

[spikeslovechild]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

It also doesn't account for the fact the first half the season he wasn't guarding anyone and in the 2nd half he got shut down so his stats are heavily skewed because of Lonzo.

There is one stat that kind of illustrates this if you take a look at his pre and post allstar numbers. BBREF has his DTR pre allstar 108. Post 112.

Hold up, you're telling me that a defender..without a defensive anchor, is going to have a worse defensive rating?

Tell me, what do you think happens to klay's d rating if we take out draymond green.

It wasn't just worse it fell off a cliff once Lebron was forced to guard somebody and since Lonzo isn't walking through that door next year and they really never replaced his defense at PG maybe people should be looking at how Lebron played without him.

Instead of a bunch of meaningless data where Lebron didn't have to guard anyone.

[KrAzY3]

LeBron is solid or better in pretty much every statistical approach. RAPM, RPM, PIPM, DRAYMOND, BPM...I'm not saying any of these are the holy grail on their own, but they take different approaches and all agree.

It is probably unfair to LeBron that the GOAT discussion seems to hang over every aspect of his career, but I think that's a lot of what's happening now. It erodes his argument for being historically great, or the greatest active player.

Is LeBron a bad defender? Absolutely not! Even though he does take plays off and does things to conserve his energy, he's still above average. I wouldn't argue against that. But, because of that he's no longer elite either, and that matters when we're talking things like best player in the NBA. So I think there's two entirely different conversations that run into each other. Is Lebron a bad defender? No, he's not. Is he an elite defender? He's not anymore...

[KrisKringle]

The more I think about it, the more I see the Lakers being a menace defensively in the playoffs if they have Davis and LeBron healthy.

Ya'll seem to have forgotten, the amazing Miami Heat defense that LeBron anchored.
There are probably 3 players all time that could do what he did night in and night out while executing out-worldly offense like he did.

LeBron is not the defender he once was, where he was a legit DPOY material for a few years. But he's older now, with the 3rd most minutes on him in NBA history, like give the dude a break lol he's entitled to it.

I don't care, he has a lot of haters, with people straight up ignoring numbers and stats for the good old eye test. Just can't reason with people like that. I will trust math over a noob's eyes all day long. And the numbers say he's an alright defender. Good enough for me with LeBron at this age. It's called being realistic. The guy barely cares about the regular season anymore, and most stars don't. It's time we as fans adjust to that.

As long as he's on the floor, have the other guys pick up the slack, and he'll give you the best chance for a ring in June. That's literally all that matters here.

I don't see how a 28 year-old Lebron's defense is relevant to his defense now at all. He's turning 35 in the early part of this season with an unprecedented amount of miles on him. Age catches up with everyone even the all-time greats and it shows in his defense for sure.

[Arman_tanzarian]

Oh, wait. When looking at all the data available, the exact opposite is true. NBA.com has play type data available again and guess what? It shows that not only is James not a bad defender, but he’s rather a very good one.

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

Additionally, opponents whom James defends shoot 3.8% WORSE when defended by James. https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/

In December, they shot a whopping 9.8% WORSE.
https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=3

—Lakers are 3.1 points per possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2019

—James’ DRPM is 1.74, top 10% in the NBA. His DRPM is ahead of players such as Smart, Winslow, Butler, Ball, Dipo, Lowry, Kidd-Gilchrist, Tatum and Brown, KD, Simmons, LMA, [REST ARE ALL NEGATIVE DEFENDERS PER DRPM—Like James was last year]: Kawhi, Brogdon, Ingram, SGA

PICK AND ROLL BALL HANDLER (2+ defensive possessions per game, 50+ games played

James is 2nd best out of 141 players, top 6%, who defend 2+ such possessions per game.

https://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*2

HAND OFF DEFENSE (.5+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 5th out of 140 players in defending hand offs, top 10%.

https://stats.nba.com/players/hand-off/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=POSS*GE*.5:GP*GE*5

ISO DEFENSE (1+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 15th of 61 players, top 27% in points per possession allowed (.78)
ahead of Siakam, Draymond, Simmons, Klay, Aminu. For reference, Giannis allows .72 PPP.

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=POSS*GE*1:GP*GE*50

SPOT UP DEFENSE (3+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 35th of 94 players, top 43% in PPP allowed, ahead of Embiid, Brown, Lowry, Draymond, KD, Danny Green,

https://stats.nba.com/players/spot-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*3

ROLL MAN DEFENSE IN PICK AND ROLL (only .2 possessions per game)


Top 14% in the league

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*.

