DeMar DeRozan is underrated all of a sudden

[dhsilv2]

Danny Green was way ahead of Kawhi Leonard this year in RPM, how do you explain that? There are countless examples like that every season.

That one is obvious as hell, lol. You'll consistently see 3 and D players doing well on RPM because they are extremely valuable players. The two players however have different roles on the court and we have to evaluate RPM within that context. You cannot simply say a player has a higher or lower RPM or any metric without first apply context to the role and player. Take a few hours and really study the metric and come back with questions, maybe make a thread to ask people who understand stats and can help you get a better grasp on all the information we have.

FYI in case you're confused, Leonard was not an MVP level player in the regular season this year.

Klay Thompson was around 170th place in RPM, and he is a prototypical 3 and D player. Khris Middleton and Malcolm Brogdon were outside of top 50, behind George Hill and Bledsoe. Context matters, as you say, so these raw stats don't mean anything, they just serve as a distraction and food for bias.

Again you clearly have never put ANY effort into understand these metrics and as a result there's little reason to discuss this with you. Please take the time to read up on the topic, there are hundreds of threads on these forums that can help you learn more.

FYI Klay isn't a good defender and never has been. The D part is missing there.

[dakomish23]

If if I was a win now team and if the rumors of SAS looking to move him were true, I’d trade for him. He’s not perfect, but he will help a win now team win games.

[dhsilv2]

If if I was a win now team and if the rumors of SAS looking to move him were true, I’d trade for him. He’s not perfect, but he will help a win now team win games.

I could see a case to add him to the jazz where shot creation has been an issue. I can't see another team where his play would really make them better...and they're in a win now situation. Honestly, he's fine on the spurs as they seem to have found a way to use his talents, but he's not taking them any further than last year.

[XxIronChainzxX]

He led the Raptors to conference finals, and he led them to best regular season record last season. He is top 20, just nowhere near someone like Kawhi.

They beat two teams that were probably as good as the Clippers this season, and that's being generous to PG. The East was a tire fire for a lot of those years.

It was, but Raptors were consistently among the best teams in the east. I'm not saying DeRozan is elite, but let's not disrespect him now. It's easy to forget about him now that we witnessed Kawhi's greatness, but that's somehting you may never see again in Toronto.

I'm not disrespecting him. He was able to give us a fair bit of value in the offensive side in the regular season with his usage. He was also a core part of some of the most humiliating losses in playoffs history, including being swept twice with HCA and once as the #1 seed in the conference. It's a mixed bag, and I'm not really sure I'd call it greatness.

[YogurtProducer]

He led the Raptors to conference finals, and he led them to best regular season record last season. He is top 20, just nowhere near someone like Kawhi.

Kyle Lowry was FAR and away the better player.

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

No it isn’t. Most logical fans always knew who the better and more impactful player was.

Demar was getting benched in important playoff games and Lowry was leading comebacks.

Demar is properly rated now and I’d argue potentially still overrated. He was overrated as **** in Toronto, and is slowly getting to the proper place.

He’s a high usage player with average efficiency, average playmaking, below average defense, and really no part of his game is above average except maybe relying on free throws.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Lowry wasn't more efficient that season, he shot 42.7% from the field, and those are his typical numbers.

It's time you look into the way efficiency is measured in 2019. Pretty clear you're about 10 years behind.

I don't measure it that way, there is value to mid range game.

There's a ton of value when you're good. DeRozan is bad at it. Taking a lot of long 2s =/= being good in the mid range. His efficiency would be above average if he was good at it.

[Scalabrine]

Going from the Raptors to the Spurs will do that to you.

His raw numbers actually took a jump last season and he's always been pretty durable, which he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
This thread just proves that he's underrated if anything.

Averaged 22/6/6 on 48/82 last year. Yeah he doesn't shoot 3's but he is still a very efficient scorer and can pick teams apart in the mid-range. With everyone being so obsessed with advanced stats and fantasy basketball it makes sense that he's underrated, but the guy can still play and make an impact.

