DeMar DeRozan is underrated all of a sudden

[Chinook]

I don't disagree. I think we're just talking past each other. I am looking at it from the point of view of building a real title contender. And I favour having a team with all the right pieces ready to go that you can just bring a star right into. The Raptors won a title with Kawhi because they had a ready-made title team supporting cast that they could just put around him. To me, finding those guys takes priority over finding a guy like DeRozan. To me, that is why those guys are more valuable. Teams have had an MVP level guy - sometimes two guys! - and lost a title on the back of their supporting cast.

Teams haven't won a title despite having no stars, though. Even a team like the Piston doesn't count there. The guys they had weren't superstar iso scorers, but they weren't all catch-and-shoot role-players. I'm not trying to take anything away from Toronto's title, but I don't think a reasonable strategy is to eschew stars in hopes that one just falls into your lap. Even Toronto didn't do that.

You argue the role-players on the team were more valuable than DeRozan. I think this is incorrect. Those guys got to learn to be great role-players with DeRozan and just continued doing that with a significantly better player. The Raptors had the best bench two years ago, I believe. Plus, does Masai make that same trade if Toronto is a bottom-half-of-the-bracket or non-playoff team for the past few seasons because they were just a good crew with no stars (like Miami)? I don't think so.

I think building a great core and then adding that touch of superstardom is a good strategy. I want the Spurs to make a run at that either next summer or in 2021. But I wouldn't want them to trade DeRozan right now to facilitate that. Winning games right now makes the Spurs a more attractive team, and it perpetuates the winning culture Tim, Manu, Tony and Kawhi "grew up" in. When they are ready to fly, then you can let him go. But even if that's the way it happens, DeRozan's value will be clear. I'd love a Robert Covington on the team now to compliment DeRozan and Aldridge. But I can't reasonably believe the team would be better off with him instead of DeRozan right now.

[johanliebert]

I don't think that people actually realize how many players are in the league when they call certain guys top 10 or top 20. He is no way near a top 20 player

He was on the 2nd all nba team just last year.

you're telling me that guy isnt a top 20 player?

you guys really talk to talk on this site.

[Chinook]

DeMar DeRozan has been part of 3 of the most humiliating sweeps in NBA history and he's been pretty bad in them, including to sweeps with HCA and one sweep as the #1 seed. I'm honestly not convinced that this is better than being in a perennial 7th seed.

Unless that seventh seed wins series consistently, it is.

But more than that, it again bothers me that he gets credit for what the whole team accomplished. Especially in a debate about his value, where the counter-argument is that he was no more of a contributor to this success than the other high end role players on the team.

I believe that counter-argument is wrong. That's really the point of this branch of the thread. High-end role-players need stars to make it to the playoffs. Nothing against guys like Van Fleet, but they aren't taking a team to a ECF or ECSF sweep because they aren't getting to the playoffs as their team's best player.

Again, none of this is to devalue the ability of a guy like DD who can be the #1 option at decent efficiency. And this is not to take away the real strides he made in his game. In 2013/2014 he was awful and got Wiggins level kid gloves to grow his game, which to his credit he did. I have tremendous personal respect for DD for what he has done in his career.

But there are limits to his game. They're real. And in a debate about his value, let's not discount them.

I don't think anyone is really discounting his limits. I do think folks are overstating how much those limitations hold him back in comparison to role-players. I really, really don't like how DeRozan melts down if he doesn't get calls. That should have been cleared up when he was in school, or at least as a young NBA player. It's strange and twisted to see a grown man throw a ball at a ref in a playoff game, and if SA does want to move him, it's for that more than anything else. I certainly don't have much confidence in the team winning a title so long as that attitude is so awful.

[XxIronChainzxX]

I don't disagree. I think we're just talking past each other. I am looking at it from the point of view of building a real title contender. And I favour having a team with all the right pieces ready to go that you can just bring a star right into. The Raptors won a title with Kawhi because they had a ready-made title team supporting cast that they could just put around him. To me, finding those guys takes priority over finding a guy like DeRozan. To me, that is why those guys are more valuable. Teams have had an MVP level guy - sometimes two guys! - and lost a title on the back of their supporting cast.

