Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[MagicBagley18]

Stock up in that guttdamn bunker...

JT delivered kemba now he’s delivering Beal??

[zoyathedestroya]

Yeah, I agree with all that. It’s just hard to figure why some guys get hated on and others don’t. You could ask why Kyrie is hated here but Al isn’t. A good answer would seem to be Horford is just more likable. But then again Ray Is a likable guy

You're seriously asking why Kyrie gets more heat than Al? It's less about the person (we don't really know these people) and more about what they did and the circumstances/context around those actions.

No, I’m comparing Kyrie to Al to say I get why Kyrie gets the blame, because Al is just to likable But so was Ray.

Maybe Kyrie just absorbed all the hate. If Kyrie had never existed and this off-season was just Horford leaving us, I wonder if he’d be getting hated on.

And again I agree with all your point you made in the initial reply. I’m not advocating we all start burning our Horford jerseys we never bought. It just seems surprising to me that an online message board-especially this one- would be so cool with him bailing on us.

I already explained my thoughts on Al. As for what the other members think, I can only refer you to the appreciation thread. Maybe you could give it a bump and open up this issue there. I'm really not sure what else to tell you. I've had nothing but a positive fan experience when it came to Horford. As for Ray, even KG and co. carried a bit of bitterness against him over the years. Imagine that. So it wouldn't surprise me if fans did as well.

[Darth Celtic]

Stock up in that guttdamn bunker...

Spoiler:

Tat looks skinny. Needs to add more fruity pebbles and pancakes!

...or hook him up with Giannis's "nutritionist".

Lift some weights bro

Been saying this all offseason, and i'm not sure he is.

[Darth Celtic]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

Ray took less money to go to the team we just lost to in a 7 game series instead of coming back and trying to beat them.

Horford took more money to go to a team we've owned daddy style for a decade.

Nobody is really mad at the sixers locking themselves in to one of the worst contracts out there for a guy clearly on the decline.

I mean, at 15-20m for 3 years we could still use Al. for 109m over 4 years, 91m guaranteed... Have fun in Philly AL!

[24istheLAW]

I believe it was both shot selection and a more consistent, decent shooting form that Smart brought to his game last year. For better or worse, he now has said that he wants to be more aggressive in his shooting next season.

I'm certain it was more the latter that led to his career year shooting, not the former.

From 2014-2017, 48.2% of Smart's FGA were 3s. Last season, 61.0% of his FGA were 3s. Meanwhile he took fewer shots last season from every other distance, including at the rim (only 17.3% from 0-3). And he got to the FT line less than he ever has in his career. His shot selection was different, but unless you get granular and look at pull ups vs catches, or side of the floor or something, you can't tell me it was really much better. He's taking more 3s and more jump shots, and attempting fewer drives and layups.

Meanwhile, his shooting percentage improved from every distance. Best finishing rate at the rim of his career, best percentage on mid range shots of his career, best percentage on 3s of his career. That's the real difference in the numbers, not which shots he took.

Smart took a greater than ever % of his shots from the 3 last year, at 61% (after being in the 40's the three previous seasons). He also had his highest % year from the 3 in shooting, as well as his highest % of 3's being corner 3's. He also shot his lowest or tied-lowest percent of his shots in his career from each of the mid-range distances (3-10, 10-16, 16-<3). And yes, he finished better at the basket. It really was a combination of shooting and shot selection. Oh, and also lower usage, as he was the lowest on that in his career last year as well.

We're sort of on the same page here.

I don't see that change in FGA distribution by distance as improved shot selection necessarily, just different, because he's taking fewer attempts at the rim and getting to the line less.

Smart's 567 FGA in 2018 break down to the following by distance (going out): 98, 65, 30, 28, 346. League average shooting percentages by distance in 2018: .658 from 0-3, .400 from 3-10, .413 from 10-16, .401 from 16 to the 3, .355 from 3, .766 at the FT line. The expected TS% (we'll name it xTS%) based on league averages for Smart's shot selection last year would be .526. The xTS% for his career shot distribution would be .554.

I don't mean to exactly measure this, I just made up the idea of xTS% to illustrate the point. And I do think you're right that he's taking BETTER 3s. But the abandonment of attacking the basket isn't good shot selection. He's doubled down on taking jumpers.

[MagicBagley18]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The main difference to me is that the Celtics chose not pay him what philly did- they couldn’t. He chose more money and RIGHT now a better team. The Celtics offered ray more money and he still left for a team in direct competition with us at the highest levels and Lebron.

[GoCeltics123]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The main difference to me is that the Celtics chose not pay him what philly did- they couldn’t. He chose more money and RIGHT now a better team. The Celtics offered ray more money and he still left for a team in direct competition with us at the highest levels and Lebron.

Yeah I'm not really mad at Al for leaving, it just sucks it was Philly that overpaid him.

