Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[montestewart]

Even in irony, echoing president trump’s words somehow brings the discourse down. Rather than saying « go back to whatever ******** non-Northern European, non-Socialist country your race comes from, » let’s try setting a better example than our president can.

Da1, there are more registered Democrats than registered Republicans in this country. They are not all ultra left.

[TGW]

if you don't like it you can go back to india

yea you 2 are really classy and funny. Maybe I'll go back once my money giving out liberal handouts runs out.

The Left Slogan:

Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? So why do red states take more federal money (by far) than blue states? Blue states contribute way more tax revenue than red states and essentially subsidize the craptastically poor, flyover states that republican voters live in.





Red states would cease to exist if it wasn't for tax revenue from blue states, and social welfare. It's sad that a majority of republican voters get tricked into voting for that horrible party. The only reason to vote republican is if you're rich (like over a mil in assets) or a diehard religious or gun fanatic. Other than that, regular people shouldn't even consider voting for an R.

[daoneandonly]

yea you 2 are really classy and funny. Maybe I'll go back once my money giving out liberal handouts runs out.

The Left Slogan:

Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands Outt, Give Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? So why do red states take more federal money (by far) than blue states? Blue states contribute way more tax revenue than red states and essentially subsidize the craptastically poor, flyover states that republican voters live in.





Red states would cease to exist if it wasn't for tax revenue from blue states, and social welfare. It's sad that a majority of republican voters get tricked into voting for that horrible party. The only reason to vote republican is if you're rich (like over a mil in assets) or a diehard religious or gun fanatic. Other than that, regular people shouldn't even consider voting for an R.

Or if you just want a fair and just tax system such as a flat tax system, not a progressive tax system that favors some over others. If there's a party that's in line with that, and also pro life, please feel free to point me to them, I'll gladly join the team.

[payitforward]

The racist pos in the WH doesn't even understand that Cummings doesn't represent Baltimore; he represents the State of Maryland in the US House of Representatives. He's not the Mayor of Baltimore, for God's sakes. He has no control over anything that happens in Baltimore. Regardless of the obvious racism in his attacks, the pos doesn't even seem to understand how states and cities are run in the United States. HE'S A F'ING IDIOT!!!

Not to mention his attacks on Baltimore are completely outrageous and un-American - regardless of whether or not his attacks on Cummings are - and they are.

There are so many episodes like this - each one on its own is not enough to impeach - but combined... I want the moron out of the WH, I want him out of my country... NOW. Get Trump the f out!!! How's that for a hat slogan.

How is it outrageous though?

#2 in murder, #1 in robbery, #7 in aggravated assault

That's not heavy in crime?

Hey jackass -- any reason you didn't respond to my post? Too hard? You'd actually have to think?

If you use racist language it suggests that you are supportive of racism, maybe that you are indeed a racist.

Do you even know what racism is? Where its origins lie? Or do you just think that everything is just "left" (whatever that means) or "right" (which means absolutely nothing any more)?

Or, another question, do you know what Fascism is? Are you a supporter of Fascism? Does it matter to you that you support someone who constitutes a serious threat to bring Fascism to this country?

[pancakes3]

an aside, rankings are also relative and make no dispositive/declarative findings on the gross/overall rates of crime with respect to "infestation," which again, is a problematic descriptor.

honestly i don't mind the partisanship as much as i mind the intellectual dishonesty with which debates are conducted.

[TGW]

I saw a clip where some Trump dingbat claimed (lied) that Trump sent $16B to Baltimore (it was a lot less), but it was for more police and jails.

Wow...such innovative thinking in combating crime.

The last thing the people of Baltimore need is a better funded corrupt Baltimore police force. They need better schools and a job program. Not more money for jails and officers.

[dobrojim]

Or if you just want a fair and just tax system such as a flat tax system, not a progressive tax system that favors some over others. If there's a party that's in line with that, and also pro life, please feel free to point me to them, I'll gladly join the team.

This appears to me to be exactly what 'cakes is talking about when he mentions intellectual dishonesty.

This simple idea that everyone should pay at the same rate is arguably neither fair nor just.
It's been discussed in this thread many times I'm pretty sure.

Rather than look at and truly think about the general implications of what is shown in these
data, that red states are being subsidized by blue states, you claim, without evidence,
that it's all because we don't have a flat tax. Actually I suspect a flat tax would make
this situation, of blue subsidizing red, even more unbalanced than it currently is.

But maybe the worst intellectual dishonesty of all is claiming that a fetus is morally the same
as a baby.

Or maybe it's claiming that the Right believes more in 'freedom' than the Left, especially when they
make claims of moral equivalency of fetuses and babies

Finally, it's laughable for anyone to claim SD was banned because he was a righty.
I don't believe anyone ever posted more actual fake news than that guy.