DEFENSE OFF SCREENS (.4+possessions per game)

James is 18th out of 163 players, top 20% in the NBA.

https://stats.nba.com/players/off-screen/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1

POST UP DEFENSE (.5+ possessions per game, 50+ games played)

James is 49th of 176 players, top 30%

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=POSS*GE*.5:GP*GE*5

Nice post but you should have known better. Under the current landscape of where society is going, we no longer accept empirical evidence as anything more than biased fake news these days. Today we just make up our own truths without any informed insights and swear by our biased opinions. We're basically around stage 3 of where Carl Sagan said we'd be in the future. Seems like it happened really fast though.

[The High Cyde]

The more I think about it, the more I see the Lakers being a menace defensively in the playoffs if they have Davis and LeBron healthy.

Ya'll seem to have forgotten, the amazing Miami Heat defense that LeBron anchored.
There are probably 3 players all time that could do what he did night in and night out while executing out-worldly offense like he did.

LeBron is not the defender he once was, where he was a legit DPOY material for a few years. But he's older now, with the 3rd most minutes on him in NBA history, like give the dude a break lol he's entitled to it.

I don't care, he has a lot of haters, with people straight up ignoring numbers and stats for the good old eye test. Just can't reason with people like that. I will trust math over a noob's eyes all day long. And the numbers say he's an alright defender. Good enough for me with LeBron at this age. It's called being realistic. The guy barely cares about the regular season anymore, and most stars don't. It's time we as fans adjust to that.

As long as he's on the floor, have the other guys pick up the slack, and he'll give you the best chance for a ring in June. That's literally all that matters here.

I don't see how a 28 year-old Lebron's defense is relevant to his defense now at all. He's turning 35 in the early part of this season with an unprecedented amount of miles on him. Age catches up with everyone even the all-time greats and it shows in his defense for sure.

Yes exactly. That's why I had that last line in there. He's old now, people need to get over it. But that doesn't mean he's a traffic cone out there.

[walk with me]

Lmao all desperate Lebron fans should just be shipped away so they can have their own state to worship Lebron together in...

Most pathetic fans of the sport I’ve ever seen. Can’t wait till Lebron is gone so we don’t have to deal with these idiots

[Arman_tanzarian]

It also doesn't account for the fact the first half the season he wasn't guarding anyone and in the 2nd half he got shut down so his stats are heavily skewed because of Lonzo.

There is one stat that kind of illustrates this if you take a look at his pre and post allstar numbers. BBREF has his DTR pre allstar 108. Post 112.

Hold up, you're telling me that a defender..without a defensive anchor, is going to have a worse defensive rating?

Tell me, what do you think happens to klay's d rating if we take out draymond green.

It wasn't just worse it fell off a cliff once Lebron was forced to guard somebody and since Lonzo isn't walking through that door next year and they really never replaced his defense at PG maybe people should be looking at how Lebron played without him.

Instead of a bunch of meaningless data where Lebron didn't have to guard anyone.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Summary: Together they were playing well, playing pretty good defense until injuries happened. However, Zo needed LeBron way more on defense than LeBron needing Zo. Lakers defense without Zo and LeBron ON was still pretty okay. This is why I said, instead of making stuff up in your head — go look up some evidence to back up your claim.

[spikeslovechild]

Hold up, you're telling me that a defender..without a defensive anchor, is going to have a worse defensive rating?

Tell me, what do you think happens to klay's d rating if we take out draymond green.

It wasn't just worse it fell off a cliff once Lebron was forced to guard somebody and since Lonzo isn't walking through that door next year and they really never replaced his defense at PG maybe people should be looking at how Lebron played without him.

Instead of a bunch of meaningless data where Lebron didn't have to guard anyone.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Summary: Together they were playing well, playing pretty good defense until injuries happened. However, Zo needed LeBron way more on defense than LeBron needing Zo. Lakers defense without Zo and LeBron ON was still pretty okay. This is why I said, instead of making stuff up in your head — go look up some evidence to back up your claim.

[homecourtloss]

Hold up, you're telling me that a defender..without a defensive anchor, is going to have a worse defensive rating?

Tell me, what do you think happens to klay's d rating if we take out draymond green.

It wasn't just worse it fell off a cliff once Lebron was forced to guard somebody and since Lonzo isn't walking through that door next year and they really never replaced his defense at PG maybe people should be looking at how Lebron played without him.

