Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[zoyathedestroya]

Stock up in that guttdamn bunker...

Spoiler:

Tat looks skinny. Needs to add more fruity pebbles and pancakes!

...or hook him up with Giannis's "nutritionist".

[Roddy]

Stock up in that guttdamn bunker...

Spoiler:

Tat looks skinny. Needs to add more fruity pebbles and pancakes!

...or hook him up with Giannis's "nutritionist".

So what "proteins" do you want ?

[sully00]

I believe it was both shot selection and a more consistent, decent shooting form that Smart brought to his game last year. For better or worse, he now has said that he wants to be more aggressive in his shooting next season.

I'm certain it was more the latter that led to his career year shooting, not the former.

From 2014-2017, 48.2% of Smart's FGA were 3s. Last season, 61.0% of his FGA were 3s. Meanwhile he took fewer shots last season from every other distance, including at the rim (only 17.3% from 0-3). And he got to the FT line less than he ever has in his career. His shot selection was different, but unless you get granular and look at pull ups vs catches, or side of the floor or something, you can't tell me it was really much better. He's taking more 3s and more jump shots, and attempting fewer drives and layups.

Meanwhile, his shooting percentage improved from every distance. Best finishing rate at the rim of his career, best percentage on mid range shots of his career, best percentage on 3s of his career. That's the real difference in the numbers, not which shots he took.

Smart took a greater than ever % of his shots from the 3 last year, at 61% (after being in the 40's the three previous seasons). He also had his highest % year from the 3 in shooting, as well as his highest % of 3's being corner 3's. He also shot his lowest or tied-lowest percent of his shots in his career from each of the mid-range distances (3-10, 10-16, 16-<3). And yes, he finished better at the basket. It really was a combination of shooting and shot selection. Oh, and also lower usage, as he was the lowest on that in his career last year as well.

Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

[Ernest]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

[sully00]

To be fair, there were a lot of posters that hated on Smart and anyone defending him for several years like it was their religion that clowned themselves, before trying to claim victory by saying they knew it all along, had he only shot the ball less.

LMAOOOOOO.

Well, he completely changed his shot profile and 3pt shooting percentages this year. So I think 95% of people who had an issue with Smart, it was because he took too many awful shots and also he couldn't shoot from 3. He changed both this year. He took 61% of his shots from three this year (up from 48.3% the year prior) AND improved his 3pt shooting from 30.1% (TERRIBLE, **** ME I WANT TO DIE IT'S SO BAD, OH MY GOD MY EYES ARE BURNING FROM ALL THE TERRIBLE BRICKS) to 36.4% (HMM, THIS IS PRETTY GOOD, KEEP IT UP, MARCUS).

If you predicted that he would both improve his shot selection and go from the worst volume 3pt shooter in NBA history to an above average 3 pt shooter (in one season), congrats. Otherwise, take a nap on the victory lap.

On the day he signed his contract he had taken 1093 3P shots at a 29.3% clip. Then he immediately shot 346 @ 36.4%. He went from bottom 10 all-time to 38th in the NBA (as in, 37 player took more 3s at a higher percentage last season).

LMAOOOOOO.

Yeah, nah.

Smart undeniably made a much stronger contribution to many more wins the previous season, despite playing hurt, and despite carrying a sorry scoring-deficient bench on a very young team that made it to a game away from the Finals despite missing two All-Stars.

The whole idea of his making some major leap as a player this year comes from stat-biased people who whiffed hard on the guy for multiple years in a row simply because they didn't know how to process a player's contribution outside of box scores.

For the ones who hated on him hard, as many did? Well, they don't have to own it, but it will own them whether they like it or not.

That is just as much nonsense in reverse. You can't believe that Marcus Smart was the same player last year as he was the two years before because it flat out isn't true. Yes he contributed to winning but he also contributed to gross offense he was the point guard of it. He also struggled with the pressures of earning that NBA pay day and very logically his mother's health issues. He literally missed like 2 months for punching a picture frame because of his poor decision making and bad shooting. It was like bad decision making squared.

[amory87]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

Celtics fans have always been ridiculously petty towards Ray, and yeah I say that with some biases but it's true. I'm glad Horford's getting better treatment.

