Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[djFan71]

I just think that would have gone really badly. This team needs a legit #1 option right now Smart just got to the point of not hurting you on offense by taking a step back. If Hayward was a full go that is one thing but too many question marks for that approach. Billups turned the corner as Brandon's backup and then was paired with Rip Hamilton.

I think Smart certainly can be a starter in the league and maybe a PG in the right line up but I think he will always need a real stud next to him for the offense to flow.

Chauncey's first step and jumper were always better than Smart's. He could lull you to sleep and then go right by you. Smart doesn't have the same gravity on the perimeter.

I think he's more like Jeremy Lin offensively as a primary point of attack - a big guard who can get you on his hip and ride you into the paint. Problem is Marcus doesn't have great touch for the kind of running contested below-the-rim finishes that style requires.

You're right that Marcus will never be all that much as a scorer, although we can hope that his accuracy on catch-and-shoot or even wide-open pull-up shots keeps going up. I see less of a ceiling, however, on his passing, which is part of why I want him to be our PG every minute Kemba isn't on the floor and some of the minutes when Kemba is.

I agree it would have been ugly, esp to start, but to me the point was to force that burden on Jays & Hay and make them develop. I don't think you ever need Smart to be a great scorer/creator. More just be the caretaker PG. If you're going 3 wings and a center, a good defensive point guard with some vision, who can run some p-n-r with the center, hit open shots is all you really need. By playing 3 wings, you're (hopefully) saying these guys are good enough offensively to overcome playing only 1 big defensively. So, in theory you shouldn't need an elite scoring PG as well.

If you went Smart as starter, draft a NAW type with secondary creation skills, sign a Cory Joseph type, etc. You get pieces in place to support the 3 wings, but leave the heavy lifting to them. And have cap space/money left to do other things. But, obviously that ship has sailed.

[Ernest]

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

Trading a marquee FA signing halfway into his first season is going ensure that no premier FAs ever sign with us again. You were rightfully criticized on the general board for even suggesting such a thing.

It was out board. And no. Teams can thin about trading a player at any time. I don't buy this argument that moves stop future free agent signings. are there any real examples of this? Sure it seems like perfectly good logic. But, really? Who? What team is no one signing to? Maybe there are a few. Just think players want mony and fame and the chance to make more of both in the future. If they cared about the past we'd have folks lining up to play for us because of the legacy. Every new guy talks about it, but no one comes here for it.

[Slartibartfast]

I just think that would have gone really badly. This team needs a legit #1 option right now Smart just got to the point of not hurting you on offense by taking a step back. If Hayward was a full go that is one thing but too many question marks for that approach. Billups turned the corner as Brandon's backup and then was paired with Rip Hamilton.

I think Smart certainly can be a starter in the league and maybe a PG in the right line up but I think he will always need a real stud next to him for the offense to flow.

Chauncey's first step and jumper were always better than Smart's. He could lull you to sleep and then go right by you. Smart doesn't have the same gravity on the perimeter.

I think he's more like Jeremy Lin offensively as a primary point of attack - a big guard who can get you on his hip and ride you into the paint. Problem is Marcus doesn't have great touch for the kind of running contested below-the-rim finishes that style requires.

You're right that Marcus will never be all that much as a scorer, although we can hope that his accuracy on catch-and-shoot or even wide-open pull-up shots keeps going up. I see less of a ceiling, however, on his passing, which is part of why I want him to be our PG every minute Kemba isn't on the floor and some of the minutes when Kemba is.

The ceiling on his passing is the lack of scoring gravity he creates as an on-ball scorer or driver. It's the combination of sketchy J and lack of speed/scoring ability off the bounce that limits Marcus to more of a set-up/secondary playmaker role.

I think he could work extremely well at PG next to a pair like George and Leonard or even Beal and Hayward but he's always going to need creators next to him to play to his best offensively.

[Ernest]

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

Man, if ainge wanted assets he could have taken on bad contracts for draft picks with the cap space. No disrespect but use your head.

But then we'd suck. And our chances of getting good free agents next year would be much lower. How about you use your head. If we are going to be rude. Think about it- once you get to be a good team, you really need to stay a good team. We had a quick bounce back after the big 3, but that's not the norm.

Let's not be rude, though. I really like your posts on here.

[Captain_Caveman]

Why? A stat-based approach would tell you that Marcus Smart has always been a good, positive player and that this last year he improved significantly as a result of no longer being the least efficient scorer in the NBA. But yeah, stats are bad. Remove the scoreboard and just tell me who won at the end of the game.