Ray left for LeBron and less money, so f*** him.

[MagicBagley18]

LOL Some on Wiz board think they are getting Ben Simmons for Beal and that Simmons is a center and that if he turns down the extension they can trade him next summer when he’s a rental and still get very close to the same deal as they would with 2 years on his contract.

[Bill Lumbergh]

The Ray hate was/is just silly when it’s years later. Players can and should do what they feel is best for them. But at the time Ray left us there was a legit WTF Ray feeling as a Celtics fan. I feel like WTF Horford now. I get that we may not have wanted to pay anyways, but he chose to go. WTF Al, you really think Philly will be a good move?

I’m not even that upset st all. It’s just weird that I seem to be alone in being upset.

I think Al got considerably more money from Philly than we would have paid him, and, if memory serves, Ray took less money to go to Miami than we offered him. Plus, we had a deep and abiding hatred of Miami and Lebron, whereas, I definitely dislike Philly, but not with the intensity that I disliked Miami (although that could change).

It just felt like more of a betrayal with Ray, and not only the fans, but obviously his teammates felt the same about it. I wish Al had not gone to Philly, but these guys have a limited amount of time to earn bigly. Who among us would really turn down an extra 20M (if that's what it was)? Not me.

[FeedReed]

the reason the ray hate makes no sense is because the c’s continually tried to trade him beforehand. honestly makes more sense to hate on horford than ray.

[ZeroTolerance]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

The main difference to me is that the Celtics chose not pay him what philly did- they couldn’t. He chose more money and RIGHT now a better team. The Celtics offered ray more money and he still left for a team in direct competition with us at the highest levels and Lebron.

Yeah I'm not really mad at Al for leaving, it just sucks it was Philly that overpaid him.

Ray left for LeBron and less money, so f*** him.

I know the media and all like to keep things going.... But I could do without all the scuttlebutt and blame being passed around... It's all over with now....Who cares and why should we even be concerned about a player's motive for leaving beyond that it was in their own best interest?

I would rather blame free agency itself in broader terms for creating these dramatic circumstances to begin with...

It's the process that stinks, not the individuals themselves....I mean who dosen't want to better themselves if given the chance?

At any rate, it's all over with and a new season awaits us all....So why not just sit back and enjoy it?

[brackdan70]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

Ray took less money to go to the team we just lost to in a 7 game series instead of coming back and trying to beat them.

Horford took more money to go to a team we've owned daddy style for a decade.

Nobody is really mad at the sixers locking themselves in to one of the worst contracts out there for a guy clearly on the decline.

I mean, at 15-20m for 3 years we could still use Al. for 109m over 4 years, 91m guaranteed... Have fun in Philly AL!

I believe 97 million is guaranteed!!!!
With the first 3 years completely guaranteed

I love Al, but this could really turn into a bad contract. He will be 33, 34, 35 yo for the those guaranteed years. Still has 14 million guaranteed the year he is 36 yo.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Just an announcement with regards to all of the Kyrie threads:

DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT ON THE GB.

Let other teams' fans do all the Kyrie slander on our behalf, and let the Nets fans do all of the caping they want. The latter is just leaving us a juicy, long trail of receipts for us to throw at them in a few months. Save your vitriol for the regular season when we stomp the Nets out.

[Disinformation]

I'm getting hungry for lunch. I hope Tac(k)os are on the menu today.

[scootch]

Just an announcement with regards to all of the Kyrie threads:

DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT ON THE GB.

Let other teams' fans do all the Kyrie slander on our behalf, and let the Nets fans do all of the caping they want. The latter is just leaving us a juicy, long trail of receipts for us to throw at them in a few months. Save your vitriol for the regular season when we stomp the Nets out.

Good god, it's going to be glorious when we throttle them during the season.

[Taget]

Right now it's 4 players: Waters, Tacko, Strus, and Green competing for 3 spots- two 2 ways and one on the regular roster.

2 ways can be easily upgraded or terminated, so any of these guys are technically in the running for roster, 2 way, or gone.

Waters seems a near lock for the roster or 2 way. Strus is 2 way or gone. Green has the steepest climb to earn any spot. Tacko seems to be in the midst of contract bargaining. He and his agent would no doubt like something a bit different than Ainge does.

There's no reason to make all the decisions right away on who lands where, as other things can still happen like injuries or trades.


Lastly, all these guys could make it if someone else was moved out. For example Ojeleye might conceivably not have a path to minutes on this team anymore, though Brad Stevens did say how much he'd improved last year even though he wasn't playing much. It wouldn't be hard to trade Semi.

Any player with only a year left on their contract such as Wanamaker might find themselves simply waived if they get outperformed at training camp.

[djFan71]

I'm certain it was more the latter that led to his career year shooting, not the former.