Just for fun I'll give you my loosely ranked players:

1.Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Harden
4. Leonard
5. Curry
6. Davis
7. Embiid
8. Jokic
9. George
10. Lillard
11. Towns
12. Irving
13. Gobert
14. Beal
15. Westbrook
16. Walker
17. Butler
18. Vucevic
19. Holiday
20. Doncic
21. Thompson
22. Griffin
23. Mitchell
24. Simmons
25. Aldridge

After that it starts to get into Derozan range. Draymond, Drummond, D'Lo, Middleton, Paul, Booker, Lowry, Conley, Siakam, Fox, Lavine, Randle all could have arguments over DD. I also left out Durant, Oladipo, Wall, and Porzingis because they all suffered pretty serious injuries and I'm not sure how they'll come back. I'd take those 25 guys over him for sure, and after that he's in the next tier of players.

[The_Hater]

Now that he isn't on the Raptors, people forgot about him. He's improved his rebounding and assists and he is still a top 20 player in the league.

More like properly rated, unless someone actually thinks he’s a top 20 player then he’s still being overrated.

Derozan has never been one of the top 20 players in the league, his overall skill set has far too many glaring holes.

[YogurtProducer]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

It's not revisionist history, it's you not knowing what you're talking about. You literally cited PPGZZZZZ as your argument two posts prior. It's like saying Blake Griffin was a similar caliber player as Chris Paul because Blake Griffin scored more! He wasn't, because that's not how it works.

Derozan can go out and get you a bucket when you need one. That's his utility to the team, but on the whole, his numbers have consistently rung hollow throughout his career. Lowry has always been the engine that made Toronto go, and that remained true until the playoffs when Kawhi took over.

Can Demar go and get you a bucket? He’s a very average efficiency player. I’d trust Lowrys playmaking any day to get an easy layup from a big or an open 3 over a Demar fade away long 2 clank

[YogurtProducer]

Going from the Raptors to the Spurs will do that to you.

His raw numbers actually took a jump last season and he's always been pretty durable, which he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
This thread just proves that he's underrated if anything.

Averaged 22/6/6 on 48/82 last year. Yeah he doesn't shoot 3's but he is still a very efficient scorer and can pick teams apart in the mid-range. With everyone being so obsessed with advanced stats and fantasy basketball it makes sense that he's underrated, but the guy can still play and make an impact.

Just for fun I'll give you my loosely ranked players:

1.Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Harden
4. Leonard
5. Curry
6. Davis
7. Embiid
8. Jokic
9. George
10. Lillard
11. Towns
12. Irving
13. Gobert
14. Beal
15. Westbrook
16. Walker
17. Butler
18. Vucevic
19. Holiday
20. Doncic
21. Thompson
22. Griffin
23. Mitchell
24. Simmons
25. Aldridge

After that it starts to get into Derozan range. Draymond, Drummond, D'Lo, Middleton, Paul, Booker, Lowry, Conley, Siakam, Fox, Lavine, Randle all could have arguments over DD. I also left out Durant, Oladipo, Wall, and Porzingis because they all suffered pretty serious injuries and I'm not sure how they'll come back. I'd take those 25 guys over him for sure, and after that he's in the next tier of players.

He is not a very efficienct scorer in any way shape or form. He is below 50% on 2’s and shoots 40% on long 2’s in which he takes over half his shots from. His TS% is only 54

[Johnny Bball]

I don't even think he's a top 30 player. Dude might be top 40. Think stronger arguments can be made for top 50. He's just not a high impact player on either end of the floor. The San Antonio offense was better with him off the floor last season. The San Antonio defense was better with him off the floor last season. He ranked a stupid low 215th in RAPM last season.

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

If he's a top 20/25 player in the league your replacements shouldn't make you 5 points better per 100 possessions as a team period. I fully understand the context. The context is that he's being replaced in lineups and the team is consistently better over the course of 77 games.

