Peaks project update: #8

[LA Bird]

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86

Time limit to get your vote in: 60 hours. Please submit your votes by 7:30 pm July 25 Eastern Time

The rules

Reasoning/statistical support is required for votes to be counted. A simple list of names will not be counted.

THE VOTING SYSTEM:

Everyone gives their 1st-ballot choice, 2nd-ballot choice, and 3rd-ballot choice. I'll award 4,5 pts for a 1st ballot, 3 for a 2nd ballot, and 2 for a 3rd. Highest point-total wins the spot (24-hour run-off will then only be done in the unlikely event of a tie).

Players don't get credit for all the votes they receive in a round, we just count the votes (and the points) for the designated year. At the end of the 48 hours (not sure about that) the season that has most points wins. Other voted seasons of the winning player will get a mention.

So, you can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player, with a mention of the other seasons of the winning player who received votes.

Thank you for your participation!

Spoiler:

[quote="freethedevil"]
[quote="euroleague"]
[quote="eminence"]
[quote="Colbinii"]
[quote="70sFan"]
[quote="trex_8063"]
[quote="E-Balla"]
[quote="penbeast0"]
[quote="Ambrose"]
[quote="Lou Fan"]
[quote="Amares"]
[quote="Clyde Frazier"]
[quote="yoyoboy"]
[quote="DrSpaceman"]
[quote="dontcalltimeout"]
[quote="DatAsh"]
[quote="PCProductions"]
[quote="LA Bird"]
[quote="Gregoire"]
[quote="_Game7_"]
[quote="Point-Forward"]
[quote="Jaivl"]
[quote="drza"]
[quote="pandrade83"]
[quote="Timmyyy"]
[quote="HHera187"]
[quote="Bel"]
[quote="Dr Positivity"]
[quote="Vladimir777"]
[quote="Samurai"]
[quote="ardee"]
[quote="Owly"]
[quote="Sublime187"]
[quote="Homer38"]
[quote="Joey Wheeler"]
[quote="JoeMalburg"]
[quote="Blackmill"]
[quote="Bel"]
[quote="Lou Fan"]
[quote="cecilthesheep"]

[Odinn21]

Major changes so far, compared to the previous project.

Shaq lost 2 places against LeBron and Wilt.
Hakeem was 6th and ahead of Duncan, yet to make the list.
Bird was 11th and is 7th this time.

Major candidates for 8th spot; Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin Garnett. Aside from Hakeem getting down in the list, KG could keep his place, and 8th spot would be an upgrade for the other 2.

Personally, I like outcome of this currently running project better because KG was ahead Russell and Bird (which is nonsense to me) and Bird was outside of top 10, behind of Magic (another thing I strongly disagree).

[pandrade83]

I'm maintaining my votes from the last thread except I need to replace Bird & Magic is the obvious choice. This Laker squad was deep & had a lot of guys I'd call high impact starters or low range all-stars but certainly no one else who jumps out as an All-NBA (even 3rd team) candidate. Magic did exactly what was needed taking on extra scoring responsibilities and an even bigger playmaking responsibility.

That team probably shouldn't have won 65 games & being in a weak conference helps but Magic was magnificent.

1. '94 Olajuwon (retained for several threads now)
2. '65 Russell (retained)
3. '87 Magic (argument listed above).

[Gregoire]

1. 93 Hakeem
2. 94 Hakeem
3. 64 Russell

[penbeast0]

Bill Russell was the single most dominant player in the history of the NBA. Because he did it with defense and in the 60s, many dismiss this but he should have been in long ago, possibly at #1. (a) Who care how you dominate . . . scoring, playmaking, defense, multitalented . . . what is important is how much you contribute to team winning and in that, Russell is #1. (b) The 60s were appreciably stronger than the 70s due to expansion (Kareem already in) and probably stronger than the 80s (Magic, Bird, etc.) for the same reason.

1. Russell 62
2. Russell 64
3. Russell 65

[E-Balla]

1. Hakeem 94
2. Dr. J 76
3. Magic Johnson 87

These were all explained in my discussion post 2 threads ago. I do want to say I'm shocked Bird is in already, and shocked he's in without much discussion on why people picked him. Can we add a requirement that you have to give a detailed reasoning for your pick at least once (I know a few people actually made legit cases for Bird but a few didn't) because I feel like the amount of discussion for Bird was well under how much we discussed places 1-7.

