Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson

[Brinbe]

After the trade, MLB Pipeline dropped Kay to a 50 FV and put him below Manoah. He’s 5th and SWR is 7th in our system.

MLB.com 2019 Prospect Watch

So a 5th and 7th ranked prospect from a top 10 farm? (Us) that seems like a decent return right?

Mets are deffo not a top 10 farm team lol. More like 23rd best and both these guys are 6th/7th best so not a great return... Nvm. You're talking about our system
My bad.

We also sent cash considerations which is just the poopoo icing on top of things.

[Schad]

They've actually been reranked by Fangraphs since the trade. SWR would have slotted fourth in their system now; the two are 5th and 6th in our rankings.

Comes down to what you think of SWR, really. Per Davidi, he's someone that we've coveted since the 2018 draft, and presumably have an even higher opinion of after the season he has had. If you put a fair bit of stock in his performance this year (and after his recent promotion, he's the youngest starter in the minors above low-A, and I believe the second-youngest starter in full-season ball overall after Pardinho) the value isn't spectacular, but neither is it bad.

[Skin Blues]

Not that Dickey was terrible, he was right around league average as a starter in Toronto, but obviously we would have been much better off with Syndergaard. Dickey wasn’t even on the Jays playoff roster in 2016, the same season Syndergaard was a 23 year old allstar. And D’Araoud was a solid, starting catcher for most of his Mets years. Even with the injuries.

I won’t even get into the collateral damage this trade caused but I, and likely 98% of Jays fans, would strongly disagree with your assessment here. This was the shining example of a terrible baseball trade when a team thought, wrongly, that they were getting the best player/sure thing.

Well that’s an interesting discussion because in my mind “BPA“ is usually a consensus and was the consensus that Dickie was the best player to be acquired for Syndergaard? It sounds like that Syndergaard was considered higher than dickies so in this case just because management thought that Dickey was the best player available doesn’t make it so. And again, I was arguing for “BPA” over drafting or trading for “need” because if you have bad management in place they can still pick the wrong player out of “need” just like they could “BPA”. Bad teams are bad because of bad management.

Dickey just won the cy young dude..Syndergaard was still a prospect the same Sanchez was.

Dickey was obviously the bpa at the time.

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Syndergaard was the 3rd best player in that trade. Not quite an afterthought, but he was a sweetener as opposed to the headliner. He had yet to throw a single pitch in high-A. Then he dominated each of the top 4 levels of the minors over the next 2 years. Sometimes, sh*t happens when you trade prospects.

Hopefully, one of these two guys we got, which I know nothing about, make the Mets regret trading for Stroman two years down the line.

[LBJSeizedMyID]

Most people on here disappointed expecting a return similar to what the Rays got for Archer, but think most teams weren't willing to give up that kind of return after seeing how it's turned out for the Pirates.

I'm fine with the return. If Kay can even get to #3 upside and Woods-Richardson keeps trending the way he has been this year, this will be a decent return in my opinion.

[polo007]

Stroman trade was inevitable, but the end still came with surprises - TSN.ca

It’s a somewhat intriguing return, if only because the initial reaction around baseball is that it’s a tad light.

Neither arm was considered a top 100 prospect, a subjective number that fails to even begin to tell the whole story of what a player could eventually become.

They are two very different pitchers at very different points on the development curve.

In Kay, the Jays get a close-to-ready MLB arm, one who had success in Double-A this season before struggling in his first taste of Triple-A.

Woods Richardson is the upside play.

A second-round pick in the 2018 draft, the A-ball results are encouraging and the power stuff and pedigree are aspects of the profile that allow you to dream, but Woods Richardson could also be two years away from being two years away.

The package is far from what Blue Jays fans were expecting in terms of name value and prospect ranking, but it’s impossible to fully evaluate what Atkins was able to extract without knowing where the market truly sat.

One source confirmed the obvious: The Blue Jays front office liked both of them more than the industry consensus.