Instead of a bunch of meaningless data where Lebron didn't have to guard anyone.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Summary: Together they were playing well, playing pretty good defense until injuries happened. However, Zo needed LeBron way more on defense than LeBron needing Zo. Lakers defense without Zo and LeBron ON was still pretty okay. This is why I said, instead of making stuff up in your head — go look up some evidence to back up your claim.

Numbers and data and empirical proof is literally here for people to look at and it doesn’t seem to matter at all. It’s truly unbelievable.

[freethedevil]

LeBron is solid or better in pretty much every statistical approach. RAPM, RPM, PIPM, DRAYMOND, BPM...I'm not saying any of these are the holy grail on their own, but they take different approaches and all agree.

It is probably unfair to LeBron that the GOAT discussion seems to hang over every aspect of his career, but I think that's a lot of what's happening now. It erodes his argument for being historically great, or the greatest active player.

Jordan wasn't even a positive defensively in his 15th season, let alone his non-existent 16th one. How does lebron's defence stillvbeing positive in season 16 "erode the greatness" of his career?

[freethedevil]

All this proves is the limitations of those statistics.

People say this but they never explain how the stats are overrating him. It's almost like they don't understand them...

[LakerLegend]

Oh, wait. When looking at all the data available, the exact opposite is true. NBA.com has play type data available again and guess what? It shows that not only is James not a bad defender, but he’s rather a very good one.

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

Additionally, opponents whom James defends shoot 3.8% WORSE when defended by James. https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/

In December, they shot a whopping 9.8% WORSE.
https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=3

—Lakers are 3.1 points per 100 possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense is equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2019

—James’ DRPM is 1.74, top 10% in the NBA. His DRPM is ahead of players such as Smart, Winslow, Butler, Ball, Dipo, Lowry, Kidd-Gilchrist, Tatum and Brown, KD, Simmons, LMA, [REST ARE ALL NEGATIVE DEFENDERS PER DRPM—Like James was last year]: Kawhi, Brogdon, Ingram, SGA

PICK AND ROLL BALL HANDLER (2+ defensive possessions per game, 50+ games played

James is 2nd best out of 141 players, top 6%, who defend 2+ such possessions per game.

https://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*2

HAND OFF DEFENSE (.5+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 5th out of 140 players in defending hand offs, top 10%.

https://stats.nba.com/players/hand-off/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=POSS*GE*.5:GP*GE*5

ISO DEFENSE (1+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 15th of 61 players, top 27% in points per possession allowed (.78)
ahead of Siakam, Draymond, Simmons, Klay, Aminu. For reference, Giannis allows .72 PPP.

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=POSS*GE*1:GP*GE*50

SPOT UP DEFENSE (3+ defensive possession per game, 50+ games played.)

James is 35th of 94 players, top 43% in PPP allowed, ahead of Embiid, Brown, Lowry, Draymond, KD, Danny Green,

https://stats.nba.com/players/spot-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*3

ROLL MAN DEFENSE IN PICK AND ROLL (only .2 possessions per game)


Top 14% in the league

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?sort=PPP&dir=-1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&CF=GP*GE*50:POSS*GE*.

DEFENSE OFF SCREENS (.4+possessions per game)

James is 18th out of 163 players, top 20% in the NBA.

https://stats.nba.com/players/off-screen/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1

POST UP DEFENSE (.5+ possessions per game, 50+ games played)

James is 49th of 176 players, top 30%

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TypeGrouping=defensive&sort=PPP&dir=-1&CF=POSS*GE*.5:GP*GE*5

Is LeBron guarding good offensive players or crappy ones?

[LakerLegend]

It's no secret that LeBron had his lazy days on defense last season. It was unprofessional. You could tell he was just waiting for AD or some other star.

But he still has it in him. He is not slowing down like people think. He will be much more motivated this year, and I think we will see his Miami type defense.

Laughable, who at the age of 35 all of a sudden turns back the clock and plays defense like they were 25? It’s literally never happened.

[spikeslovechild]

It wasn't just worse it fell off a cliff once Lebron was forced to guard somebody and since Lonzo isn't walking through that door next year and they really never replaced his defense at PG maybe people should be looking at how Lebron played without him.

Instead of a bunch of meaningless data where Lebron didn't have to guard anyone.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Summary: Together they were playing well, playing pretty good defense until injuries happened. However, Zo needed LeBron way more on defense than LeBron needing Zo. Lakers defense without Zo and LeBron ON was still pretty okay. This is why I said, instead of making stuff up in your head — go look up some evidence to back up your claim.

