WOJ: Julius Randle 3/63M (Team Option)

[Deeeez Knicks]

Randle can get buckets. I want to see if he can play good or at least avg defense, improve his jumper to help spacing, pass the ball, be a leader, etc....basically do other things to help us win. I would rather see 18ppg and good/avg defense with other things, then 24ppg and bad defense. Not saying he can't do it, but the other things hold a lot more value and would help us more.

[Clyde_Style]

kp was an elite help defender but as a one on one defender he wasn't very good at all. he would get bullied by big guys down low and he was always slow to contest shooters on the perimeter.

That's really not true though, he was pretty average at post defense after his rookie year, with opponents shooting 40% against him in post ups the year he got hurt, and 36% in isolation. Really the only places he struggled were in the PnR and against spot up shooters, which are both dependent on teammates, and given that he was statistically elite defending spot ups his rookie year to one of the worst in the league his 2nd and 3rd years, I tend to side on it being more of a scheme thing than a problem with him

But as a one on one defender, he was very good

It is not entirely KP's fault that he gets abused from three because he was not being positioned as a center defensively still, but as a forward.

The scenario was very common where:

(a) KP drops defensively into mid-range or the post

(b) His man drifts back behind the three point line and gets a pass

(c) KP runs in vain to the three point line as his man splashes a three

or

(d) KP runs out to try to contest the three and man blows buy him

And this is part of the reason people wanted KP to play the center position. The problem there was he didn't have the strength, stamina or durability to handle the punishment of guarding the Embiid's of the world

Therefore, KP was stuck in no-man's land on defense all the time. Anyone who watched every Knicks game knows from experience KP was caught out of position on defense many times every single game.

That's the curse of being as tall as he is without having the physical strength to man the center position defensively. Until he does he will get caught flat-footed on defense trying to defend the perimeter on a regular basis.

[Clyde_Style]

Randle can get buckets. I want to see if he can play good or at least avg defense, improve his jumper to help spacing, pass the ball, be a leader, etc....basically do other things to help us win. I would rather see 18ppg and good/avg defense with other things, then 24ppg and bad defense. Not saying he can't do it, but the other things hold a lot more value and would help us more.

There is no real basis to frame it as an Either/Or scenario though. Randle is already a decent defender. His man defense will also certainly benefit from playing next to Mitch backing up the rim.

The only question I see in this is whether or not a player has the motor to play both sides of the ball late in the game.

Randle looks like he is ready to come into camp in the best shape of his career and he already had a good motor, therefore I think his D will hold up even if he expends energy being a scorer.

[DOT]

kp was an elite help defender but as a one on one defender he wasn't very good at all. he would get bullied by big guys down low and he was always slow to contest shooters on the perimeter.

That's really not true though, he was pretty average at post defense after his rookie year, with opponents shooting 40% against him in post ups the year he got hurt, and 36% in isolation. Really the only places he struggled were in the PnR and against spot up shooters, which are both dependent on teammates, and given that he was statistically elite defending spot ups his rookie year to one of the worst in the league his 2nd and 3rd years, I tend to side on it being more of a scheme thing than a problem with him

But as a one on one defender, he was very good

It is not entirely KP's fault that he gets abused from three because he was not being positioned as a center defensively still, but as a forward.

The scenario was very common where:

(a) KP drops defensively into mid-range or the post

(b) His man drifts back behind the three point line and gets a pass

(c) KP runs in vain to the three point line as his man splashes a three

or

(d) KP runs out to try to contest the three and man blows buy him

And this is part of the reason people wanted KP to play the center position. The problem there was he didn't have the strength, stamina or durability to handle the punishment of guarding the Embiid's of the world

Therefore, KP was stuck in no-man's land on defense all the time. Anyone who watched every Knicks game knows from experience KP was caught out of position on defense many times every single game.

That's the curse of being as tall as he is without having the physical strength to man the center position defensively. Until he does he will get caught flat-footed on defense trying to defend the perimeter on a regular basis.