More and more, teams are awfully hesitant to part with their top prospects in exchange for veterans, even if they come with a year and a half of team control like Stroman does.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Comes down to what you think of SWR, really. Per Davidi, he's someone that we've coveted since the 2018 draft, and presumably have an even higher opinion of after the season he has had. If you put a fair bit of stock in his performance this year (and after his recent promotion, he's the youngest starter in the minors above low-A, and I believe the second-youngest starter in full-season ball overall after Pardinho) the value isn't spectacular, but neither is it bad.

That's really how I see it. I like this trade. Anthony Kay... he's alright. I see a guy who can hopefully be a 3rd-5th starter and the Jays don't actually have that many of those guys lying around. SRF, Zeuch and Perez all look like relievers to me and while Murphy might surprise, I doubt it, nor am I sure that Dias is any good. If Pearson and Kay both work their way up as hoped, that would be a pretty massive boost, though probably not next season even if they are called up because they aren't going to be world-beaters as rookies. I also suspect Pearson won't be rushed.

SWR, though, adds to what is starting to become a very interesting collection of pitchers a few years off. Not a super large one but if the Jays can keep most of their guys healthy, they could follow their hitters with a quality group of pitchers. Add SWR to Manoah, Pardinho, Kloffenstein and maybe Kendall Williams, and that's becoming a much more interesting group. The team isn't going to be good overnight but there is enough there that if just a handful of guys truly break out (the likely scenario) the Jays will still be sitting pretty. Thank goodness they didn't deal with the Yankee's overhyped prospects. And while everyone is saying that they should have gotten San Diego to overpay, they really should have been telling San Diego as much.

[YogiStewart]

can't help but wonder if the Jays could have scored more by waiting another day

[I_Like_Dirt]

can't help but wonder if the Jays could have scored more by waiting another day

I think people are underselling the value here because of a negative impression of the Mets' farm system. The Jays got 2 guys who are probably in the top 100 to 120 range of prospects and if the Jays have one or both of those two ranked higher than BA does, that would be even better in their eyes. Waiting runs risks, too, and there is no guarantee they'd have even gotten what they did by waiting.

That said, the Jays still have Giles, too. So if anyone wants to give up loads of value for quality pitching, they still can. Giles shouldn't get as much as Stroman did but if teams actually want to make a push, then there are quite a few teams that should want Giles. The Nationals, Dodgers, Cardinals, Braves, Twins, As, Red Sox, etc. could all really use Giles.

[ratul]

God, why not just 'keep' stroman? The implication is that next year is a rebuild year - which will mean year FOUR of this car crash of an exec team.

[gundysmullet]

Most people on here disappointed expecting a return similar to what the Rays got for Archer, but think most teams weren't willing to give up that kind of return after seeing how it's turned out for the Pirates.

I'm fine with the return. If Kay can even get to #3 upside and Woods-Richardson keeps trending the way he has been this year, this will be a decent return in my opinion.

I think part of that may be true but I also don’t think that Shatkins is very good at trading and they still have three days left. I really would’ve waited to the last day and let the competitors one up each other.

[gundysmullet]

God, why not just 'keep' stroman? The implication is that next year is a rebuild year - which will mean year FOUR of this car crash of an exec team.

Of course next year is a “rebuild”, did you think otherwise? Other than Gurriel, the outfield is flat out atrocious and they still need to shore up their starting pitching. Patience young grasshopper, patience.

[gundysmullet]

To be honest, I think the team is actually OK with pitching depth in the minors, I would’ve gone for one pitcher and one stud outfielder.

[phillipmike]

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[I_Like_Dirt]

To be honest, I think the team is actually OK with pitching depth in the minors, I would’ve gone for one pitcher and one stud outfielder.

With this trade, they're a bit better but they still definitely need pitching. Not every one of these guys is going to work out, some will get hurt, and even the ones that make it will get hurt from time to time.

You're right about the outfield, though. It's downright awful right now. I do think the team is going to look to address it eventually but I doubt they're in a huge rush. It wouldn't surprise me if the team considers moving Biggio to right field. They used him there a bit last season and with Gurriel already in left, it's at the very least something the team is considering. If Kevin Smith ever decides to start playing well enough to deserve a call up (far from a guarantee at this point), I think the team would might go there. I'm not even sure Biggio has the bat to play in a corner outfield spot but regardless of whether the team makes that move or not, I'm not particularly worried about right field. The team really just needs a solid CF that matches the window their other players are opening. They've slowly moved on that end there, and have Chavez Young and now Dassan Brown - Brown in particular is pretty interesting. I do think the team will add a few outfielders over the coming season or two, though.