Teams haven't won a title despite having no stars, though. Even a team like the Piston doesn't count there. The guys they had weren't superstar iso scorers, but they weren't all catch-and-shoot role-players. I'm not trying to take anything away from Toronto's title, but I don't think a reasonable strategy is to eschew stars in hopes that one just falls into your lap. Even Toronto didn't do that.

You argue the role-players on the team were more valuable than DeRozan. I think this is incorrect. Those guys got to learn to be great role-players with DeRozan and just continued doing that with a significantly better player. The Raptors had the best bench two years ago, I believe. Plus, does Masai make that same trade if Toronto is a bottom-half-of-the-bracket or non-playoff team for the past few seasons because they were just a good crew with no stars (like Miami)? I don't think so.

I think building a great core and then adding that touch of superstardom is a good strategy. I want the Spurs to make a run at that either next summer or in 2021. But I wouldn't want them to trade DeRozan right now to facilitate that. Winning games right now makes the Spurs a more attractive team, and it perpetuates the winning culture Tim, Manu, Tony and Kawhi "grew up" in. When they are ready to fly, then you can let him go. But even if that's the way it happens, DeRozan's value will be clear. I'd love a Robert Covington on the team now to compliment DeRozan and Aldridge. But I can't reasonably believe the team would be better off with him instead of DeRozan right now.

Again, I don't actually think we disagree. Because I don't practically take issue with any of the individual statements you've made save and expect for the ultimate value judgment (and I mean that literally).

Like I said to start with: I think that when people use the word "value" it is implied that they mean "to a contender" and in that scenario, DD is properly rated.

I don't think DD was more valuable than others on the team, but I do think he's not uniquely more valuable and that it is unfair to give him credit for the success of the team.

Toronto doesn't win 59 games without that bench. They've had deep bench talent for years.

The other thing that's underrated here is that DD had years and years of opportunities to learn as a first option. He was very much getting the same type of rope as Wiggins. Except he's not trash so he actually developed his game.

But DeRozan can't get a team over the hump. He can't make then a contender. And if he didn't already have a great core of role players around him he doesn't get you to the playoffs.

[Clay Davis]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

It's not man. Lots of people on the Raps board always thought Lowry was the best player on the team since he got the starting position. We only made a serious run for the play-offs when Lowry was allowed to lead the team.

Derozan is a top 20-30 player and in the top 10 at his position (I put Jimmy, Klay, CJ, Harden, Beal, Oladipo over him). One of the best midrange scorers in the league and he was actually a pretty good distributor last year. He's going to be a dope secondary ball handler for the Spurs this year, probably the best one they've had since prime Manu.

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It's like saying that Ivica Zubac is the best 7 foot 1 center on Lakers since Shaq.
While maybe true, it's still feels insulting to put Zubac in the same conversation as Shaq or Derozan in the same conversation as Manu.

I'm talking about the skill-set of a 4x all-star, 2x all-NBA player, not a rotation player. The only insult in this conversation is the notification I got from seeing this crappy take of a reply.

[Sixerscan]

You’re largely making a good point here, but I think this also sort missed the point that not many teams would want Derozan to be their best player, and therefore his trade value is limited. A contender wouldn’t want him to be their best player, and a rebuilding team would probably rather just build organically. There just aren’t many teams anymore that want to trade a lot for a 30 year old who will carry them to the 7 seed. It would have to be another San Antonio situation, maybe a team like Detroit where he wouldn’t be the best player but seems to fit fine with Griffin.

That’s seems relevant when we are talking “value”.

Put it this way, I’m pretty confident the Timberwolves could get a first round pick for Covington. The Spurs probably could for Derozan, but would they really get that much more than that?

Please, let's don't get into the T&T concept of "value". I really don't like it, and it's not we had been talking about. I think the rest of what you said makes some sense, but it also misses some important facts. DeRozan hasn't been on a train of seventh-seeds. There's zero reason to argue he's a treadmill player in that regard. If you're seriously telling me most teams would rather tank than have the DeRozan Raptors' trajectory over DeMar's last five years there, we'll just have to disagree.