[Mavericksfan]

I feel like Russell or Hakeem should definitely be next

1965 Russell
1964 Russell
1994 Hakeem

I think Magic should be next after these two

[Joey Wheeler]

1. Hakeem 94
2. Dr. J 76
3. Magic Johnson 87

These were all explained in my discussion post 2 threads ago. I do want to say I'm shocked Bird is in already, and shocked he's in without much discussion on why people picked him. Can we add a requirement that you have to give a detailed reasoning for your pick at least once (I know a few people actually made legit cases for Bird but a few didn't) because I feel like the amount of discussion for Bird was well under how much we discussed places 1-7.

I've been voting Bird since #1 and made my case for it, received absolutely no objections to the point I made or "Yeah, but player X is better because..." type replies either. I'd have replied (and still will) and discussed it, but can't really fight non-existent objections.

Around #3 or #4, other people started making their cases for Bird too, again with no real objections that I can remember. If he was under discussed it was because the people who disagreed with his selection didn't really express their objections.

[E-Balla]

1. Hakeem 94
2. Dr. J 76
3. Magic Johnson 87

These were all explained in my discussion post 2 threads ago. I do want to say I'm shocked Bird is in already, and shocked he's in without much discussion on why people picked him. Can we add a requirement that you have to give a detailed reasoning for your pick at least once (I know a few people actually made legit cases for Bird but a few didn't) because I feel like the amount of discussion for Bird was well under how much we discussed places 1-7.

I've been voting Bird since #1 and made my case for it, received absolutely no objections to the point I made or "Yeah, but player X is better because..." type replies either. I'd have replied (and still will) and discussed it, but can't really fight non-existent objections.

Around #3 or #4, other people started making their cases for Bird too, again with no real objections that I can remember. If he was under discussed it was because the people who disagreed with his selection didn't really express their objections.

That's why I pointed out how a few people made legit cases, I didn't say no one did.

[HHera187]

1 BILL RUSSELL 1964
Goat defensive season by far, anchored a - 11.5 rDRTG Boston Celtics.

2 HAKEEM OLAJUWON 1993
Despite the loss against Seattle for me was his best overall season. All time level defense (5 blk per game in PS) and 10.2 BPM, unbelievable

3 Stephen Curry 2016
Probably the best regular season of all time, he struggled in the finals because of 2 injuries, but I give him credit for the 7 games vs a superteam like OKC.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using RealGM mobile app

[euroleague]

1. Hakeem 93 - I’m changing my vote to 93, as he really dominated defensively at a GOAT level
as well as maintained offensive production. His two way dominance was 2nd after Wilt all-time in my rankings.

2. Hakeem 94 - similar to 93, dropped off a bit defensively but his elite playoff run was one of the biggest single-man carries in nba history.

3. Curry ‘16 - I debate between Curry and Dr J here, but I have to go with Curry’s RS in ‘16 over Erving’s PS in 76. Curry is the only unanimous MVP, set the W/L nba record, changed the way the game is played, and did it playing 34 mpg without exerting himself too much. If not for the PS injury, this may be the number 2 or 3 season

[Colbinii]

1. Hakeem 93 - I’m changing my vote to 93, as he really dominated defensively at a GOAT level
as well as maintained offensive production. His two way dominance was 2nd after Wilt all-time in my rankings.

2. Hakeem 94 - similar to 93, dropped off a bit defensively but his elite playoff run was one of the biggest single-man carries in nba history.

3. Curry ‘16 - I debate between Curry and Dr J here, but I have to go with Curry’s RS in ‘16 over Erving’s PS in 76. Curry is the only unanimous MVP, set the W/L nba record, changed the way the game is played, and did it playing 34 mpg without exerting himself too much. If not for the PS injury, this may be the number 2 or 3 season

Where do you have Russell's peak?

[euroleague]

1. Hakeem 93 - I’m changing my vote to 93, as he really dominated defensively at a GOAT level
as well as maintained offensive production. His two way dominance was 2nd after Wilt all-time in my rankings.

2. Hakeem 94 - similar to 93, dropped off a bit defensively but his elite playoff run was one of the biggest single-man carries in nba history.

3. Curry ‘16 - I debate between Curry and Dr J here, but I have to go with Curry’s RS in ‘16 over Erving’s PS in 76. Curry is the only unanimous MVP, set the W/L nba record, changed the way the game is played, and did it playing 34 mpg without exerting himself too much. If not for the PS injury, this may be the number 2 or 3 season

Where do you have Russell's peak?

I’m tempted to move it higher - I have him around Bill Walton. Russell was the better athlete, Walton the better playmaker - elite outlet passing, could find cutters, etc.

