Peaks project update: #10

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Peaks project update: #10 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:00 pm

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94

Time limit to get your vote in: 60 hours. Please submit your votes by 9:00 pm July 31 Eastern Time

The rules

Reasoning/statistical support is required for votes to be counted. A simple list of names will not be counted.

THE VOTING SYSTEM:

Everyone gives their 1st-ballot choice, 2nd-ballot choice, and 3rd-ballot choice. I'll award 4.5 pts for a 1st ballot, 3 for a 2nd ballot, and 2 for a 3rd. Highest point-total wins the spot (24-hour run-off will then only be done in the unlikely event of a tie).

Players don't get credit for all the votes they receive in a round, we just count the votes (and the points) for the designated year. At the end of the 48 hours (not sure about that) the season that has most points wins. Other voted seasons of the winning player will get a mention.

So, you can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#2 » by NbaAllDay » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:41 pm

Just wanted to ask in this forum as I've often noticed a trend around Magic.

Magic is often seen as around the 5th or so best player by a lot of different rankings I have seen. Even then it's rare he is pushed past the 8th spot all time and is often ahead of Bird and Hakeem and to an extend Duncan.

With that being said I do expect him to probably get the 10th or 11th spot but considering he didnt really have a long peak or prime compared to the other all time greats (or at least to the point where he has no advantage over other in this area)

It might be splitting hairs at this point but I wonder if some of the mystique of his game and the accumulation of 5 rings with his 3 (not overall strong comparatively MVPs) elevates him if ever so slightly over his actually bball ability/length of prime.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#3 » by E-Balla » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:32 pm

NbaAllDay wrote:Just wanted to ask in this forum as I've often noticed a trend around Magic.

Magic is often seen as around the 5th or so best player by a lot of different rankings I have seen. Even then it's rare he is pushed past the 8th spot all time and is often ahead of Bird and Hakeem and to an extend Duncan.

With that being said I do expect him to probably get the 10th or 11th spot but considering he didnt really have a long peak or prime compared to the other all time greats (or at least to the point where he has no advantage over other in this area)

It might be splitting hairs at this point but I wonder if some of the mystique of his game and the accumulation of 5 rings with his 3 (not overall strong comparatively MVPs) elevates him if ever so slightly over his actually bball ability/length of prime.

I think you're overestimating the gap between these spots. Like sure Magic isn't as good as peak Jordan but he's still good enough to be the best player in the league for all but like 20 years in league history and in those years he'd probably still be #2.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#4 » by HHera187 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:52 pm

N.1: BILL WALTON 1977
We can't compare his career with others all time greats, but his 1977 is arguably a top 7 8 season for a center. His defense was probably only behind Bill Russell level, unbelievable passing skills and solid scoring ability.

N.2: STEPHEN CURRY 2016
Simply the best offensive regular season of all time, 73 W in a 50 W team. Despite the finals and injuries his playoffs performance was very good (he was the best player on the court vs OKC).

N.3 MAGIC JOHNSON 1987
The West was a joke, it's all about his unbelievable finals vs Boston.

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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#5 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic
Ballot #2 - 76 Dr. J
Ballot #3 - 64 Oscar

--------------------

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic

Magic was a unique and special player. Took his game to another level that season, especially when relied on more as a primary offensive option. He led the lakers to league best 67-15 record and ultimately the championship against the celtics.

RS - 23.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .5 BPG, 60.2% TS, 124 ORTG, .263 WS/48

PS - 21.8 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .4 BPG, 60.2% TS, 129 ORTG, .265 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-finals-celtics-vs-lakers.html



Via NY Times from 12/6/87

Even then he flirted with a reputation as the game's greatest player. Now 28 - the start of what many feel are a player's peak years - and coming off his best season, he has a legitimate claim to it.

What a season it was! Playing brilliantly from November to June, Johnson led Los Angeles to its fifth world championship, ran away with the N.B.A.'s Most Valuable Player Award, led the league in assists (his 977 were 129 more than the runner-up) and finished in the top 10 in scoring.

He was also named the best player in the championship series against the Boston Celtics, his hook shot with two seconds left winning the pivotal fourth game and his all-out play breaking open a close final contest. His totals for that last game were 16 points (12 in the third quarter when the Lakers rallied), 19 assists, 8 rebounds and 3 steals.

''Can the game be played any better than Magic played it in the third period. . .?'' asked Sports Illustrated.