And like I said in the post, I attribute that more to coaching than KP. His rookie year, he was in the 80th percentile for defending spot up shooters, which then dropped to 20s by his third year. Did he all of a sudden forget how to stick to his man? No, we changed coaches and brought in worse defensive Cs to pair him with, meaning there was more times when he needed to help in order to prevent easy layups, which left his man open

I know he was in no man's land, he needed to get stronger to handle being a full time C, but I'm just speaking facts. When he did need to defend post guys, he did it well, when guys tried to isolate him on the perimeter, he did that well too, and when he had a competent defensive C and was coached to stick to his man, his spot up defense was pretty good

You never thought about why he was cheating so much which allowed guys to get open for 3? Coach told him to, and he needed to because Noah and Kanter didn't cut it

[Clyde_Style]

That's really not true though, he was pretty average at post defense after his rookie year, with opponents shooting 40% against him in post ups the year he got hurt, and 36% in isolation. Really the only places he struggled were in the PnR and against spot up shooters, which are both dependent on teammates, and given that he was statistically elite defending spot ups his rookie year to one of the worst in the league his 2nd and 3rd years, I tend to side on it being more of a scheme thing than a problem with him

But as a one on one defender, he was very good

It is not entirely KP's fault that he gets abused from three because he was not being positioned as a center defensively still, but as a forward.

The scenario was very common where:

(a) KP drops defensively into mid-range or the post

(b) His man drifts back behind the three point line and gets a pass

(c) KP runs in vain to the three point line as his man splashes a three

or

(d) KP runs out to try to contest the three and man blows buy him

And this is part of the reason people wanted KP to play the center position. The problem there was he didn't have the strength, stamina or durability to handle the punishment of guarding the Embiid's of the world

Therefore, KP was stuck in no-man's land on defense all the time. Anyone who watched every Knicks game knows from experience KP was caught out of position on defense many times every single game.

That's the curse of being as tall as he is without having the physical strength to man the center position defensively. Until he does he will get caught flat-footed on defense trying to defend the perimeter on a regular basis.

And like I said in the post, I attribute that more to coaching than KP. His rookie year, he was in the 80th percentile for defending spot up shooters, which then dropped to 20s by his third year. Did he all of a sudden forget how to stick to his man? No, we changed coaches and brought in worse defensive Cs to pair him with, meaning there was more times when he needed to help in order to prevent easy layups, which left his man open

I know he was in no man's land, he needed to get stronger to handle being a full time C, but I'm just speaking facts. When he did need to defend post guys, he did it well, when guys tried to isolate him on the perimeter, he did that well too, and when he had a competent defensive C and was coached to stick to his man, his spot up defense was pretty good

You never thought about why he was cheating so much which allowed guys to get open for 3? Coach told him to, and he needed to because Noah and Kanter didn't cut it

We're not disagreeing. He was better when Lopez was behind him.

His strength though will be a big issue going forward, because it will always be issue for any coach if he can't play the C position and has to stay glued to faster players on the outside.

Carlisle is considered a decent coach, but all I see at C for them is Boban who may not count as a full-time starting C so they can still have the same issues with KP.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Randle can get buckets. I want to see if he can play good or at least avg defense, improve his jumper to help spacing, pass the ball, be a leader, etc....basically do other things to help us win. I would rather see 18ppg and good/avg defense with other things, then 24ppg and bad defense. Not saying he can't do it, but the other things hold a lot more value and would help us more.

There is no real basis to frame it as an Either/Or scenario though. Randle is already a decent defender. His man defense will also certainly benefit from playing next to Mitch backing up the rim.

The only question I see in this is whether or not a player has the motor to play both sides of the ball late in the game.

Randle looks like he is ready to come into camp in the best shape of his career and he already had a good motor, therefore I think his D will hold up even if he expends energy being a scorer.

Randle’s defense was bad last year. His motor runs high on offense, but low on defense. He had a lot of lapses on that end all game/year.

The man can score for sure and I have no question about that. My main point is ppg in a vacuum is pretty meaningless. It doesn’t have to be an either/or but improving in the other areas would help us a lot more and the bigger question imo.

[god shammgod]

kp was an elite help defender but as a one on one defender he wasn't very good at all. he would get bullied by big guys down low and he was always slow to contest shooters on the perimeter.

