If Phoenix Starts Off In The Lower End Of Their Conference: Is Devin Booker Worth A Super Picks Trade Like Russ and PG13

[Scoot McGroot]

Can someone explain why the suns would break up their young core to start another rebuild? Where is the “should the Mavs give up on Luka if they are a bottom team next year thread?”

Your first question is the valid one, and one I can agree with wholeheartedly unless Phoenix decides they don't think Booker is a true number one option long term AND they get just a stupid massive offer for him.
The 2nd one is another 3 years away as Booker is going into his 5th year and age 23 and Luka is going into his 2nd year at age 20 (21 in February). Surely you see a little bit of difference between the two there?

There’s definitely a difference. There are not many apple to apple comparisons.

The point was... from a team building perspective does it make sense to trade a 20 or 22 year old player with star potential?

Doesn’t make any sense to move either player to me.

I think the thing you’re missing is that that poster was likely questioning Booker’s “Star potential”. No one is doing that with Luka yet. That’s one reason why the comparison is even more different.

[Texas Chuck]

I mean at what point do you expect a "superstar" to be able to have his team at least competitive? How many superstars have gotten this far into their career with their team being among the very worst in the league every year? Yes the Suns have plenty of other issues beyond Booker, but at some point instead of getting defensive about any perceived criticism, shouldn't you be wanting some tangible results?

Note: I'm not saying the Suns should trade him, but if someone gets stupid they should absolutely listen---I mean there is nowhere to regress from here for the Suns, right? Acting like dealing him sets you back 3 years is ignoring the past 3 years.

[Coeur]

Yeah I think Nugs could go 3 unprotected 1sts.


Booker with Jamal Murray and Jokic would be something special


I like the part “if the suns start out bottom “ If.

[gambitx777]

Booker is 22-23 and just signed an extension ? Rebuild what they haven't built anything to rebuild. They are trying to build now, trading Booker would be stupid. Especially when that team has proven it's not very good at the draft. I would hold out and try to make a trade for d-lo at the deadline and try to put pieces around Booker dlo and D.A.

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[hcsilla]

I mean at what point do you expect a "superstar" to be able to have his team at least competitive? How many superstars have gotten this far into their career with their team being among the very worst in the league every year?

Mitch Richmond in Sacramento, who comes to my mind 1st, but I'm sure there are others.

Yes the Suns have plenty of other issues beyond Booker, but at some point instead of getting defensive about any perceived criticism, shouldn't you be wanting some tangible results?

Yeah, but Suns' inabilty of getting at least 4 other NBA players around Booker and a competent coach is beyond surreal.

Note: I'm not saying the Suns should trade him, but if someone gets stupid they should absolutely listen---I mean there is nowhere to regress from here for the Suns, right? Acting like dealing him sets you back 3 years is ignoring the past 3 years.

What is your point? Being very bad doesn't mean there is no more down. Remove Booker from the Suns and they have a hard time to get even 10 wins.

[Fo-Real]

Booker is not untouchable but it would take a blow away offer for the Suns to listen. You can blame him for his teams being bad for these years but he really has not had much nba talent and motivated vets around him. Most of the vets we have had have quit on us over the years and the team has drafted atrociously. The teams construction has been terrible and coaching also, so blame him for being absolutely focused on but we still have hope for at least a Clay Thompson type trajectory.

[DanishLakerFan]

If Phoenix decided to just totally rebuild around a kings ransom return for Booker...

A. Could they get that?
B. Which teams make sense?

I could see Brooklyn, Boston, Denver, Detroit, and Miami offering the most.

I've never been high on Booker and tbh I think he's just a slightly better version of Zach LaVine, which isn't all that exciting. But he's productive and still young, so clearly he's going to land the Suns a pretty good haul. The two OKC deals were quite different though because one had CP3s albatros deal attached to it.

Not sure why they would want to move him though. Least of all now. Rubio is a good PG to have next to Booker with his defense and passing and with Ayton, Mikal and Saric i think they have a really exciting young roster.