From 2014-2017, 48.2% of Smart's FGA were 3s. Last season, 61.0% of his FGA were 3s. Meanwhile he took fewer shots last season from every other distance, including at the rim (only 17.3% from 0-3). And he got to the FT line less than he ever has in his career. His shot selection was different, but unless you get granular and look at pull ups vs catches, or side of the floor or something, you can't tell me it was really much better. He's taking more 3s and more jump shots, and attempting fewer drives and layups.

Meanwhile, his shooting percentage improved from every distance. Best finishing rate at the rim of his career, best percentage on mid range shots of his career, best percentage on 3s of his career. That's the real difference in the numbers, not which shots he took.

Smart took a greater than ever % of his shots from the 3 last year, at 61% (after being in the 40's the three previous seasons). He also had his highest % year from the 3 in shooting, as well as his highest % of 3's being corner 3's. He also shot his lowest or tied-lowest percent of his shots in his career from each of the mid-range distances (3-10, 10-16, 16-<3). And yes, he finished better at the basket. It really was a combination of shooting and shot selection. Oh, and also lower usage, as he was the lowest on that in his career last year as well.

Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.

[cloverleaf]

I'm certain it was more the latter that led to his career year shooting, not the former.

From 2014-2017, 48.2% of Smart's FGA were 3s. Last season, 61.0% of his FGA were 3s. Meanwhile he took fewer shots last season from every other distance, including at the rim (only 17.3% from 0-3). And he got to the FT line less than he ever has in his career. His shot selection was different, but unless you get granular and look at pull ups vs catches, or side of the floor or something, you can't tell me it was really much better. He's taking more 3s and more jump shots, and attempting fewer drives and layups.

Meanwhile, his shooting percentage improved from every distance. Best finishing rate at the rim of his career, best percentage on mid range shots of his career, best percentage on 3s of his career. That's the real difference in the numbers, not which shots he took.

Smart took a greater than ever % of his shots from the 3 last year, at 61% (after being in the 40's the three previous seasons). He also had his highest % year from the 3 in shooting, as well as his highest % of 3's being corner 3's. He also shot his lowest or tied-lowest percent of his shots in his career from each of the mid-range distances (3-10, 10-16, 16-<3). And yes, he finished better at the basket. It really was a combination of shooting and shot selection. Oh, and also lower usage, as he was the lowest on that in his career last year as well.

We're sort of on the same page here.

I don't see that change in FGA distribution by distance as improved shot selection necessarily, just different, because he's taking fewer attempts at the rim and getting to the line less.

Smart's 567 FGA in 2018 break down to the following by distance (going out): 98, 65, 30, 28, 346. League average shooting percentages by distance in 2018: .658 from 0-3, .400 from 3-10, .413 from 10-16, .401 from 16 to the 3, .355 from 3, .766 at the FT line. The expected TS% (we'll name it xTS%) based on league averages for Smart's shot selection last year would be .526. The xTS% for his career shot distribution would be .554.

I don't mean to exactly measure this, I just made up the idea of xTS% to illustrate the point. And I do think you're right that he's taking BETTER 3s. But the abandonment of attacking the basket isn't good shot selection. He's doubled down on taking jumpers.

It seems to me as if he used to sort of throw himself at the basket, looking for the call more than the direct score--and that changed last year. Also, I think he stopped with the most embarrassing of his flops, but that shift may have cut into his calls some too. His % of shots from 0-3 barely nudged last year, dropping from 17.7% to 17.3% of his shots, but he got his percentage there was up from 59.3% to 69.4%. So that was good. Still, I agree good next moves for him would be getting to the rim more and shooting more FTs. My guess is that he's aware of that and thinking that way himself this offseason.

[Big Joke Line]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

Celtics fans have always been ridiculously petty towards Ray, and yeah I say that with some biases but it's true. I'm glad Horford's getting better treatment.

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Johnny? Johnny Damon? I didn’t know you posted here.

[Captain_Caveman]

That's definitely not what is happening here. I'm a big Marcus here guy since forever ago. What I am saying here is that (a) Marcus been doing it for years now, (b) that a bunch of stat-biased people here hated on him and his supporters super, super hard for multiple seasons, (c) the truth came out in the wash on that, (d) those same folks are trying to not only duck that L they clearly earned by pointing to scoring efficiency stats that are insignificant relative to his scoring usage, and that (e) despite being asked to do too much the season before last due to us missing two All-Stars, he actually had a significantly bigger contribution to a a team that was significantly more successful.

Tell me what part of that you are confused about, and I will be happy to educate you.

The part where his contribution was significantly bigger. What did he do two seasons ago that he didn't do (as much of) last season, to an extent that made him a significantly greater contributor despite inferior scoring efficiency and inferior health?

Win more games by sheer force of will.