Via Sports Illustrated from 6/29/87

This year the Lakers finally were Magic's team: Speed is power, power is speed. Slowly the cast had changed. Michael Cooper had emerged; A.C. Green and James Worthy had been added. Even Mychal Thompson, the most important pickup by either team this year, once was strong enough to play center yet was fast enough to play small forward at times. One had, at certain moments, a sense of watching a prototype of a different breed of athlete -- strong, fast, disciplined -- playing at a level of stunning intensity, with surprisingly few turnovers.

If the Knicks of the late '60s could be described as four guards and one forward (Willis Reed), then this was often a team of four forwards led by a point guard who could, in a very recent era, have played power forward. What made the series so special was the sharp contrast in the styles of Los Angeles and Boston and the knowledge that these two teams, with cameo appearances by Philadelphia and Houston, have essentially dominated the championships since Bird and Johnson entered the league in 1979. That and, of course, the fact that both teams have gradually been shaped to the styles and contours of their superstars, one white and one black.

The Celtics, this year's defending champions, play half-court basketball, and they play it better than any team in the league. That they had even made it to the finals was remarkable, given the death of Len Bias, the infirmities of Bill Walton and the fact that Kevin McHale and Robert Parish were both playing with injuries. But Boston finally lacked the bench mandatory for a tough playoff final and the speed to stay with L.A. in a running game. The Celtic front line, after all, was composed of three exceptional basketball players, while the first seven players for the Lakers seemed to be both exceptional basketball players and exceptional athletes.

One had to look no further than the contrast between McHale and Worthy to understand the classic matchup displayed in this series. If the Lakers controlled the tempo, it would mean that Worthy -- possibly the fastest big man going to the basket in the league -- would be a dominant player; if the Celtics controlled the pace, it meant they would be able to get the ball to McHale, surprisingly nimble and deft, uncommonly skilled at using his body and arms for maximum leverage. Each was an extension of the best of his team. For Worthy to be Worthy, Magic had to be Magic; for McHale to get the ball where he wanted it, Larry Bird and the Celtic offense had to move in proper mesh. If one was having a good game, the other probably was not.


Ballot #2 - 76 Dr. J



I get it. It's a 5 minute clip, but I still think you can tell just how talented this guy was that year. An unstoppable offensive force leading his team to the championship. Nets also ranked 1st in defense that season.

For those who doubt the ABA, check out his per 100 #s in 76 vs. 80:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html#per_poss::none

They’re nearly identical including efficiency. This is when he was given a bigger role in the offense after Cunningham came aboard as coach.

It’s possible his ball handling is being underrated here due aesthetics. He kinda slapped the ball down as he dribbled, especially on the fast break. Similar to the way Barkley dribbled in his Sixers days. While it may have looked a little sloppy, I think it was just as effective given his big hands and long strides once he went to make his moves.

Also, his ability to get off shots at the rim in tight spaces was pretty incredible. This also had a lot to do with his body control.

The below footage is from 74, but it's pretty similar to the way he was playing in 76.



Ballot #3 - 64 Oscar

Oscar's 64 season was very impressive on a number of levels:

RS: 31.4 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 11 APG, 48.3% FG, 85.3% FT (league leading on 11.9 FTAs per game), 57.6% TS (+9.1% vs. league avg), .278 WS/48

PS: 29.3 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 8.4 APG, 45.5% FG, 85.8% FT (12.7 FTAs per game), 56.8% TS, .245 WS/48

The royals ranked 2nd in SRS that season, losing in the playoffs to the #1 ranked SRS and eventual champion celtics. While his raw averages can certainly be attributed to the fast paced play during that era, his overall efficiency and ability to get to the line at will is pretty staggering.

Oscar's playoff #s do drop slightly across the board, but there's nothing there to suggest that he struggled. His best teammate Jerry Lucas had a serious drop off in scoring and efficiency come playoff time (17.7 PPG on 57.8% TS in RS vs. 12.2 PPG on 43.8% TS in PS). That very well could've been the difference in the series.

63-64 was his 4th season, so the below footage should be able to capture his style of play at the time:



[Yeah... I could do without the music]

What stands out to me is his precision when he makes his moves as well as his strength when he gets inside. Reminds me of west, too, although he wasn't quite as powerful.