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

[zoyathedestroya]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

[canman1971]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/254932/Celtics-Stomped-Their-Feet-About-Tampering-On-Al-Horford

This is such a BS article and one of the biggest problems in our society with reporting, not just sports. Headline says one thing basing it on Windbag, yet, a more respected reporter refutes it, but the D-Bag comment gets the headline. Come on RealGM, be better than this. And the basis of the idiotic article is Windbag saying, "from what I am told"? WTF does that mean? My son, who is 6, today told me we should have a house on the ocean because the scenery is really nice (which I agree). However, I wouldn't use him as "from what I'm told". And the whole "stomping" their feet BS? Pretty confident in saying Ainge, nor anyone in the Celtics organization or the world for that matter stomped their feet. WTF is wrong with people?

Agree with you but the link you shared takes me to amazon.com

I'm such an idiot. That's what happens when you try to do multiple things at once, then go on a rant in between.

[brackdan70]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

Yeah idk. I think for me personally, the money Horford got was more than I would hope the Cs would spend on him given his age and the situation. I don’t know if the Cs would have been willing to match what he got from philly? If they could have maneuvered the cap gymnastics and sign and trade/s to have him and Kemba? Maybe?

To me that’s the difference. And I never had a strong issue with Allen either for his decision

[Ernest]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

[zoyathedestroya]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

You're seriously asking why Kyrie gets more heat than Al? It's less about the person (we don't really know these people) and more about what they did and the circumstances/context around those actions.

[Ernest]

The Ray hate was/is just silly when it’s years later. Players can and should do what they feel is best for them. But at the time Ray left us there was a legit WTF Ray feeling as a Celtics fan. I feel like WTF Horford now. I get that we may not have wanted to pay anyways, but he chose to go. WTF Al, you really think Philly will be a good move?

I’m not even that upset st all. It’s just weird that I seem to be alone in being upset.

[greenroom31]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

What else... what else could be the differences between Kyrie and Al's situations. Hmmmmmmmmm...... let me think.....

Oh yeah, one guy signed here in FA, worked hard and was a quiet leader and example setter for the young guys, always listened to the coach and never said as much as a single negative word about any while he was here.

The other guy made a commercial about wanting to have his number retired, pledged to season ticket holders that he plans to resign here "if you'll have me", and then created divisiveness within the locker room all year long and feeding soundbites to the media. And then he basically announced via instagram videos that he would be signing elsewhere.

Other than that, basically identical situations.

[Ernest]

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

You're seriously asking why Kyrie gets more heat than Al? It's less about the person (we don't really know these people) and more about what they did and the circumstances/context around those actions.

No, I’m comparing Kyrie to Al to say I get why Kyrie gets the blame, because Al is just to likable But so was Ray.

Maybe Kyrie just absorbed all the hate. If Kyrie had never existed and this off-season was just Horford leaving us, I wonder if he’d be getting hated on.

And again I agree with all your point you made in the initial reply. I’m not advocating we all start burning our Horford jerseys we never bought. It just seems surprising to me that an online message board-especially this one- would be so cool with him bailing on us.

[greenroom31]

The Ray hate was/is just silly when it’s years later. Players can and should do what they feel is best for them. But at the time Ray left us there was a legit WTF Ray feeling as a Celtics fan. I feel like WTF Horford now. I get that we may not have wanted to pay anyways, but he chose to go. WTF Al, you really think Philly will be a good move?

I’m not even that upset st all. It’s just weird that I seem to be alone in being upset.

Totally different situations. Ray had won a title with the same group of guys and he decided to leave to go to Miami after we lost to them in 7 games the prior season in the ECF. Also, Ray is a known prima donna/diva.

Horford is still chasing a title and the team/league is going through some major personnel changes. He was a good locker room guy and teammate, he just chose to defect after a sour year in hopes of joining a squad with (in his perception) a better chance at winning a title.

[Ernest]

There are certain similarities but I think the big difference is the team/fans thought there was still a chance to run it back and still become legit challengers the following season with some luck health-wise. I believe we were missing Jeff Green (heart) and AB (shoulder) plus Allen (ankle), Rondo (hand) and Pierce (knee) were struggling with some injuries too.