[daoneandonly]

I saw a clip where some Trump dingbat claimed (lied) that Trump sent $16B to Baltimore (it was a lot less), but it was for more police and jails.

Wow...such innovative thinking in combating crime.

The last thing the people of Baltimore need is a better funded corrupt Baltimore police force. They need better schools and a job program. Not more money for jails and officers.

Maybe they'd have better jobs if people didn't fear walking to the cars or going to get a quick bite for lunch while they work there. The #1 reason I left that job, it was by far and away the most enjoyable work I got to do, had more friends there than any other job, good bonuses at times. But none of that means a thing when again, on a weekly basis you're harassed on the street, hit for for money on a daily basis, and see clear criminal activity within an eye shot. Ladies and gentlemen, Baltimore

[daoneandonly]

Or if you just want a fair and just tax system such as a flat tax system, not a progressive tax system that favors some over others. If there's a party that's in line with that, and also pro life, please feel free to point me to them, I'll gladly join the team.

This appears to me to be exactly what 'cakes is talking about when he mentions intellectual dishonesty.

This simple idea that everyone should pay at the same rate is arguably neither fair nor just.
It's been discussed in this thread many times I'm pretty sure.

Rather than look at and truly think about the general implications of what is shown in these
data, that red states are being subsidized by blue states, you claim, without evidence,
that it's all because we don't have a flat tax. Actually I suspect a flat tax would make
this situation, of blue subsidizing red, even more unbalanced than it currently is.

But maybe the worst intellectual dishonesty of all is claiming that a fetus is morally the same
as a baby.

Or maybe it's claiming that the Right believes more in 'freedom' than the Left, especially when they
make claims of moral equivalency of fetuses and babies

Finally, it's laughable for anyone to claim SD was banned because he was a righty.
I don't believe anyone ever posted more actual fake news than that guy.

It hasn't been explained in any way that proves the progressive tax system is better. Everyone should pay the same rate, I am not better than you, you are not better than point, point is not better than dck, dck is not better than ruz, ruz is not better than monte. We're all the same, we all make what we make, and we should all pay the same % of what we make for the services we share. Despite the fact that some of us will never use many of those very services. You can argue with it any which way, same % is fair no matter how you slice it.

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

[daoneandonly]

The racist pos in the WH doesn't even understand that Cummings doesn't represent Baltimore; he represents the State of Maryland in the US House of Representatives. He's not the Mayor of Baltimore, for God's sakes. He has no control over anything that happens in Baltimore. Regardless of the obvious racism in his attacks, the pos doesn't even seem to understand how states and cities are run in the United States. HE'S A F'ING IDIOT!!!

Not to mention his attacks on Baltimore are completely outrageous and un-American - regardless of whether or not his attacks on Cummings are - and they are.

There are so many episodes like this - each one on its own is not enough to impeach - but combined... I want the moron out of the WH, I want him out of my country... NOW. Get Trump the f out!!! How's that for a hat slogan.

How is it outrageous though?

#2 in murder, #1 in robbery, #7 in aggravated assault

That's not heavy in crime?

Hey jackass -- any reason you didn't respond to my post? Too hard? You'd actually have to think?

If you use racist language it suggests that you are supportive of racism, maybe that you are indeed a racist.

Do you even know what racism is? Where its origins lie? Or do you just think that everything is just "left" (whatever that means) or "right" (which means absolutely nothing any more)?

Or, another question, do you know what Fascism is? Are you a supporter of Fascism? Does it matter to you that you support someone who constitutes a serious threat to bring Fascism to this country?

Probably because you're irrelevant, and your post even more so.

The talk about using "crime infested" having racially charged undertones is just yet another media and left charged way to stir up the masses. Baltimroe is full fo crime, heavy on crime, crime out the wazoo, crime infested, any way you classify it, its true

I went to college at the real HU, Howard, in a part of DC that is less than desirable as some would describe it. I heard often times many describe it as a crime infested area, many of whom were my fellow classmates and minorities, never once did anyone suggest it was racially motivated. But yeah, now it is because the President said it and the media needs a story.

[pancakes3]

it's been explained to you - you're just too dumb to understand.

it's also not the board's job to explain it to you.

[daoneandonly]

I dont need anyone to explain biased lies to me. Someone who makes $150,000 will pay more than someone who makes $50,000 in a flat tax system because one number is bigger than the other, is that too difficult for you to understand cakes?

But then again you dont know the meaning of the word accountability and you use the word dumb for other people. it's the government and biology's fault people use drugs, the people that actually use things like planned parenthood should pay less for funding it than those that would never step foot in it, cancel all student debt, decriminalize illegal border crossing, liberal views = no accountability.