[CallMeKahn]

Also an 8-12 record versus 18-6.

The Suns were starting 3 rookies and Dragan Bender. What did you expect?

Doesn't matter who else was playing for them. The assertion was that he had a similar impact to Harden, which is clearly false and skewed by cherry picking numbers.

To a certain point, this is an overused argument that has little merit to me. MJ is often considered the greatest player ever, but he doesn't win 'chips without Pippen and the rest around him. Aside from a few players (Ayton, etc.), Phoenix's team was f'ing horrible last year. People like to compare Mitchell and Booker. If Booker had Utah's coaching, culture, and roster, how good would he be I wonder? If Mitchell had the Suns' coaching and team, he'd be in a similar position I suspect.

You can only do so much with what you're given. A good player on a bad team is still a good player. Dude isn't Harden, of course. But he still has value as a good player in this league.

[Phystic]

Does anyone else see Booker as more of a 4th option on a good team like GSW of years past? He seems pretty single-skilled.

Single skilled in what way? He's obviously not a good defender, but outside of that he can do it all. He can handle the ball and pass( shouldn't be primary facilitator though), can shoot deep, mid range, post up, free throws. Can drive, run fast break, etc. His offensive game is pretty varied. He's a solid rebounder for a Guard. 4th option is pretty extreme. I think he's a #2, or a #3 if the rare case of a team like GSW the last few years.

I mean how can you say he's a 4th option when Klay has clearly been third on the Warriors

[Phystic]

Also an 8-12 record versus 18-6.

The Suns were starting 3 rookies and Dragan Bender. What did you expect?

Doesn't matter who else was playing for them. The assertion was that he had a similar impact to Harden, which is clearly false and skewed by cherry picking numbers.

Wouldn't have similar stats be a a fair reflection of impact? And how can you possibly say roster/coaching doesn't matter when it comes to comparing TEAM records?

[MoneyTalks41890]

Does anyone else see Booker as more of a 4th option on a good team like GSW of years past? He seems pretty single-skilled.

Single skilled in what way? He's obviously not a good defender, but outside of that he can do it all. He can handle the ball and pass( shouldn't be primary facilitator though), can shoot deep, mid range, post up, free throws. Can drive, run fast break, etc. His offensive game is pretty varied. He's a solid rebounder for a Guard. 4th option is pretty extreme. I think he's a #2, or a #3 if the rare case of a team like GSW the last few years.

I mean how can you say he's a 4th option when Klay has clearly been third on the Warriors

Klay is a very good defender.

[Texas Chuck]

Wouldn't have similar stats be a a fair reflection of impact?

Well look at all those stats being used to claim Booker a mirror image of Harden. Seeing them do you honestly believe that over the last 1/4 of the season that Booker was having the same impact as Harden? I don't think anyone really does or could, right?

Stats only tell us what happened. They don't tell us how the stats were achieved and how much the play of that player elevated that of the team. Booker is very talented. No one is arguing that. But the evidence just isn't there yet that he's able to translate that into elevating his team.

[Phystic]

Does anyone else see Booker as more of a 4th option on a good team like GSW of years past? He seems pretty single-skilled.

Single skilled in what way? He's obviously not a good defender, but outside of that he can do it all. He can handle the ball and pass( shouldn't be primary facilitator though), can shoot deep, mid range, post up, free throws. Can drive, run fast break, etc. His offensive game is pretty varied. He's a solid rebounder for a Guard. 4th option is pretty extreme. I think he's a #2, or a #3 if the rare case of a team like GSW the last few years.

I mean how can you say he's a 4th option when Klay has clearly been third on the Warriors

Klay is a very good defender.

Couldn't agree more. What does that have to do with being a top option though?

[Phystic]

Wouldn't have similar stats be a a fair reflection of impact?

Well look at all those stats being used to claim Booker a mirror image of Harden. Seeing them do you honestly believe that over the last 1/4 of the season that Booker was having the same impact as Harden? I don't think anyone really does or could, right?