Last season was a mess for the entire organization. It was more understandable if all our free agents left and looked for a better situation. Philly offered more money than we could've too. And pulling off Kemba + Horford was near impossibility. Horford coming back on his own wouldn't make us contenders imo. Another thing, but this is more my personal view, I don't really view the Sixers that big of a threat than Miami was back in 2012/2013. I could definitely be wrong on that. Let's just see this season.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

What else... what else could be the differences between Kyrie and Al's situations. Hmmmmmmmmm...... let me think.....

Oh yeah, one guy signed here in FA, worked hard and was a quiet leader and example setter for the young guys, always listened to the coach and never said as much as a single negative word about any while he was here.

The other guy made a commercial about wanting to have his number retired, pledged to season ticket holders that he plans to resign here "if you'll have me", and then created divisiveness within the locker room all year long and feeding soundbites to the media. And then he basically announced via instagram videos that he would be signing elsewhere.

Other than that, basically identical situations.

My point has been missed.

[Gant]

Right now it's 4 players: Waters, Tacko, Strus, and Green competing for 3 spots- two 2 ways and one on the regular roster.

2 ways can be easily upgraded or terminated, so any of these guys are technically in the running for roster, 2 way, or gone.

Waters seems a near lock for the roster or 2 way. Strus is 2 way or gone. Green has the steepest climb to earn any spot. Tacko seems to be in the midst of contract bargaining. He and his agent would no doubt like something a bit different than Ainge does.

There's no reason to make all the decisions right away on who lands where, as other things can still happen like injuries or trades.


Lastly, all these guys could make it if someone else was moved out. For example Ojeleye might conceivably not have a path to minutes on this team anymore, though Brad Stevens did say how much he'd improved last year even though he wasn't playing much. It wouldn't be hard to trade Semi.

[sam_I_am]

It’s unknown if Al would have accepted equal money from Boston or whether they even offered it prior to Kemba signing. I think he went to Philly to be a PF. I think his best value is as a stretch center and in Philly he likely plays most of time with Embiid. His secondary value is as playmaker but with the pace Simmons plays at I don’t him getting nearly as much opportunity. As a pure stretch PF is he better than Saric, Ilyasova or Harris? Defensively he is a beast and his versatility is going to make Philly hard to score on. Milwaukee in particular is going to have serious problems with Sixers. But can Embiid/Simmons/Horford have same success defending a team like Clippers? I’m not sure. I think our weakness against Embiid will probably offset advantage of small ball in a series but I can see Brad being able to exploit the weird fit of Sixers tall 3 with our versatile wings and Kemba.

[greenroom31]

Spoiler:

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

What else... what else could be the differences between Kyrie and Al's situations. Hmmmmmmmmm...... let me think.....

Oh yeah, one guy signed here in FA, worked hard and was a quiet leader and example setter for the young guys, always listened to the coach and never said as much as a single negative word about any while he was here.

The other guy made a commercial about wanting to have his number retired, pledged to season ticket holders that he plans to resign here "if you'll have me", and then created divisiveness within the locker room all year long and feeding soundbites to the media. And then he basically announced via instagram videos that he would be signing elsewhere.

Other than that, basically identical situations.

My point has been missed.

"Wrong" is more accurate than "missed", but sure.

[Ernest]

Spoiler:

What else... what else could be the differences between Kyrie and Al's situations. Hmmmmmmmmm...... let me think.....

Oh yeah, one guy signed here in FA, worked hard and was a quiet leader and example setter for the young guys, always listened to the coach and never said as much as a single negative word about any while he was here.

The other guy made a commercial about wanting to have his number retired, pledged to season ticket holders that he plans to resign here "if you'll have me", and then created divisiveness within the locker room all year long and feeding soundbites to the media. And then he basically announced via instagram videos that he would be signing elsewhere.

Other than that, basically identical situations.

My point has been missed.

Well... that's just like, your opinion, man.


"Wrong" is more accurate than "missed", but sure.