[polo007]

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[phillipmike]

So our projected 2022 rotation is:

Pearson
Pardinho
Kloffenstein
Kay?
Manoah?

I wouldnt count Borucki and Thornton out yet.

A lot of depth in the system now;

Borucki
Thornton

Pearson
Pardinho
Kloffenstein
Manoah
Woods-Richardson
Williams
Kay
Zeuch

Waguespack
Pannone
Gaviglio
Reid-Foley
Murphy
Perez
Diaz
Luciano

Still got the 2020 draft, IFA and more trades.

Got think the Jays will have 5 starters from that list by 2022 at the latest.

[Sanyo]

God, why not just 'keep' stroman? The implication is that next year is a rebuild year - which will mean year FOUR of this car crash of an exec team.

Why do we need to rebuild next year? We have a pretty decent lineup now, vast upgrade from the crappy lineup we had in April. Our pen is actually not bad (but pens are the most variable too). I think Vlad, Bichette and Biggio will be ready to go next year, I dont think those guys need 3-4 years to get going. Add Gurriel, Grichuk and hopefully Jansen can turn it around... we got a pretty decent lineup and maybe we can add a couple of vets like we did this year.

We have no starting pitching. I think next year we should actually start acquiring pitching and I think we may have a shot, at least at a wild card spot. If you see the Rays, Yanks, Sox, Dodgers, these teams consistently win and are able to integrate prospects into a winning organization. We dont.

Either we spend no money or Rogers goes insane and just goes on a spending/trading spree. We need to just build a consistent team. We cant rely on our pitching prospects to reverse our fortune cause we know the vast majority of them are going to be busts. If a Nate Pearson or Pardinho come along we can integrate them nicely and not put pressure on them to have to perform right away to get us to the next level.

So my basis is lets start to at least get somewhat competitive next year. We have top positional players in cheap deals for several more years...we dont want to piss away the ability to build a great team around top tier prospects at low value. Cause you know guys like Vladdy and Bichette will get very expensive very fast.

[Cyrus]

Most people on here disappointed expecting a return similar to what the Rays got for Archer, but think most teams weren't willing to give up that kind of return after seeing how it's turned out for the Pirates.

I'm fine with the return. If Kay can even get to #3 upside and Woods-Richardson keeps trending the way he has been this year, this will be a decent return in my opinion.

Not to mention Archer had far longer control at the time of the trade, he had like 4 yeas of control, or team options on his contract. Stroman has 1.5

[Ado05]

I dont think anyone expected an Archer like return, which was even looked at as an overpay at the time by the Pirates. Looks even worse now. Not realistic to expect an Archer like return, and I think most people knew that.

But I think its very fair to have expected more than what the Jays got.

[Duffman100]

To be honest, I think the team is actually OK with pitching depth in the minors, I would’ve gone for one pitcher and one stud outfielder.

With this trade, they're a bit better but they still definitely need pitching. Not every one of these guys is going to work out, some will get hurt, and even the ones that make it will get hurt from time to time.

You're right about the outfield, though. It's downright awful right now. I do think the team is going to look to address it eventually but I doubt they're in a huge rush. It wouldn't surprise me if the team considers moving Biggio to right field. They used him there a bit last season and with Gurriel already in left, it's at the very least something the team is considering. If Kevin Smith ever decides to start playing well enough to deserve a call up (far from a guarantee at this point), I think the team would might go there. I'm not even sure Biggio has the bat to play in a corner outfield spot but regardless of whether the team makes that move or not, I'm not particularly worried about right field. The team really just needs a solid CF that matches the window their other players are opening. They've slowly moved on that end there, and have Chavez Young and now Dassan Brown - Brown in particular is pretty interesting. I do think the team will add a few outfielders over the coming season or two, though.

Don't forget about Alford.