Oscar would win also win MVP that season in dominating fashion. Via NY Times:

Oscar Robertson, the Cincin­nati Royals' talented back‐court man, yesterday was voted the President's Trophy, the Na­tional Basketball Association's most valuable player award, by the biggest margin on record.

The voting is by N.B.A. play­ers, with the restriction that they cannot vote for members of their own teams. Robertson received 60 of a possible 85 first‐place votes. In the point scoring on a 5, 3, 1 basis, Robertson received a total of 362 points, a record.

Wilt Chamberlain of San Francisco, who won the trophy as a rookie in 1960, placed see­ond in the voting with 19 first­place votes and 215 points. Bill Russell of Boston, the winner for the last three years, was third with 11 firsts and 167 points.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#6 » by RoyceDa59 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 pm

NbaAllDay wrote:Just wanted to ask in this forum as I've often noticed a trend around Magic.

Magic is often seen as around the 5th or so best player by a lot of different rankings I have seen. Even then it's rare he is pushed past the 8th spot all time and is often ahead of Bird and Hakeem and to an extend Duncan.

With that being said I do expect him to probably get the 10th or 11th spot but considering he didnt really have a long peak or prime compared to the other all time greats (or at least to the point where he has no advantage over other in this area)

It might be splitting hairs at this point but I wonder if some of the mystique of his game and the accumulation of 5 rings with his 3 (not overall strong comparatively MVPs) elevates him if ever so slightly over his actually bball ability/length of prime.


I think Magic is certainly the most overrated of the 'top 10' players all-time.

Wasn't a spectacular scorer or shooter.
Wasn't a spectacular defender.
Was an elite/all-worldly floor general, facilitator and shot creator.
Played on unbelievable stacked teams, and never won a championship without Kareem.

He would be closer to 15-20th on my all-time redraft list. As in, if I were starting a franchise from scratch and could have any player in history at 20-years old to build around, Magic does not crack the top 10 for me.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#7 » by Odinn21 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:10 pm

NbaAllDay wrote:Just wanted to ask in this forum as I've often noticed a trend around Magic.

Magic is often seen as around the 5th or so best player by a lot of different rankings I have seen. Even then it's rare he is pushed past the 8th spot all time and is often ahead of Bird and Hakeem and to an extend Duncan.

With that being said I do expect him to probably get the 10th or 11th spot but considering he didnt really have a long peak or prime compared to the other all time greats (or at least to the point where he has no advantage over other in this area)

It might be splitting hairs at this point but I wonder if some of the mystique of his game and the accumulation of 5 rings with his 3 (not overall strong comparatively MVPs) elevates him if ever so slightly over his actually bball ability/length of prime.

Well, like already E-Balla stated the difference between these names aren't so big.

Also, in most of rankings lists, I think Magic is a bit overrated. They're too focused around the hype around him.

For example in ESPN's list, Magic is ranked at #4 and Bird is ranked at #6. Slam has Magic at #3 and Bird at #10.

From 1979-80 to 1987-88, the only season Magic clearly played better than Bird was 1981-82 season. Even in 1986-87 season while Magic was player of the year, it was a toss-up between him and Bird.

This is from Top 40 Player (seasons) of '87 thread;
Odinn21 wrote:As for Magic/Bird/Jordan, I have Bird as the best still.

The West was so uncompetitive against the Lakers and Magic, it had a considerable impact.
The Lakers had 9.30 MOV and 8.31 SRS. That is -0.99 SOS and it's the league's worst.
And their playoff competition;
1st round against 37-45 Nuggets, -1.14 SRS (15/23)
2nd round against 42-40 Warriors, -2.54 SRS (16/23)
WCF against 39-43 Sonics, 0.08 SRS (6/23)
NBA Finals against 59-23 Celtics, 6.57 SRS (3/23)
Averages; 44.3 wins, 0.74 SRS, 10.0 SRS rank

Not trying to take anything from Magic. IMHO, if Bird were in his position, I'd doubt that he'd do worse. Aside from beating the C's (who were pretty worn down) in the Finals, they just cruised in the season.
Kevin McHale was better than any other Laker than Magic surely but as for the overall help it's obvious.

Bird on the other hand, played in a way tougher conference. In regular season, Boston team had -0.07 SOS. Bird was still insanely good. His EFF, BPM and VORP numbers are better than Magic. Magic has him beat in PER and WS/48. He played great against the EC. Boston team didn't have a proper bench and they won 59 games, had 3rd best SRS and made it to the NBA Finals thanks to Bird.