That's really not true though, he was pretty average at post defense after his rookie year, with opponents shooting 40% against him in post ups the year he got hurt, and 36% in isolation. Really the only places he struggled were in the PnR and against spot up shooters, which are both dependent on teammates, and given that he was statistically elite defending spot ups his rookie year to one of the worst in the league his 2nd and 3rd years, I tend to side on it being more of a scheme thing than a problem with him

But as a one on one defender, he was very good

i don't think i really disagree much with anything you said. but if he's average at post defense and struggles on the perimeter, how does that equal a very good defender ? and he definitely was better in year 1. i don't know that it's a scheme thing. maybe his offensive load was less so he could put more energy into defense. i didn't see that same motor for it after year 1.

[bearadonisdna]

Randle can get buckets. I want to see if he can play good or at least avg defense, improve his jumper to help spacing, pass the ball, be a leader, etc....basically do other things to help us win. I would rather see 18ppg and good/avg defense with other things, then 24ppg and bad defense. Not saying he can't do it, but the other things hold a lot more value and would help us more.

Give me the 24 ppg my friend. Defense is subjective, you could be pretty ok but somebody else will say it sucks.

We all want randle to be a positive player, this would usually include scoring more than ur guy and defense will come into play AT some point. Just i think it's more serviceable Julius excel at his 'strength/role' of the Knicks projected top scorer. 18 ppg is exactly all star caliber, 24 certainly is, the defense won't be the deciding factor, team record will be.

[Clyde_Style]

Randle can get buckets. I want to see if he can play good or at least avg defense, improve his jumper to help spacing, pass the ball, be a leader, etc....basically do other things to help us win. I would rather see 18ppg and good/avg defense with other things, then 24ppg and bad defense. Not saying he can't do it, but the other things hold a lot more value and would help us more.

There is no real basis to frame it as an Either/Or scenario though. Randle is already a decent defender. His man defense will also certainly benefit from playing next to Mitch backing up the rim.

The only question I see in this is whether or not a player has the motor to play both sides of the ball late in the game.

Randle looks like he is ready to come into camp in the best shape of his career and he already had a good motor, therefore I think his D will hold up even if he expends energy being a scorer.

Randle’s defense was bad last year. His motor runs high on offense, but low on defense. He had a lot of lapses on that end all game/year.

The man can score for sure and I have no question about that. My main point is ppg in a vacuum is pretty meaningless. It doesn’t have to be an either/or but improving in the other areas would help us a lot more and the bigger question imo.

OK. It should be a concern as he will be high usage. We've had conflicting reports on the board re: his defense. Some Lakers fans have posted he is a decent defender. Whether that is true now or perhaps he lapsed in NO I don't know. I haven't studied the stats on his D. We'll have to watch him as a Knick to be sure either way. I hope he is competent on D just as you do.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Randle can get buckets. I want to see if he can play good or at least avg defense, improve his jumper to help spacing, pass the ball, be a leader, etc....basically do other things to help us win. I would rather see 18ppg and good/avg defense with other things, then 24ppg and bad defense. Not saying he can't do it, but the other things hold a lot more value and would help us more.

Give me the 24 ppg my friend. Defense is subjective, you could be pretty ok but somebody else will say it sucks.

We all want randle to be a positive player, this would usually include scoring more than ur guy and defense will come into play AT some point. Just i think it's more serviceable Julius excel at his 'strength/role' of the Knicks projected top scorer. 18 ppg is exactly all star caliber, 24 certainly is, the defense won't be the deciding factor, team record will be.

Individual defense can be subjective in terms of judgement, but I think it will show in the standings and results. Its not really just on Randle, but I think he is a key part of it. If we have any chance of making a run we will need to be a good defensive team. If we can make a run, then the accolades will come.

[K_ick_God]

Yeah I'm really not sure that KP is such a great impact defender. I have to defer to the stats that do show his advanced numbers were good in all situations. I don't know. He seemed a step slow on a lot of contests but I guess he makes up for it with height. Then loses some inside with weight.

I think Mitch is better, and I think he will be better. I think Mitch + Randle is nice and is better than KP because it's going to be hard to find someone who really fits with KP in the frontcourt. He's a weird fit at the very least.

Mitch + Randle I have confidence in. It's a problem for teams. Now we need RJ or Knox to be really good and we've got something.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Yeah I'm really not sure that KP is such a great impact defender. I have to defer to the stats that do show his advanced numbers were good in all situations. I don't know. He seemed a step slow on a lot of contests but I guess he makes up for it with height. Then loses some inside with weight.