Numbers and data and empirical proof is literally here for people to look at and it doesn’t seem to matter at all. It’s truly unbelievable.

Zo did just fine before Lebron on defense his rookie year it's just funny how far Lebron stans manipulate, skew stats, and twist themselves into pretzels defending Lebrons poor defense last season.

Those numbers posted aren't even right. I'd like to give more data but Nbawowry is slow as f today so I am not going to bother.

[jg77]

What's the point of watching basketball if the numbers tell us everything?

Anyone watching the actual games will tell you that LeBron isn't playing defense. He usually walks back on defense as well.

[spikeslovechild]

What's the point of watching basketball if the numbers tell us everything?

Anyone watching the actual games will tell you that LeBron isn't playing defense. He usually walks back on defense as well.

That's true but it would so easy to debunk if nbawowry was working. We all saw the Lakers complete collapse defensively as soon as Lonzo got injured. We saw Kuzma literally embarrassing Lebron into playing defense

I don't know why it should have to be explained with stats but it could be not the cherry picked stats shown by the OP and a couple posts a go.

[RakimAbdulJabar]

Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

These stats are facts when taking into account LeBron in defensive situations. They are also cherry-picked specific situations. They're also an example of how stats can be used to tell lies.

LeBron is a talented defender when he wants to be, I'm not arguing that even a little bit.

What I've bolded shows him in situations where he's already back on defense. What LeBron has done a significant (noticable) percentage of the time is not get back on defense at all. These numbers don't talk about transition defense at all, which is LeBron's achilles heal in terms of effort. Sure he'll get a chase down block in a playoff game here and there. But if it's the regular season, especially the first 2/3 of the season, you can't rely on him to be present defensively, especially in transition.

Additionally, talking the numbers above, when he IS back and set on defense, 20%, 27%, 30%, and 43% aren't as impressive as you may be giving him credit for. LeBron has the mind and body to be much better than 1 out of every 5 guys in the league at defense. League stats take into account bench players, rookies, and fringe starters, and specialists that can't play D very well. I would hope in this league of hundreds that he'd be better that the next 20 (1/20) or next 50 (1/50) or more guys (top 5% or top 2%), if he is going to be thought of as an elite defender. The numbers you presented show that his talent combined with lack of effort skews numbers from what he should be to lesser numbers in the teens, twenties, or worse, percentage wise.

The frustrations with LeBron's D is the lack of effort getting back, where he prefers to walk or talk to a ref. I don't see transition defensive stats anywhere in your post. Very important as on any given night most teams miss over 50% of their shots. Additionally when the team is back on D, he can be just as lazy in defending, and I think the numbers you provided, when taking into account his great potential as a defender, support that.

This is why folks rag on LeBron's "defense" or lack there of. And that is without even discussing the effect it has on team moral and cohesion when one guy chooses not to get back (talking to ref or just walking) or when he doesn't make the switch because he is conceding the play. These are more difficult arguments to make, but just sticking with the numbers you provided there's enough there to see he's not doing all he can defensively. He coasts.

Your post is honestly all talk and no substance. Please give me some measurable data to prove Lebron "does not get back on D"

There is also a difference between not doing all you can defensively and still not being s negative defender.

He is good enough on D to not give 100% and when he does give effort it is very impactful. There are more than these so called "cherry picked stats" that have already been mentioned. So for example, if he gives effort only 70% of the time and impacts the game on D at 90% effeciency. He is better than someone who gives 100% effort and is only 50% efficient.

Eye test is a horrible form of judgement for a number of reasons and is even worse so on Defense. We often notice the bad 10 times before we remember the good.

So there's this website called Youtube, it's really cool you should check it out, you can type key words in the search engine like say for example "Lebron bad defense" and it will give you examples of him not getting back on defense. They're not all Lebrons 'fault' even when he's the one left standing looking around, but it isn't difficult to see the lack of effort just from last season, and you can see it in the finals against the Warriors too as he didn't bother on so many plays in transition D

Watch on YouTube

People repeatedly use that Anthony Bennett clip of him walking around to show lack of effort, is Lebron vs the Grizzlies in this really any better?

Watch on YouTube

There are plenty more but I don't think you can just ignore the eye test, you can't just disregard what is obvious to any knowledgeable fan watching the game, the effort is questionable and the defensive assignments are often to give himself a break so he can give 100% on offense

Watch on YouTube