Again, stats are a poor frame of reference for judging Smart's worth to the team.

More to your point, the stats you are referring to are largely insignificant wrt to a guy who only shot 7 times a game. If you understand stats, you understand that part, right? An extra bucket every 5 games isn't really a meaningful place to argue from.

Why? An extra make every 5 games is huge. That's like 1-2 extra wins a season or something. But that's beside the point. What is specific about Marcus Smart that 'stats are a poor frame of reference for judging [his] worth'? He both took fewer bad shots and improved on all of his shots. How is this not significant in telling his worth? He used to take 9.5 shots a game and they were all bad. Suddenly he takes 7 per game and they are all good. Without stats there is absolutely no way you could tell a 30 pct 3pt shooter from a 36 pct free throw shooter. But thankfully someone logs them for us and we can use it to determine if a player has improved or whatever the case is.

You don't need to defend stats. I'm just saying that you are overelying on them in your assessment of Smart, while not putting them in the proper context (having to lead a weak bench on an undermanned, scoring-deficient team vs better scoring opportunities as a forgotten 4th/5th option as a starter).

[eris]

I don't get the ire, though. If Horford re-signs, do the Celtics have the ability to acquire Walker? Does Kanter come to Boston if Horford is here? Perhaps there exists some scenario where they retain Horford and then they get a guard with the same salary exception they acquired Kanter with. So like the options are Horford+guard or Kemba+Kanter. Which is better? I'm thinking the latter. Also, who cares what players do with their free agency? Maybe he just wanted to play on a team he thought had a better shot at a championship, maybe he flipped a coin, maybe he liked the idea of playing next to Embiid as opposed to Aron Baynes, maybe his wife likes Philly more than Boston. Philly could have easily said, sign this now or the offer is pulled, we have other players we have to go pursue if you turn it down.

Also I really wouldn't have wanted the Celtics to match that 3+1/100 deal anyway, would you? The downside seems significant, especially if Hayward doesn't return to form and you're paying 70 million to Horford+Hayward in 2021 and also now you have Jaylen Brown+Jayson Tatum on, or seeking, max RFA tenders. A similar downside exists with Walker, sure, but he's proven to be much healthier than Horford and also four years younger.

Oh, I don't have any special animosity toward Horford. I will think about him like I do all non-Celtics players. That's not kindly.

You are correct, though, getting Kemba Walker would have been almost impossible if Al had resigned in Boston. There was a S&T possibility, but I never thought Irving/Nets would have helped the C's pull that off. I'm disappointed Horford isn't back, not angry about it. <shrug>

Personally, I think Kemba + Kanter is going to be an improvement on offense and not much of a step back defensively, so I'm happy with what Danny was able to do. I'm optimistic that the Celtics are going to surprise a lot of experts this year. As a normal pessimist that's a strange situation for me to be in, too.

Oh, and as for Hayward, I am completely convinced that he'll be 100% back to his Utah level of play this year. Why am I being so optimistic? That's not normal...

[Ernest]

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

I don't get the ire, though. If Horford re-signs, do the Celtics have the ability to acquire Walker? Does Kanter come to Boston if Horford is here? Perhaps there exists some scenario where they retain Horford and then they get a guard with the same salary exception they acquired Kanter with. So like the options are Horford+guard or Kemba+Kanter. Which is better? I'm thinking the latter. Also, who cares what players do with their free agency? Maybe he just wanted to play on a team he thought had a better shot at a championship, maybe he flipped a coin, maybe he liked the idea of playing next to Embiid as opposed to Aron Baynes, maybe his wife likes Philly more than Boston. Philly could have easily said, sign this now or the offer is pulled, we have other players we have to go pursue if you turn it down.

Also I really wouldn't have wanted the Celtics to match that 3+1/100 deal anyway, would you? The downside seems significant, especially if Hayward doesn't return to form and you're paying 70 million to Horford+Hayward in 2021 and also now you have Jaylen Brown+Jayson Tatum on, or seeking, max RFA tenders. A similar downside exists with Walker, sure, but he's proven to be much healthier than Horford and also four years younger.

I don't think that part was directed at me, but I'll take a shot at it. There is no ire. I guess I'm glad he is gone for the money he got. It just sucks that he broke up with us. That's not a good look. I do have some ire for Philly because of how thy tanked so long. F them. F them up the A hole! I hope Horford has an allstar year an the rest of the team gets hurt and the city burns to the ground!