[pancakes3]

i feel like you like the flat tax system bc it's a system easy enough for you to wrap your brain around, and you're too dumb to understand the arguments for a progressive tax system.

similarly you have severely reductionist views on abortion, drugs, immigration, etc. because reducing things to a single metric instead of considering a wide variety of variables is less strenuous on your brain.

take drugs for instance - you've completely reduced "drugs" into a single box as "bad" without even acknowledging what is bad about drugs - just that drugs are bad and drug users are bad. there's no delineation between types of drugs, or that it's not the actual product that's bad, but consequences stemming from addiction that's the actual societal ill, etc.

just - "drugs are bad and people shouldn't do drugs."

or "illegal immigration is bad and people shouldn't immigrate illegally" without giving any thought as to why people immigrate, why the penalties should be criminal rather than civil, why should there even be penalties, etc.

not to mention the lack of discussion of the biology behind your banner issue - abortion. dobro's an actual scientist who has provided you with actual science to engage with, as to determine your characterizations of murder with respect to fertilized egg, zygote, fetus, etc. i know those are big head-hurty science words for you but if you're going to base your entire voting identity to the issue, you might want to at least try.

even with "crime infested" - it's been explained to you 8 different ways from 8 different posters why it's racist and you're just saying "well there's crime in baltimore, so yeah,Trump's just calling balls and strikes." and ignoring everything else that makes it racist.

but the tl;dr is, you're dumb bro. and it has nothing to do with your party affiliation.

[daoneandonly]

bro? you're the dumb one who articulates themselves as that of someone still in college

you're the one that keeps whining about the "war on drug" and continue to give people an out for addiction. it's actually pretty damn simple, have self control and restraint, and no crazy degree of drug problems that we have today. But we've been conditioned to believe and expect the government to bail us out of any issue and problem our own actions have dug us into, and that is the hallmark of the progressive way.

i feel like you like the progressive tax system so you can only pay 10-12% while others can pay upwards of 24 or even 30+ % to bail you out and make your life easier. Again, an easy life, the progressive way.

i know why people immigrate to the US, your dumb non funny backside made a joke yesterday regarding me going back, difference is, my family did it legally.

[pancakes3]

It hasn't been explained in any way that proves the progressive tax system is better.

it's been explained to you - you're just too dumb to understand.

it's also not the board's job to explain it to you.

I dont need anyone to explain biased lies to me.

cool. good talk.

[Kanyewest]

What was everyone's thoughts on debates last night?

[pancakes3]

What was everyone's thoughts on debates last night?

Read on Twitter

[doclinkin]

I dont need anyone to explain biased lies to me. Someone who makes $150,000 will pay more than someone who makes $50,000 in a flat tax system because one number is bigger than the other, is that too difficult for you to understand cakes?

But then again you dont know the meaning of the word accountability and you use the word dumb for other people. it's the government and biology's fault people use drugs, the people that actually use things like planned parenthood should pay less for funding it than those that would never step foot in it, cancel all student debt, decriminalize illegal border crossing, liberal views = no accountability.

Do poor kids' bodies need less food than wealthy kids'? Should they eat 50% less food?
Does a working single mother have say 30% less need for heat in the winter than a wealthy person? Maybe sleeping half the time out in the rain if they can't afford rent.
When they are sick should a struggling working guys body deserve 40% less health than a millionaire?

Because that is what a flat tax is talking about. At the bottom end of the income scale people SPEND MORE THAN THEY EARN on basics like food, health care, and transportation. TheY pool resources or charge it and end up in servitude to credit card corporations and predatory lenders.

So at the bottom end a flat tax means the difference between paying a heat bill in the winter, or choosing between food and car insurance or gas.

You think a flat tax is fair. It's not. It is unfair. But hey Life is unfair, right. But you know, it sounds dumb to say, but it is disproportionately more unfair on behalf of the wealthy.

Is more fairness what you are really arguing for? The children of people born wealthy tend to stay wealthy. The children of poor people tend to remain poor. That's an accident of birth. Is that fair? Those kids didn't choose to be born poor. This is the reason why we try to foster programs in the US to increase that middle class. Sadly for a long time the middle class has been shrinking. And the working guy at the bottom end of the ladder can't find ways to fight his way up. This was not the case when this country built itself as an economic powerhouse in the 1950s.

But back then the moneyed class were taxed at a dollar for dollar rate. 50% at the top end. And that money was invested into highways, science education, public safety, okay the military, but also a social safety net. Grants for soldiers to go to college and make new professions for themselves. And so on.

The middle class spends money, and that money gets spread around into making other people middle class. The poor spend more than they earn, they go into debt. Of the income they receive (INCLUDING food stamps and public assistance) below a certain level they spend literally 100% of their income on housing alone.