People always talk about his impact - but he AND Heinsohn replaced Macauley, and the Celtics net rating improved +4. Bird and McHale joining the Celtics was +11.3, and McHale was far less impactful than Heinsohn as a rookie. Kareem had +8.3 without any other significant additions. Shaq had +8.4. They were all the best player on teams who didn't meaningfully change. Other players' teams also had big improvements, but mostly through internal development or player additions which makes measuring their precise impact hard(Boozer on the Cavs with Lebron, the entire Spurs team with DRob, DRob getting healthy with Duncan).

I try to avoid debating Russell, as he has a lot of passionate supporters and I just don't have any big problem with him - he won a lot of rings, and most people voting for him are using logic, not just jumping on the bandwagon (such as many LBJ/MJ fans). he obviously revolutionized the game defensively

[Owly]

1. Hakeem 93 - I’m changing my vote to 93, as he really dominated defensively at a GOAT level
as well as maintained offensive production. His two way dominance was 2nd after Wilt all-time in my rankings.

2. Hakeem 94 - similar to 93, dropped off a bit defensively but his elite playoff run was one of the biggest single-man carries in nba history.

3. Curry ‘16 - I debate between Curry and Dr J here, but I have to go with Curry’s RS in ‘16 over Erving’s PS in 76. Curry is the only unanimous MVP, set the W/L nba record, changed the way the game is played, and did it playing 34 mpg without exerting himself too much. If not for the PS injury, this may be the number 2 or 3 season

Where do you have Russell's peak?

I’m tempted to move it higher - I have him around Bill Walton. Russell was the better athlete, Walton the better playmaker - elite outlet passing, could find cutters, etc.

People always talk about his impact - but he AND Heinsohn replaced Macauley, and the Celtics net rating improved +4. Bird and McHale joining the Celtics was +11.3, and McHale was far less impactful than Heinsohn as a rookie

I try to avoid debating Russell, as he has a lot of passionate supporters and I just don't have any big problem with him - he won a lot of rings, and most people voting for him are using logic, not just jumping on the bandwagon (such as many LBJ/MJ fans). he obviously revolutionized the game defensively

Some notes:

McHale didn't join at the same time as Bird. Bird arrived for '79-80, whereas McHale's first season was '80-81 (and fwiw, in both quality of play and quantity of minutes Parish was a more significant addition at that time).

'57 not only only sees the addition of Heinsohn and Russell (and the loss of Macauley) but the return from military service of Frank Ramsey, in terms of noteworthy players.

You can't really gauge the impact of Russell by comparing ''56 to '57 as Russell plays only 48 games.

The difference in Boston's netRtg (Ortg-Drtg) between in '79 and '80 is 12.3 ('79: 101.6 - 106.4 = -4.8; '80: 109.4 - 101.9 = 7.5; difference: 7.5 - -4.8 = 12.3).

More generally ...
Whilst I think Boston's perhaps less than expected improvement within '57 is often ignored by some Russell backers I'm not sure this is necessarily of huge relevance specifically to his peak impact, which is presumably many years away (though Bird's huge swing on arrival, is a positive signal, even with a somewhat noisy tool, giving a degree of comfort in a high level of impact)

[euroleague]

Where do you have Russell's peak?

I’m tempted to move it higher - I have him around Bill Walton. Russell was the better athlete, Walton the better playmaker - elite outlet passing, could find cutters, etc.

People always talk about his impact - but he AND Heinsohn replaced Macauley, and the Celtics net rating improved +4. Bird and McHale joining the Celtics was +11.3, and McHale was far less impactful than Heinsohn as a rookie

I try to avoid debating Russell, as he has a lot of passionate supporters and I just don't have any big problem with him - he won a lot of rings, and most people voting for him are using logic, not just jumping on the bandwagon (such as many LBJ/MJ fans). he obviously revolutionized the game defensively

Some notes:

McHale didn't join at the same time as Bird. Bird arrived for '79-80, whereas McHale's first season was '80-81 (and fwiw, in both quality of play and quantity of minutes Parish was a more significant addition at that time).

'57 not only only sees the addition of Heinsohn and Russell (and the loss of Macauley) but the return from military service of Frank Ramsey, in terms of noteworthy players.

You can't really gauge the impact of Russell by comparing ''56 to '57 as Russell plays only 48 games.

The difference in Boston's netRtg (Ortg-Drtg) between in '79 and '80 is 12.3 ('79: 101.6 - 106.4 = -4.8; '80: 109.4 - 101.9 = 7.5; difference: 7.5 - -4.8 = 12.3).

More generally ...
Whilst I think Boston's perhaps less than expected improvement within '57 is often ignored by some Russell backers I'm not sure this is necessarily of huge relevance specifically to his peak impact, which is presumably many years away (though Bird's huge swing on arrival, is a positive signal, even with a somewhat noisy tool, giving a degree of comfort in a high level of impact)

I’m not checking the numbers, carefully, as it’s annoying to use mobile.