Edit:
A stat about bench/help thing; in the playoffs, Bird played in 90.7% of all minutes Boston played (1015/1119). The same ratio for Magic is 77.1% (666/864). Magic got rested nearly double of Bird even though playing 5 less games (104 to 198 mins).

As for Jordan, I believe at this stage of his career I wouldn't pick him over Bird and Magic if my team has decent winning conditions.

I'd go Bird > Magic > Jordan for the season. Magic dominated the season, I can't argue against that. If the approach here is rather 'player of the season', then it's Magic. But I'm picking Bird as the best player in the season. It's just the competition that got dominated is an important factor to me.



Bird was the better player but Magic is ranked ahead of him because he was more loved and he had more accolades. Slam also has Bryant at their #5 which is ridicilous.

And most people tend to value these lists because looking further isn't for them and that's not a bad thing.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:20 pm

Special for Clyde, here are more footage of Dr J from 1976 season:





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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#9 » by pandrade83 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:47 pm

#1 - '87 Magic. Anchored a 65 win team without any other player who was playing at an All-NBA Level to an absurd offensive performance.
------------------------------------------

Now things get murky. I've got a handful of candidates for this spot in mind:

-'76 Dr J
-'64 Oscar
-'04 KG
-'16 Steph
-'74 McAdoo
-'95 Robinson
-'93 Barkley
Since I'm traveling (and for fun), I'll give a brief pros/cons of each:

-Dr J: Some don't take the ABA as seriously, but imo the Finals between New Jersey & Denver was very likely the two best teams of the year. He declined some from '77-'79, but had a resurgence from '80-'82 that shows he had it within him - it just didn't come out during those years.

'64 Oscar - anchored a +4.3 offense, 2nd best team in the league but he personally struggled vs. Boston & the series wasn't that competitive.

'04 KG - the most polarizing player on the board. You're either on-board with what all the data tells us about him or you're not.

'16 Steph - I have a feeling he'd be in by now had he not suffered injuries in the Finals. The injuries are a real thing - his playoff "weakness" is grossly over-stated when you sit down & look at the numbers.

'74 McAdoo (could also do '75) - one of the under-rated big peaks. 31-15-3 blocks per game, 59% TS, led league in PER, gave eventual champ Boston a real run & had nothing around him.

'95 Robinson - the elephant in the room is of course - the '95 WCF.

'93 Barkley - didn't have the same "problem" that some of the others did in the playoffs, did lead a team without another true All-NBA caliber player (at that stage in their career) to very nearly toppling Chicago. Weakest defensive front-court player of this bunch, not as gaudy of a RS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2 - '76 Julius Erving - the only one of this group to take it over the finish line & close the deal.

#3 - #16 Stephen Curry - I get that he had problems in the Finals but his playoff performance in general is a bit underrated & his playoff "issues" didn't come til much later than any of these others.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#10 » by liamliam1234 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:01 pm

NbaAllDay wrote:Just wanted to ask in this forum as I've often noticed a trend around Magic.

Magic is often seen as around the 5th or so best player by a lot of different rankings I have seen. Even then it's rare he is pushed past the 8th spot all time and is often ahead of Bird and Hakeem and to an extend Duncan.

With that being said I do expect him to probably get the 10th or 11th spot but considering he didnt really have a long peak or prime compared to the other all time greats (or at least to the point where he has no advantage over other in this area)

It might be splitting hairs at this point but I wonder if some of the mystique of his game and the accumulation of 5 rings with his 3 (not overall strong comparatively MVPs) elevates him if ever so slightly over his actually bball ability/length of prime.


I will take a stab at this.

If we run through the rest of the top eleven, longevity is not quite the disadvantage it might initially appear to be:

- Magic: Effectively twelve value years (although I think the brief 1996 comeback did a good job showcasing how well he probably could have aged)
- Jordan: Eleven to twelve generally perceived “value” years (1985-1998, skipping 1994 and the bulk of 1986 and 1995)
- Bird: Twelve-ish years, with the later years fraught with injury
- Russell: Thirteen years
- Wilt: Thirteen to fourteen years (1970 being mostly a lost regular season)
- Hakeem: Thirteen years of meaningful value before a steep injury drop-off in 1998
- Shaq: Fourteen years of meaningful value (with frequent regular season injuries) before a steep drop-off in 2007
- Kobe: Fourteen or fifteen years of meaningful value (discounting his post-Achilles career and his early, normally-would-be-collegiate years)