The Spurs were a deep sum of their parts team last year. Top players differentiate themselves from that. Derozan didn't. There's a reason the on/off numbers are supported by a bevy of other numbers we have at our disposal.

Having my grandmother play backup centre behind embiid shouldn't make him 30 points better but it does. Context is generally important. Ignore it all in original posts if you want to make him outside top 50 now... I don't really care.

[HeartBreakKid]

Danny Green was way ahead of Kawhi Leonard this year in RPM, how do you explain that? There are countless examples like that every season.

That one is obvious as hell, lol. You'll consistently see 3 and D players doing well on RPM because they are extremely valuable players. The two players however have different roles on the court and we have to evaluate RPM within that context. You cannot simply say a player has a higher or lower RPM or any metric without first apply context to the role and player. Take a few hours and really study the metric and come back with questions, maybe make a thread to ask people who understand stats and can help you get a better grasp on all the information we have.

FYI in case you're confused, Leonard was not an MVP level player in the regular season this year.

Klay Thompson was around 170th place in RPM, and he is a prototypical 3 and D player. Khris Middleton and Malcolm Brogdon were outside of top 50, behind George Hill and Bledsoe. Context matters, as you say, so these raw stats don't mean anything, they just serve as a distraction and food for bias.

None of those players are 3 and D players....I am not sure how anyone can think Eric Bledsoe and Danny Green have the same role on a team.

[dakomish23]

If if I was a win now team and if the rumors of SAS looking to move him were true, I’d trade for him. He’s not perfect, but he will help a win now team win games.

I could see a case to add him to the jazz where shot creation has been an issue. I can't see another team where his play would really make them better...and they're in a win now situation. Honestly, he's fine on the spurs as they seem to have found a way to use his talents, but he's not taking them any further than last year.

I like him on DET or any other team who don't have studs in the backcourt. I think him being the top perimeter guy will maximize his strengths.

He gets a lot of crap, but he's better than a lot of ppl give him credit for.

[mademan]

I don't even think he's a top 30 player. Dude might be top 40. Think stronger arguments can be made for top 50. He's just not a high impact player on either end of the floor. The San Antonio offense was better with him off the floor last season. The San Antonio defense was better with him off the floor last season. He ranked a stupid low 215th in RAPM last season.

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

It's one thing if it was just a one off. But DD has been a net negative player almost every year of his career on (now) 2 different teams. The raps themselves have had a lot of roster turnover during his tenure and he was still almost always a net negative guy. He just doesnt have high impact play.

[mademan]

And ya, dont get it twisted, Lowry has always been the best player and the leader of the team.

[Johnny Bball]

I don't even think he's a top 30 player. Dude might be top 40. Think stronger arguments can be made for top 50. He's just not a high impact player on either end of the floor. The San Antonio offense was better with him off the floor last season. The San Antonio defense was better with him off the floor last season. He ranked a stupid low 215th in RAPM last season.

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

It's one thing if it was just a one off. But DD has been a net negative player almost every year of his career on (now) 2 different teams. The raps themselves have had a lot of roster turnover during his tenure and he was still almost always a net negative guy. He just doesnt have high impact play.

What were the similarities in the two teams. I just roll my eyes when I read the term net negative these days. No context either.

[HeartBreakKid]

Going from the Raptors to the Spurs will do that to you.

His raw numbers actually took a jump last season and he's always been pretty durable, which he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
This thread just proves that he's underrated if anything.

Averaged 22/6/6 on 48/82 last year. Yeah he doesn't shoot 3's but he is still a very efficient scorer and can pick teams apart in the mid-range. With everyone being so obsessed with advanced stats and fantasy basketball it makes sense that he's underrated, but the guy can still play and make an impact.