I also have to look into how they judged ORTG and possessions in the 50s/60s, considering the lack of ORB numbers - it may be a misleading number.

However, their win count didn’t improve that much either - which is my preferred method of measurement

[Colbinii]

I’m tempted to move it higher - I have him around Bill Walton. Russell was the better athlete, Walton the better playmaker - elite outlet passing, could find cutters, etc.

People always talk about his impact - but he AND Heinsohn replaced Macauley, and the Celtics net rating improved +4. Bird and McHale joining the Celtics was +11.3, and McHale was far less impactful than Heinsohn as a rookie

I try to avoid debating Russell, as he has a lot of passionate supporters and I just don't have any big problem with him - he won a lot of rings, and most people voting for him are using logic, not just jumping on the bandwagon (such as many LBJ/MJ fans). he obviously revolutionized the game defensively

Some notes:

McHale didn't join at the same time as Bird. Bird arrived for '79-80, whereas McHale's first season was '80-81 (and fwiw, in both quality of play and quantity of minutes Parish was a more significant addition at that time).

'57 not only only sees the addition of Heinsohn and Russell (and the loss of Macauley) but the return from military service of Frank Ramsey, in terms of noteworthy players.

You can't really gauge the impact of Russell by comparing ''56 to '57 as Russell plays only 48 games.

The difference in Boston's netRtg (Ortg-Drtg) between in '79 and '80 is 12.3 ('79: 101.6 - 106.4 = -4.8; '80: 109.4 - 101.9 = 7.5; difference: 7.5 - -4.8 = 12.3).

More generally ...
Whilst I think Boston's perhaps less than expected improvement within '57 is often ignored by some Russell backers I'm not sure this is necessarily of huge relevance specifically to his peak impact, which is presumably many years away (though Bird's huge swing on arrival, is a positive signal, even with a somewhat noisy tool, giving a degree of comfort in a high level of impact)

I’m not checking the numbers, carefully, as it’s annoying to use mobile.

I also have to look into how they judged ORTG and possessions in the 50s/60s, considering the lack of ORB numbers - it may be a misleading number.

However, their win count didn’t improve that much either - which is my preferred method of measurement

All of this assumes you see Bill Russell as similar level throughout his entire career.

[euroleague]

Some notes:

McHale didn't join at the same time as Bird. Bird arrived for '79-80, whereas McHale's first season was '80-81 (and fwiw, in both quality of play and quantity of minutes Parish was a more significant addition at that time).

'57 not only only sees the addition of Heinsohn and Russell (and the loss of Macauley) but the return from military service of Frank Ramsey, in terms of noteworthy players.

You can't really gauge the impact of Russell by comparing ''56 to '57 as Russell plays only 48 games.

The difference in Boston's netRtg (Ortg-Drtg) between in '79 and '80 is 12.3 ('79: 101.6 - 106.4 = -4.8; '80: 109.4 - 101.9 = 7.5; difference: 7.5 - -4.8 = 12.3).

More generally ...
Whilst I think Boston's perhaps less than expected improvement within '57 is often ignored by some Russell backers I'm not sure this is necessarily of huge relevance specifically to his peak impact, which is presumably many years away (though Bird's huge swing on arrival, is a positive signal, even with a somewhat noisy tool, giving a degree of comfort in a high level of impact)

I’m not checking the numbers, carefully, as it’s annoying to use mobile.

I also have to look into how they judged ORTG and possessions in the 50s/60s, considering the lack of ORB numbers - it may be a misleading number.

However, their win count didn’t improve that much either - which is my preferred method of measurement

All of this assumes you see Bill Russell as similar level throughout his entire career.

No, he certainly improved - but, so did Bird. Other players had more obvious improvements - Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, etc. didn’t stop improving their rookie year.

Russell seems to have been much closer to a finished product than others, eg. Wilt/MJ - he fine tuned, but didn’t add new dimensions to his game.

[cecilthesheep]

Same votes from the last thread:

Russell '64
Russell '65
Hakeem '94

I think Russell is suffering because it's unclear what year was his best one. I really do think his impact is arguably the highest ever. He was certainly the most revolutionary player ever in my mind. He essentially invented rim protection as we know it today. The difference that made cannot possibly be overstated.

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote from previous round:

1. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon
2. 1965 Bill Russell
3. 1976 Julius Erving

[GeorgeMarcus]

1. '87 Magic
2. '16 Curry
3. '95 D Rob