So really the only ones I would say have a clear and definite longevity advantage are Kareem, Lebron, and Duncan. But Lebron is pretty much a consensus top three at worst among the non-thick fans (nothing to be done about homers who would take Kobe or Bird over him), and Kareem is somewhat less strongly in that top three tier as well, so that leaves Duncan as the only common point of comparison where Magic clearly loses the longevity battle. But even for Duncan, most people admit he had a clear drop-off after 2007, and I think a lot of fans basically act as if he had a decade of prime relevance accompanied by nine years of immensely graceful aging (especially around the time in 2012 or 2013 when he slimmed down and had a minor resurgence). I personally hold both halves of his career is pretty high regard, but at this point I feel like the average fan just starts to compare the normal extended primes (in Duncan’s case, 1998-2007, with unique late career bonuses). And unlike Shaq and Hakeem, Magic gets that immediate rookie superstardom, so really past Lebron and Kareem everyone is being compared in terms of their best twelve or thirteen years (again, not exactly a period which favours Duncan). And if that is the frame, then Magic, the clear-cut best point guard ever, who won three MVPs, five titles, and three Finals MVPs, and who retired because of an unprecedented health issue after leading his team to a ninth finals appearance, superficially has as strong a case as pretty much any of them.

The longevity aspect matters a lot to me personally, which is why I only put him at eight or nine all-time, but to someone who values it somewhat less, it is easy to look at a guy who was in the wholly unique situation (apart from maybe Mikan, I guess) of retiring right on the edge of his peak. I mean, just look at his final five years: wins MVP and Finals MVP, then has a down year by finishing third in MVP voting and winning another title, then wins MVP (over Jordan) and leads his team to its third consecutive finals before leaving the series with an injury, then wins another MVP (again over Jordan), and then finishes second in MVP voting to Jordan and drags his team back to the finals (against the now officially crowned Jordan). People can talk about Bird’s ridiculous injuries, but this was even on a level beyond that. We can debate a slight peak-to-peak disadvantage compared to the best three or four years of Hakeem or Bird, or compared to the sustained (but inconsistent) dominance of Shaq, but simpler narratives go a long way when comparing players with somewhat similar resumés. And simply, Magic was a better teammate than Shaq, and was a better postseason performer than Bird, and was a better regular season performer than Hakeem, and had more playoff success than all of them. We can quibble over the numbers, but that does not mean no attention should be given to basic truths like those.

[Speaking of which, the idea of Magic not being a top twelve player is not remotely supported by impact metrics, and dinging him because his last two titles happened to feature a 39/40-year-old Kareem is akin to dismissing Duncan’s first two titles because David Robinson was there.]
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#11 » by HHera187 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:08 pm

Edit my previous vote: from 2017 Curry to 2016.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#12 » by E-Balla » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:44 pm

My ballot for now will be:

1. 76 Dr. J
2. 87 Magic
3. 86 Magic
--------------
4. 63 Oscar

But it might change depending on this conversation because there's one poster here who's sensibilities are extremely close to mine when it comes to judging guys:

Clyde Frazier wrote:Ballot #1 - 87 Magic
Ballot #2 - 76 Dr. J
Ballot #3 - 64 Oscar


So I have a few questions here for you. Why not include 86 Magic if 87 Magic is your #1? Why Magic over Dr. J? How do you feel about Oscar's series against Boston in 64 vs 63. He played way better in 63.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#13 » by E-Balla » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:46 pm

pandrade83 wrote:#3 - #16 Stephen Curry - I get that he had problems in the Finals but his playoff performance in general is a bit underrated & his playoff "issues" didn't come til much later than any of these others.

I've read this a few times and I still don't get what you mean. Mind rephrasing this?
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#14 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:29 pm

There is so little difference between some of these I have great difficulty

Erving 76 -- dominated and did it against Bobby Jones, one of the greatest NBA defenders ever
Magic 87 -- was the glue that held that team together and made that great offense work
Curry 16 -- best individual offensive RS ever, docked for his finals
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#15 » by pandrade83 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:36 pm

E-Balla wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:#3 - #16 Stephen Curry - I get that he had problems in the Finals but his playoff performance in general is a bit underrated & his playoff "issues" didn't come til much later than any of these others.