Just for fun I'll give you my loosely ranked players:

1.Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Harden
4. Leonard
5. Curry
6. Davis
7. Embiid
8. Jokic
9. George
10. Lillard
11. Towns
12. Irving
13. Gobert
14. Beal
15. Westbrook
16. Walker
17. Butler
18. Vucevic
19. Holiday
20. Doncic
21. Thompson
22. Griffin
23. Mitchell
24. Simmons
25. Aldridge

After that it starts to get into Derozan range. Draymond, Drummond, D'Lo, Middleton, Paul, Booker, Lowry, Conley, Siakam, Fox, Lavine, Randle all could have arguments over DD. I also left out Durant, Oladipo, Wall, and Porzingis because they all suffered pretty serious injuries and I'm not sure how they'll come back. I'd take those 25 guys over him for sure, and after that he's in the next tier of players.

He objectively is not. he was below average in efficiency this year, and has never been above average in his entire career.

Demar DeRozan cannot pick teams apart with his mid range game. He isn't good enough from mid range to do that, hence why he has never dominated any teams in the post season. Not sure why people think that because a player takes mid range shots that means he is amazing at them. DeMar DeRozan is nowhere near good enough from taking his contested long 2s to make up for his weaknesses or lack of eliteness in other parts of his scoring game.

This is objectively true, and has nothing to do with advance analytics. It is common sense, really.

I mean if you're seriously going into the playoffs picking Demar DeRozan over Draymond Green, then you really need to look at how you evaluate basketball players, you're basically judging players the same way an 11 year old would.

[magicman1978]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

Yeah, you're wrong. Net rating for the 2014-2018 playoffs for both players:

Derozan
2014 - negative 6.6
2015 - negative 7.9
2016 - negative 4.8
2017 - negative 13.2
2018 - negative 19.9
(negative 23.1 this year with the Spurs, by far the worst on the team)

Lowry
2014 - +10.4
2015 - +15.5
2016 - +24.8
2017 - +8.9
2018 - +2.4

This is consistent across every season. Lowry clearly had more impact and it's not even close.

[cellphonecamera]

Going from the Raptors to the Spurs will do that to you.

His raw numbers actually took a jump last season and he's always been pretty durable, which he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
This thread just proves that he's underrated if anything.

Averaged 22/6/6 on 48/82 last year. Yeah he doesn't shoot 3's but he is still a very efficient scorer and can pick teams apart in the mid-range. With everyone being so obsessed with advanced stats and fantasy basketball it makes sense that he's underrated, but the guy can still play and make an impact.

Just for fun I'll give you my loosely ranked players:

1.Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Harden
4. Leonard
5. Curry
6. Davis
7. Embiid
8. Jokic
9. George
10. Lillard
11. Towns
12. Irving
13. Gobert
14. Beal
15. Westbrook
16. Walker
17. Butler
18. Vucevic
19. Holiday
20. Doncic
21. Thompson
22. Griffin
23. Mitchell
24. Simmons
25. Aldridge

After that it starts to get into Derozan range. Draymond, Drummond, D'Lo, Middleton, Paul, Booker, Lowry, Conley, Siakam, Fox, Lavine, Randle all could have arguments over DD. I also left out Durant, Oladipo, Wall, and Porzingis because they all suffered pretty serious injuries and I'm not sure how they'll come back. I'd take those 25 guys over him for sure, and after that he's in the next tier of players.

I stopped reading your list after you put overrated Irving over Westbrook.

[mademan]

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

It's one thing if it was just a one off. But DD has been a net negative player almost every year of his career on (now) 2 different teams. The raps themselves have had a lot of roster turnover during his tenure and he was still almost always a net negative guy. He just doesnt have high impact play.

What were the similarities in the two teams. I just roll my eyes when I read the term net negative these days. No context either.

Regardless of what you think of net ratings, almost always having the team be better when youre on the bench is absolutely telling. Especially when the other star on the team (Lowry) is a huge net positive almost every year and is top 10 in the league (amongst guys with reasonable minutes)