Stats only tell us what happened. They don't tell us how the stats were achieved and how much the play of that player elevated that of the team. Booker is very talented. No one is arguing that. But the evidence just isn't there yet that he's able to translate that into elevating his team.

Do I think Booker is equal to Harden, of course not. But stats are literally used to reflect a players impact in a game. Mind you I'm not simply saying points, rebounds, assists. Shooting percentage would show how his points were achieved. A:T would show how assists we're achieved. That's what I mean.

But my point is, simply dismissing the rest of the roster and the coaching and saying it's on Booker is just not realistic.

I'm curious, what do people think last year's Suns team would do if we swapped Harden and Booker. Is that roster playoff bound? Are they the contender Houston was? I do not dispute that Booker has not been able to elevate the Suns as a whole. I do dispute that it's solely on Booker to do so.

[pacers33granger]

I'm curious, what do people think last year's Suns team would do if we swapped Harden and Booker. Is that roster playoff bound? Are they the contender Houston was? I do not dispute that Booker has not been able to elevate the Suns as a whole. I do dispute that it's solely on Booker to do so.

That ability to elevate the team is the major major difference between the two though.

Harden's first year in Houston they won 45 games. They had won 34 the year before and retained none of their top 5 players from that season (Lowry, Dragic, Kevin Martin, Scola, and Courtney Lee). Their defense stayed mediocre, but their offense shot up to top 5 by most metrics. Their next 5 guys that year in minutes played were Parsons, Lin, Asik, Delfino, and Patterson. That roster also cycled through players like a typical Morey roster (17 guys played at least 16 games for them), making it all the more impressive. And Harden was 23 that year.

That roster was quite bad without Harden. Maybe not as bad as the Suns roster and the parts fit a bit better, but still.

Nobody said it was solely on Booker to do so and we all understand that Phoenix has been a trainwreck in a lot of ways. But the Suns have won a total of 87 games in the 4 years since he has been drafted and somehow have gotten worse over the last 2. I think if you replaced Booker with Harden they very well may make the playoffs, but at worst are 9th or 10th.

[Mamba4Goat]

If Harden and Booker swapped teams last year Houston is a lotto team and Phoenix is a playoff team. Harden is an MVP for a reason.

[BoogieTime]

I mean at what point do you expect a "superstar" to be able to have his team at least competitive? How many superstars have gotten this far into their career with their team being among the very worst in the league every year?

Mitch Richmond in Sacramento, who comes to my mind 1st, but I'm sure there are others.

Yes the Suns have plenty of other issues beyond Booker, but at some point instead of getting defensive about any perceived criticism, shouldn't you be wanting some tangible results?

Yeah, but Suns' inabilty of getting at least 4 other NBA players around Booker and a competent coach is beyond surreal.

Note: I'm not saying the Suns should trade him, but if someone gets stupid they should absolutely listen---I mean there is nowhere to regress from here for the Suns, right? Acting like dealing him sets you back 3 years is ignoring the past 3 years.

What is your point? Being very bad doesn't mean there is no more down. Remove Booker from the Suns and they have a hard time to get even 10 wins.

Love the Mitch reference, but, coaching again?

As Sacramento’s lead assistant, I’d like to think, and I believe, that Igor was absolutely the furthest from the problems

Monty, and his New Orleans career though, is a uninspiring choice IMO to improve the quality of the coaching.

[Phystic]

I mean at what point do you expect a "superstar" to be able to have his team at least competitive? How many superstars have gotten this far into their career with their team being among the very worst in the league every year?

Mitch Richmond in Sacramento, who comes to my mind 1st, but I'm sure there are others.

Yes the Suns have plenty of other issues beyond Booker, but at some point instead of getting defensive about any perceived criticism, shouldn't you be wanting some tangible results?

Yeah, but Suns' inabilty of getting at least 4 other NBA players around Booker and a competent coach is beyond surreal.