I'm confident that most teams believe DeRozan is a better straight-up player than Covington. Maybe someone like Morey might disagree. Teams might not feel confident in winning a title with DeMar as the best player (and I don't either), but don't think anyone thinks they can "build around" Robert Covington.

I didn’t say he’s been on a bunch of 7 seeds. I’m saying the teams that would find his “not missing the playoffs” track record you discussed attractive are the teams that are struggling to make the playoffs.

If you don’t want to discuss his value in terms of how much teams would trade for him, fine, but it seems pretty relevant to me. The reason why he might be “underrated” is that he’s just not on the radar of more than half the league/its fan bases because he’s just not a fit for what they want to do.

[YogurtProducer]

Raptors fans always knew Lowry was better. Just because you ignored us doesn’t mean we did.

Hot take saying the raptors with an older Lowry Gasol and Ibakamight be worse

Pretty much all serious basketball fans knew that. Only people who think Skip Bayless makes good points thought otherwise.

I disagree, Lowry wasn't always better than DeMar. Lowry had his fair share of totally **** playoff performances as well, including this past year without DeMar and with Kawhi.

But I'm not really here to argue Lowry vs DeMar anymore

PS I'm a basketball fan and not much of a skip Bayless fan

Comparing Lowry and Demars playoff performances isn’t gonna help you out. Whereas Demar was constantly

Demar TO Career: 22/4/3 on 49.7TS% (AWFUL) with bad defense and an on/off split where we were better with him sitting by a lot.

Lowry TO Career: 17/5/6 on 55.3TS% (Decent) with amazing defense and an incredible on/off split in which the team fell apart whenever he hit the bench, including this past playoff run with Kawhi. Lowrys “failures” have been 4 games against Washington in which he was injured, and 20 games in an ECF where he again was hurt but still had a decent post season. The last 3 years he’s been really **** good putting up the same numbers on nearly or above 60TS%.

But you’ll probably point to 1 zero point game and determine that’s more important than the dozens of other good games and areas in which he’s been great or elite I

[YogurtProducer]

I don't disagree. I think we're just talking past each other. I am looking at it from the point of view of building a real title contender. And I favour having a team with all the right pieces ready to go that you can just bring a star right into. The Raptors won a title with Kawhi because they had a ready-made title team supporting cast that they could just put around him. To me, finding those guys takes priority over finding a guy like DeRozan. To me, that is why those guys are more valuable. Teams have had an MVP level guy - sometimes two guys! - and lost a title on the back of their supporting cast.

Teams haven't won a title despite having no stars, though. Even a team like the Piston doesn't count there. The guys they had weren't superstar iso scorers, but they weren't all catch-and-shoot role-players. I'm not trying to take anything away from Toronto's title, but I don't think a reasonable strategy is to eschew stars in hopes that one just falls into your lap. Even Toronto didn't do that.

You argue the role-players on the team were more valuable than DeRozan. I think this is incorrect. Those guys got to learn to be great role-players with DeRozan and just continued doing that with a significantly better player. The Raptors had the best bench two years ago, I believe. Plus, does Masai make that same trade if Toronto is a bottom-half-of-the-bracket or non-playoff team for the past few seasons because they were just a good crew with no stars (like Miami)? I don't think so.

I think building a great core and then adding that touch of superstardom is a good strategy. I want the Spurs to make a run at that either next summer or in 2021. But I wouldn't want them to trade DeRozan right now to facilitate that. Winning games right now makes the Spurs a more attractive team, and it perpetuates the winning culture Tim, Manu, Tony and Kawhi "grew up" in. When they are ready to fly, then you can let him go. But even if that's the way it happens, DeRozan's value will be clear. I'd love a Robert Covington on the team now to compliment DeRozan and Aldridge. But I can't reasonably believe the team would be better off with him instead of DeRozan right now.

Well the raptors were better a lot of the time with Norman Powell over Demar, I would bet the Spurs would be better with Covington over Demar. In fact, having Covington there and letting the younger guards take over the 1/2 spots would likely be preferable.