I've read this a few times and I still don't get what you mean. Mind rephrasing this?


Sure. We’re at the point where you can poke 1-2 major holes in otherwise spectacular years.

The big hole with Steph is, of course the finals where he incurred an injury. Many guys who will start getting looks either didn’t make it to the finals period - or - had inferior overall seasons.

Furthermore, I think Steph’s playoff performances have became pretty underrated and I’m not sure why he seems to be getting dinged for it.

Note: sent from phone while traveling.
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#16 » by E-Balla » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:23 pm

pandrade83 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:#3 - #16 Stephen Curry - I get that he had problems in the Finals but his playoff performance in general is a bit underrated & his playoff "issues" didn't come til much later than any of these others.

I've read this a few times and I still don't get what you mean. Mind rephrasing this?


Sure. We’re at the point where you can poke 1-2 major holes in otherwise spectacular years.

The big hole with Steph is, of course the finals where he incurred an injury. Many guys who will start getting looks either didn’t make it to the finals period - or - had inferior overall seasons.

Furthermore, I think Steph’s playoff performances have became pretty underrated and I’m not sure why he seems to be getting dinged for it.

Note: sent from phone while traveling.

If you have time I want to hear this argument. I've heard plenty of people saying he was hurt or that it shouldn't be taken as a big deal that he played bad, but I've never the argument that he played well.
euroleague
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#17 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:02 pm

Curry had a far larger impact on defense than any of the other candidates remaining - not really that close. If you look at what he did to defenses, and how they contorted themselves especially to defend him, you can see his impact transcend his stats. Similar to when Shaq had a low scoring game, but all his teammates went off because of how he contorted defenses. Curry creates literal mismatches just by taking a screen. Although by his standards of that year he played badly, there's no question that Draymond was hugely benefitting from the spacing he provided.

When Klay went out vs Toronto, and when Klay wasn't hitting, the spacing went away - and Draymond became useless offensively. With Curry, teams have to switch EVERY SINGLE SCREEN. That empowers Draymond to huge extents when multiple players have to hug the 3 point line.

Draymond's ORTG when Klay was injured/having a bad game (excepting game 5 with KD):
Game 1: 86
Game 3: 98
Game 7: 93

The amount of credit Draymond gets for Curry's impact is truly absurd. Draymond is a good player, but he's more Ben Wallace than he is Pippen.

In Draymond's line-up finder, it quickly becomes obvious that all of his good line-ups have Curry in it.

For 2016:
Curry's 24th and 25th best didn't have Klay. His 17th and 32nd best didn't have Draymond.
Draymond didn't have any in the top 50 without Curry. His 6th, 24th, and 25th best didn't have Klay.
Klay's 42nd and 49th best didn't have Curry. His 42nd and 49th best didn't have Draymond.

From this, we can see Klay played best with both of them in. Draymond needed Curry in 2016, but not Klay (Barnes may be a factor here). Curry had great +- lineups without either of them, with 3 in his top 25.

Curry being the engine behind that 16 team is pretty obvious. Klay was capable of going off, such as in game 6 against OKC, and Draymond did at times as well, but without Curry they were struggling against a bad 8th seed in Houston. Even with an injured Curry, they beat the KD/WB OKC Thunder.

My rankings.

1. Curry 16
2. Magic 87
3. Erving 76
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#18 » by Joey Wheeler » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:02 pm

1-Magic 1987
2-Magic 1990
3-Magic 1991

Already explained. If Magic is in, I think all the truly transcedent guys will be in and it'll be time to start considering "merely" great players. There are about ~20 guys below the ones already in + Magic that for me have no super meaningful separation. Among currently active players, that means Kawhi, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Harden...
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#19 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:14 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:There are about ~20 guys below the ones already in + Magic that for me have no super meaningful separation. Among currently active players, that means Kawhi, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Harden...


You don't think there's meaningful separation between KD/Curry and AD or Westbrook/
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Re: Peaks project update: #10 

Post#20 » by Colbinii » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:24 pm

euroleague wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:There are about ~20 guys below the ones already in + Magic that for me have no super meaningful separation. Among currently active players, that means Kawhi, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Harden...


You don't think there's meaningful separation between KD/Curry and AD or Westbrook/


I'm surprised you aren't high on 2017 Westbrook considering you are high on 1962 Wilt.

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