[FlatearthZorro]

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

I don't get the ire, though. If Horford re-signs, do the Celtics have the ability to acquire Walker? Does Kanter come to Boston if Horford is here? Perhaps there exists some scenario where they retain Horford and then they get a guard with the same salary exception they acquired Kanter with. So like the options are Horford+guard or Kemba+Kanter. Which is better? I'm thinking the latter. Also, who cares what players do with their free agency? Maybe he just wanted to play on a team he thought had a better shot at a championship, maybe he flipped a coin, maybe he liked the idea of playing next to Embiid as opposed to Aron Baynes, maybe his wife likes Philly more than Boston. Philly could have easily said, sign this now or the offer is pulled, we have other players we have to go pursue if you turn it down.

Also I really wouldn't have wanted the Celtics to match that 3+1/100 deal anyway, would you? The downside seems significant, especially if Hayward doesn't return to form and you're paying 70 million to Horford+Hayward in 2021 and also now you have Jaylen Brown+Jayson Tatum on, or seeking, max RFA tenders. A similar downside exists with Walker, sure, but he's proven to be much healthier than Horford and also four years younger.

I don't think that part was directed at me, but I'll take a shot at it. There is no ire. I guess I'm glad he is gone for the money he got. It just sucks that he broke up with us. That's not a good look. I do have some ire for Philly because of how thy tanked so long. F them. F them up the A hole! I hope Horford has an allstar year an the rest of the team gets hurt and the city burns to the ground!

Same(not the injuries but the contract siatuation) . Loved Horfie. Happy for him, think he went for the money, and the Cs werent offering him that, Cs were rumored to have offered him 3/80. Im glad they didnt go like 4/115, Id rather go for Vuc at 4/105 instead. Vuc was pretty similar last season and much younger. It is what is.

[Ernest]

Oh, this has all gotten quite boring. Can we change the subject. Change it to the ShangHai Sharks? I have some funny stuff people need to see. Look up Donnie Does on youtube. I was there when this happened and it is just amazing. I'll go find the links. I can post youtube on here right? You guys got to see this if you need a laugh. The basic idea is a Boston guy is stranded in China doing odd jobs an gets into a feud with Yao Ming and the Shanghai Sharks gettng banned from the games. Its reaity TV at its best on youtube. Give me 10 mins to find this.

[Fencer reregistered]

The ceiling on his passing is the lack of scoring gravity he creates as an on-ball scorer or driver.

I don't think Rondo, who never could shoot well, stopped being a super-skilled passer when stopped attacking the hoop. It stopped mattering as much, which I think is your main point, but that's not exactly the same thing.

Even Marcus' excellent offensive plays are fairly slow, and that makes him less valuable on offense than if he could do the same things more quickly, because it allows the opposing defense better options for spacing and reaction. But while he'll never be as good an offensive player as prime Dennis Johnson, I think he has a ceiling at both ends of the court comparable to Celtics Dennis Johnson, and that guy was a low-end all-star.

[Ernest]

Watch on YouTube

First one:

[Tiny ball]

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Why would anyone with half a brain want to return to Brad Steveen's **** show? I bet if you were buddies with Tatum or Jaylen Brown they would be telling you they want off the Celtics. How would any normal person want to show up at work that day knowing their boss wants them gone? That is Danny. I would also want to go even to Utah and be wanted than work for Danny. I could not wait to get away from bad Brad and Smart also. The only reason Tatum and Brown stay with Brad and Danny running the Celtics is money and they are stuck here. Hopefully some of these new players make playing ball again fun.

Reddit sucks, but this is the first time on here that I wish we could down vote. Such negativity. End of the day- we have a good team. It will be a fun year. Good owners. good management. Calm the duck down!

Larry Bird said no players listens to coaches after was it third season.. I will side with Larry Bird. Vote down Bird and tell me why you think you know more about NBA basketball than Larry Bird?

[Slartibartfast]

The ceiling on his passing is the lack of scoring gravity he creates as an on-ball scorer or driver.

I don't think Rondo, who never could shoot well, stopped being a super-skilled passer when stopped attacking the hoop. It stopped mattering as much, which I think is your main point, but that's not exactly the same thing.

Even Marcus' excellent offensive plays are fairly slow, and that makes him less valuable on offense than if he could do the same things more quickly, because it allows the opposing defense better options for spacing and reaction. But while he'll never be as good an offensive player as prime Dennis Johnson, I think he has a ceiling at both ends of the court comparable to Celtics Dennis Johnson, and that guy was a low-end all-star.

Rondo still depends on the threat of his dribble drive for a good number of his passes.

DJ's a good comp for Smart.