I think Mitch is better, and I think he will be better. I think Mitch + Randle is nice and is better than KP because it's going to be hard to find someone who really fits with KP in the frontcourt. He's a weird fit at the very least.

Mitch + Randle I have confidence in. It's a problem for teams. Now we need RJ or Knox to be really good and we've got something.

KP struggles on the perimeter, understandably. but he's pretty good on-man. and an elite rim protector if nothing else.

mitch is already better at D than KP. at worst he's as good a rim protector. he defends the perimeter extremely well for a big in switch situations. he and KP both struggle with heavier/stronger bruiser types. but i'm not too worried about that.

[Jeff Van Gully]

all randle has to do is give a damn on defense for his contract to be a steal.

[Knicksfan1992]

Think it's worth noting that New Orleans defense was slightly below average when Randle, Davis, and Payton shared the floor and the Pels were actually above average when it was Holiday, Randle and Davis. Assuming Mitch can do a decent job replicating AD's defense and our wing depth is better than New Orleans was last year, I think we can be fine defensively with Mitch and Randle on the floor.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Think it's worth noting that New Orleans defense was slightly below average when Randle, Davis, and Payton shared the floor and the Pels were actually above average when it was Holiday, Randle and Davis. Assuming Mitch can do a decent job replicating AD's defense and our wing depth is better than New Orleans was last year, I think we can be fine defensively with Mitch and Randle on the floor.

Those are 2 all-NBA defensive players. The Pelicans defense was at its best when Randle was on the bench more so then any other player. His defense was bad last year.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612740/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1

[malik959]

So we should tie up all means of flexibility until 2022 for what reason exactly?

So the Knicks might have a marginally better offense in a season that we aren't even remotely close to contending?

there it is. the logic this discussion needed. who cares if cp runs the offense a little better ? what is the endgame ? this is ridiculous.

I do understand the point, the theory is that by having an actual good facilitator, our young guys like RJ, Knox, and Mitch will have an easier time developing offensively because they don't have to work as hard all the time because CP3 is putting them in the best positions

But then you run into the brick wall that is getting him would destroy our flexibility. If he were only under contract for 2 years, or if we weren't aiming to have cap space in 2021, I'd be for it. But because he isn't, and we are, logically speaking it's not worth it

But..... wouldn't you have to give up players Knox, Trier, DSJ.... in order to get Paul? He's not worth it. If we had some larger contracts on our team and we didn't have to give up youth to get him (like Knox) than I'd say we could make it work, but having Paul with a young squad is just as bad as having Melo with KP developing.

[K_ick_God]

Think it's worth noting that New Orleans defense was slightly below average when Randle, Davis, and Payton shared the floor and the Pels were actually above average when it was Holiday, Randle and Davis. Assuming Mitch can do a decent job replicating AD's defense and our wing depth is better than New Orleans was last year, I think we can be fine defensively with Mitch and Randle on the floor.

Those are 2 all-NBA defensive players. The Pelicans defense was at its best when Randle was on the bench more so then any other player. His defense was bad last year.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612740/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1

Makes sense. It’s possible that Mitch can more than cover for any 4’s D. Also hopefully the sheer kinetic energy of Mitch will cause defensive motion to swirl. But yeah a noticeable weak link would be a problem.

[meetbishop]

Read on Twitter

I got Randle as the 3rd or 4th best true power forward in the East but the lack of respect he gets is crazy to me! I was looking at some of the position rankings... and he's not mentioned

How do you average 20 & 8 and not be considered a top PF even if you played 0 defense. And nothing against Sabonis or Isaac but I don't have them above Randle.

Exactly my point. If you put the right players around Randle in his 5th (4th since he was hurt the first year) I believe he has the potential to carry a team in the East to the playoffs like D'Angelo Russell did.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

Read on Twitter

This is the game Scott and Steve always reference when talking about how unathletic we were.

[BKlutch]

kp was an elite help defender but as a one on one defender he wasn't very good at all. he would get bullied by big guys down low and he was always slow to contest shooters on the perimeter.

His one on one defense was never that good, and I felt he was slower than a lot of the smaller guys he tried to defend. Even Mitch, whose footwork is not yet where it should be, is a lot faster than KP and has better, faster instincts. With training, Mich could be what we always wanted KP to be on defense, but never was.