Demar is just not good. He’s questionably a good offensive player, maybe, (but I’d argue he is not) but he is without a doubt a terrible defender. All around he’s like, top 50 talented but impact wise I would take a looooot of guys before him for this reason:

You’ll never win with Demar as a 1 or 2 option; he simply is to inefficient for that role. You’ll never win with Demar as a 3-5 option because he brings 0 qualities you need from those guys namely spacing, and defense.

[Harry Garris]

He's not underrated he's just unable to play as well as he does during the regular season during the playoffs when the defense gets better. He's always been a good regular season player.

Weird time to say this considering last year was the best playoff performance of his career, and his playoff numbers were arguably better than his regular season numbers.

This past year was by far the best playoff series of his career and it was still a resounding meh. He was fairly efficient offensively to his credit, but he's still a ball stopper and his isos are never going to be as efficient as the Spurs offense can be when the ball's moving around. He also is a big zero on defense and really hurt his team on that end of the floor.

[iggymcfrack]

I don't think that people actually realize how many players are in the league when they call certain guys top 10 or top 20. He is no way near a top 20 player

He was on the 2nd all nba team just last year.

you're telling me that guy isnt a top 20 player?

you guys really talk to talk on this site.

He’s not a top 100 player. The teams he’s played for have been better with him on the bench than on the floor 7 seasons in a row. In the playoffs, his teams have been better with him on the bench than on the floor all 6 seasons he’s been in the league and by an average of 12 points per 48 minutes. That’s way too many seasons to be a fluke, especially since other starters that played with him on the same team (i.e. Lowry) managed to be consistently positive over the same span.

You’re giving him credit for winning, but his teams literally win much more when he doesn’t play. Spurs were 4-1 without Derozan last year. Raptors were 29-18 when he didn’t suit up over his 9 years there. They won in spite of him, not because of him. If he was really as good as his reputation, it would show up in the team actually performing better when he plays.

[cellphonecamera]

Lmfao what a troll, calling DeRozan a not top 100 player.

[RoyceDa59]

Just not a fan of his game. Seems like he needs to work way too hard for his points, doesn’t read plays well on defence, can’t spread the floor with long ball and isn’t a great facilitator. He’s a good iso mid-range and slashing scorer, but brings very little in the other aspects of the game. It’s not for a lack of effort, I think it’s due to a lack of awareness/ability.

Great guy, but too many holes in his game.


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[Bigfactsstackz]

Just not a fan of his game. Seems like he needs to work way too hard for his points, doesn’t read plays well on defence, can’t spread the floor with long ball and isn’t a great facilitator. He’s a good iso mid-range and slashing scorer, but brings very little in the other aspects of the game. It’s not for a lack of effort, I think it’s due to a lack of awareness/ability.

Great guy, but too many holes in his game.


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He’s a pretty good facilitator actually.

[Senbonzakura]

He's not underrated he's just unable to play as well as he does during the regular season during the playoffs when the defense gets better. He's always been a good regular season player.

Weird time to say this considering last year was the best playoff performance of his career, and his playoff numbers were arguably better than his regular season numbers.

This past year was by far the best playoff series of his career and it was still a resounding meh. He was fairly efficient offensively to his credit, but he's still a ball stopper and his isos are never going to be as efficient as the Spurs offense can be when the ball's moving around. He also is a big zero on defense and really hurt his team on that end of the floor.

Your point was that he's unable to play as well as he does during the regular season. He just did that in these last playoffs.

[iggymcfrack]

Weird time to say this considering last year was the best playoff performance of his career, and his playoff numbers were arguably better than his regular season numbers.

This past year was by far the best playoff series of his career and it was still a resounding meh. He was fairly efficient offensively to his credit, but he's still a ball stopper and his isos are never going to be as efficient as the Spurs offense can be when the ball's moving around. He also is a big zero on defense and really hurt his team on that end of the floor.

Your point was that he's unable to play as well as he does during the regular season. He just did that in these last playoffs.

2019 playoffs
Spurs with Derozan on floor: -8.7
Spurs with Derozan on bench: +17.1

[sule]

If I have the time, I will bring up all the previous Raptor playoff threads where the majority of this board called him 'DeFrozen', and rightly so.