[Ernest]

Watch on YouTube

Life time ban in place.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't think it was shabby at all. He's 33 years old, looking for his last big contract. He got the big offer and took it. The Sixers felt that they were one lucky bounce away from the NBA finals. They're in win now mode and were willing to overpay. Ainge did what Belichick does: he had a value for the player and would not be railroaded into paying more. Also, Horford's cap hold would have meant no Kemba.

[Tiny ball]

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

I don't get the ire, though. If Horford re-signs, do the Celtics have the ability to acquire Walker? Does Kanter come to Boston if Horford is here? Perhaps there exists some scenario where they retain Horford and then they get a guard with the same salary exception they acquired Kanter with. So like the options are Horford+guard or Kemba+Kanter. Which is better? I'm thinking the latter. Also, who cares what players do with their free agency? Maybe he just wanted to play on a team he thought had a better shot at a championship, maybe he flipped a coin, maybe he liked the idea of playing next to Embiid as opposed to Aron Baynes, maybe his wife likes Philly more than Boston. Philly could have easily said, sign this now or the offer is pulled, we have other players we have to go pursue if you turn it down.

Also I really wouldn't have wanted the Celtics to match that 3+1/100 deal anyway, would you? The downside seems significant, especially if Hayward doesn't return to form and you're paying 70 million to Horford+Hayward in 2021 and also now you have Jaylen Brown+Jayson Tatum on, or seeking, max RFA tenders. A similar downside exists with Walker, sure, but he's proven to be much healthier than Horford and also four years younger.

I don't think that part was directed at me, but I'll take a shot at it. There is no ire. I guess I'm glad he is gone for the money he got. It just sucks that he broke up with us. That's not a good look. I do have some ire for Philly because of how thy tanked so long. F them. F them up the A hole! I hope Horford has an allstar year an the rest of the team gets hurt and the city burns to the ground!

I like your attitude.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Why would anyone with half a brain want to return to Brad Steveen's **** show? I bet if you were buddies with Tatum or Jaylen Brown they would be telling you they want off the Celtics. How would any normal person want to show up at work that day knowing their boss wants them gone? That is Danny. I would also want to go even to Utah and be wanted than work for Danny. I could not wait to get away from bad Brad and Smart also. The only reason Tatum and Brown stay with Brad and Danny running the Celtics is money and they are stuck here. Hopefully some of these new players make playing ball again fun.

Reddit sucks, but this is the first time on here that I wish we could down vote. Such negativity. End of the day- we have a good team. It will be a fun year. Good owners. good management. Calm the duck down!

Larry Bird said no players listens to coaches after was it third season.. I will side with Larry Bird. Vote down Bird and tell me why you think you know more about NBA basketball than Larry Bird?

Red Auerbach disagrees. So does Greg Popovich. Those coaches did fine.

[eris]

I don't think that part was directed at me, but I'll take a shot at it. There is no ire. I guess I'm glad he is gone for the money he got. It just sucks that he broke up with us. That's not a good look. I do have some ire for Philly because of how thy tanked so long. F them. F them up the A hole! I hope Horford has an allstar year an the rest of the team gets hurt and the city burns to the ground!

LOL!!!

Yeah, that says it really, really, well!

"He left us. I'm disappointed. What! He left us for that tart Philly? I'm incensed!"

No, I don't hope Al has an allstar year. I'm petty enough to hope he doesn't fit in in Philly, at all, and has a frustrating time of it there.

I really don't want all the Philly players to get hurt, nor do I want that city to burn to the ground. I just want them to lose to the C's every time we play them. Now if you had been talking about LA and the Lakers....

[zoyathedestroya]

Big man bonding time.

Read on Twitter

[Tiny ball]

The ceiling on his passing is the lack of scoring gravity he creates as an on-ball scorer or driver.

I don't think Rondo, who never could shoot well, stopped being a super-skilled passer when stopped attacking the hoop. It stopped mattering as much, which I think is your main point, but that's not exactly the same thing.

Even Marcus' excellent offensive plays are fairly slow, and that makes him less valuable on offense than if he could do the same things more quickly, because it allows the opposing defense better options for spacing and reaction. But while he'll never be as good an offensive player as prime Dennis Johnson, I think he has a ceiling at both ends of the court comparable to Celtics Dennis Johnson, and that guy was a low-end all-star.

imho Smart will never be able to shine DJs shoes. I realize Smart was crippled my Danny's bad management and he could breakout? You can't easily teach having a brain so even if Smart breaks out and has few good years he still can't shine DJs shoes.