And at the upper end, additional money that is over and above the basic needs plus entertainment, is simply hoarded. Held onto. It doesn't make it into the revenue stream. It just sits there getting bigger. Making money for CEO’s and investors and massive corporations. But otherwise just sitting there as unrealized potential.

How is that good for the country? That people who are born rich will get ever richer while more and more of our country risks slipping into poverty. That our middle class becomes a myth when Walmart and Amazon starve out local businesses and there’s nothing left but low end service jobs.

Shouldn't someone do something about that? And how? And if so who pays for it? The people who can't afford it already? Or the people who can many times over.

I know you have a good heart. You feel like people should work for what they get and earn it and be able to keep it. But you don’t want kids to starve to death if they can’t. The problem is the system right now is slanted to benefit billionaires and corporations and the people who OWN the mega media entities from whom we get our news. Who benefits. Look into the think tanks who pump out ideas like the flat tax. Look at what companies are advertising on the news shows that sell you on the idea. Even look at weak arguments by the other side and who owns those companies as well. And why they pick the weakest arguments to spotlight the counter idea.

It’s in their best interest to keep us fighting with each other over scraps while they play games with our future.

But. Yes. This country needs to get back to the place where a smart guy who works hard in his lifetime has a chance to buy a house or start a smart business or even become a millionaire. The way the system is slanted now it’s even more unlikely than that ever was. Because the system is built to take better care of corporations than the guy with a good idea and the willingness to work.

If we could tax billionaires and create business incentives for making more millionaires we’d be doing better. Again. Might even make America great. Okay Again. Only this time with less racism maybe and a bit more diversity.

[payitforward]

It hasn't been explained in any way that proves the progressive tax system is better. Everyone should pay the same rate, I am not better than you, you are not better than point, point is not better than dck, dck is not better than ruz, ruz is not better than monte. We're all the same, we all make what we make, and we should all pay the same % of what we make for the services we share. Despite the fact that some of us will never use many of those very services. You can argue with it any which way, same % is fair no matter how you slice it.

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

You make two unrelated points here -- or, rather, you take two unrelated stands. I don't agree with either of them, but I don't have an argument to make in respect of the second one. Your idea of what's a moral issue is entirely up to you; as long as you don't seek to impose it (though of course you are free to militate for it as much as you please), no problem.

The other point -- that a flat tax system is either "fairer" or in some other way "better" than a graduated system -- is not a moral nor an ethical position. It's a claim that would have to made on the basis of some other set of benefits to the social order.

You don't make any such claim, & my guess is that you have no idea why a graduated tax system was ever created or of the benefits it has delivered by lowering social conflict. Every "advanced" country in the world, where by advanced we mean with an advanced economy, employs a graduated tax system.

Given that not much wealth is produced by labor any more, & that it continues to decline, & that there is little reason it would ever do anything but continue to decline as a % of wealth creation & maybe even on an absolute basis longer term, a flat tax system, the near-term result of which would be the collapse of most social support systems, would only lead to greater income inequality & therefore to a larger and larger social segment for whom a flat tax rate would be meaningless, as they'd have little if any income to tax -- at any rate whatever, flat or otherwise.

If anything what we are likely to need soon enough, in order for societies to function at all rather than dissolve into chaos, is a negative tax system, i.e. a basic guaranteed income. I doubt that would meet with much support from you, though maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

[doclinkin]

I continue to be more impressed with Senator Warren. She may be too smart for the presidency, but for every word spoken she has a policy. Vetted by bean counters and tested to figure out how it will be paid for. I read even grudging analyses by GOP pols who are no longer in office and while they quibble with details or dislike who benefits it sounds like they wish they could take credit for the ideas.

Concepts like eliminating student loans. That we have an entire generation in servitude to massive lenders. That young people deep into their 30s are living with parents and struggling to afford health insurance etc.to say nothing of buying a house or starting a family.

But if you were to wipe those bills clear from the public side of lending. Suddenly you’d have a generation who’d have a few extra hundred bucks a month to rent apartments. Start businesses. Move somewhere. Take a risk. Young educated smart people with bright ideas, who lack capital to start them and who look like a lending risk because they’re already carrying crushing debt.

If you free them up from basically indentured servitude to megabanks then we’d have the sort of energy-to-create that drove the dotcom boom and brought us a surplus in the Clinton years. Even if they failed in their businesses there’s free flowing cash there too. In companies renovating that failed business for the next guys bright idea.

That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about when I’m saying squeeze billionaires to make millionaires. Tax amazons and Walmart’s so more young folks can start mom and pop businesses and actually become moms and pops instead of living with mom and pop.

Isn’t that more American than taking care of multinational monopolies? To reward the strivers. And give them a chance to make something of themselves.