Dude is a great regular season scorer. He just isn't the same in the post season -- especially in the weak East in the past.

He played well on good percentages with the Spurs this year. Suggests to me that, more than anything, it was coaching that was the real problem.

[XxIronChainzxX]

If I have the time, I will bring up all the previous Raptor playoff threads where the majority of this board called him 'DeFrozen', and rightly so.

Dude is a great regular season scorer. He just isn't the same in the post season -- especially in the weak East in the past.

He played well on good percentages with the Spurs this year. Suggests to me that, more than anything, it was coaching that was the real problem.

I'm not sure I agree. He was all over the place in the series. Very streaky shooting. And while he wasn't the only culprit, his cold shooting extended to game 7. Over the entire series he was OK, but IMO that inconsistency is part of the problem.

More than that, though, I'm not convinced that his performance against Denver is actually a sign of growth. He's had good playoff series with the Raptors too - once we got past that trainwreck of a series in Indiana and Miami he was IIRC good against Cleveland. He was fine overall vs. Milwaukee and Washington (the second time).

This is not to say that I think DeRozan was bad in the Denver series - at least not by his regular season standards.

[Sulico]

It's not man. Lots of people on the Raps board always thought Lowry was the best player on the team since he got the starting position. We only made a serious run for the play-offs when Lowry was allowed to lead the team.

Derozan is a top 20-30 player and in the top 10 at his position (I put Jimmy, Klay, CJ, Harden, Beal, Oladipo over him). One of the best midrange scorers in the league and he was actually a pretty good distributor last year. He's going to be a dope secondary ball handler for the Spurs this year, probably the best one they've had since prime Manu.

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It's like saying that Ivica Zubac is the best 7 foot 1 center on Lakers since Shaq.
While maybe true, it's still feels insulting to put Zubac in the same conversation as Shaq or Derozan in the same conversation as Manu.

I'm talking about the skill-set of a 4x all-star, 2x all-NBA player, not a rotation player. The only insult in this conversation is the notification I got from seeing this crappy take of a reply.

Listing popularity contest awards in the conversation about skill, and then talking about crappy takes is ironic.
Yes, dumb people, who don't know how to evaluate talent exist in the media, among team staff and especially fans, as evident from your previous post. Thats how players like Derozan get this awards.
But make no mistake, skill wise, gap between Derozan and all-time great like Ginobili is absolutely huge.

[Zombiesonics]

To say derozan isnt a top 20 player is asinine. OP didnt say nothing outlandish.

He isn't close to being a top 20 player right now. The guy cant guard his position, so he slides to the 3 where there are a ton of better starting options.

[Clay Davis]

It's like saying that Ivica Zubac is the best 7 foot 1 center on Lakers since Shaq.
While maybe true, it's still feels insulting to put Zubac in the same conversation as Shaq or Derozan in the same conversation as Manu.

I'm talking about the skill-set of a 4x all-star, 2x all-NBA player, not a rotation player. The only insult in this conversation is the notification I got from seeing this crappy take of a reply.

Listing popularity contest awards in the conversation about skill, and then talking about crappy takes is ironic.
Yes, dumb people, who don't know how to evaluate talent exist in the media, among team staff and especially fans, as evident from your previous post. Thats how players like Derozan get this awards.
But make no mistake, skill wise, gap between Derozan and all-time great like Ginobili is absolutely huge.

Sorry, but it's straight up disparaging to look at someone's achievements (all-star, all-NBA, leading scorer on multiple teams that finished top 3 in a conference) then compare them with a sixth man who was lucky enough to have played with the best PF of all time and the best coach of all time and say that one isn't even in the same conversation as another. There's cynicism and then there's straight-up delusional idiocy.

If you don't think that Derozans skill-set is valuable and highly developed, if you didn't see him develop his distributing skills over the course of a season and lead his team into the play off race, and then insinuate he belongs to the Ivica Zubac-tier of all players, then I'm not sure why anyone but someone taking a crap (me at the moment. This Chinese food from last night just hit) would even dignify your demonstrated idiocy with a response.

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