Note: I'm not saying the Suns should trade him, but if someone gets stupid they should absolutely listen---I mean there is nowhere to regress from here for the Suns, right? Acting like dealing him sets you back 3 years is ignoring the past 3 years.

What is your point? Being very bad doesn't mean there is no more down. Remove Booker from the Suns and they have a hard time to get even 10 wins.

Love the Mitch reference, but, coaching again?

As Sacramento’s lead assistant, I’d like to think, and I believe, that Igor was absolutely the furthest from the problems

Monty, and his New Orleans career though, is a uninspiring choice IMO to improve the quality of the coaching.

Igor was a fine coach, however the system he put into place just didn't work with the personnel he had. Some of his rotations were pretty bad and just generally seemed a bit over his head. I do think he will make a great HC though

[Phystic]

I'm curious, what do people think last year's Suns team would do if we swapped Harden and Booker. Is that roster playoff bound? Are they the contender Houston was? I do not dispute that Booker has not been able to elevate the Suns as a whole. I do dispute that it's solely on Booker to do so.

That ability to elevate the team is the major major difference between the two though.

Harden's first year in Houston they won 45 games. They had won 34 the year before and retained none of their top 5 players from that season (Lowry, Dragic, Kevin Martin, Scola, and Courtney Lee). Their defense stayed mediocre, but their offense shot up to top 5 by most metrics. Their next 5 guys that year in minutes played were Parsons, Lin, Asik, Delfino, and Patterson. That roster also cycled through players like a typical Morey roster (17 guys played at least 16 games for them), making it all the more impressive. And Harden was 23 that year.

That roster was quite bad without Harden. Maybe not as bad as the Suns roster and the parts fit a bit better, but still.

Nobody said it was solely on Booker to do so and we all understand that Phoenix has been a trainwreck in a lot of ways. But the Suns have won a total of 87 games in the 4 years since he has been drafted and somehow have gotten worse over the last 2. I think if you replaced Booker with Harden they very well may make the playoffs, but at worst are 9th or 10th.

I mean you previously said the rest of the roster and coaching doesn't matter, because it was comparing Booker and harden, but then proceeded to bring up team record.

Again, I'm not saying Booker is as good as Harden. And I'm well aware stats are easier to get on a bad team. However, during that timespan Booker was playing as well as Harden. Simply writing it off because the Suns record was awful isn't quite fair.

You said yourself the Hardens roster and team build fit better. That plays a major role. I agree Suns would be better if the two players are swapped. And I may agree with that we'd be just outside of playoffs. I do not agree with the previous poster that Suns would be a playoff team. I mean our oldest rotation player was what, like 26(I'm on mobile, can't look it up). I just find it odd that people crap on the Suns for the awful FO moves, coaching and rosterbuild(all warranted) but then also hold it against Booker for not making the trash pile a winning team.

[pacers33granger]

I mean you previously said the rest of the roster and coaching doesn't matter, because it was comparing Booker and harden, but then proceeded to bring up team record.

Not at all what I said. That was a totally different discussion.

Again, I'm not saying Booker is as good as Harden. And I'm well aware stats are easier to get on a bad team. However, during that timespan Booker was playing as well as Harden. Simply writing it off because the Suns record was awful isn't quite fair.

He plainly was not playing as well as him. If you think he put in an MVP level performance over that timeframe, I don't know what to tell you.

You said yourself the Hardens roster and team build fit better. That plays a major role. I agree Suns would be better if the two players are swapped. And I may agree with that we'd be just outside of playoffs. I do not agree with the previous poster that Suns would be a playoff team. I mean our oldest rotation player was what, like 26(I'm on mobile, can't look it up). I just find it odd that people crap on the Suns for the awful FO moves, coaching and rosterbuild(all warranted) but then also hold it against Booker for not making the trash pile a winning team.

He hasn't made the team better. That much is blatantly clear at this point. He's still young and it typically takes guys awhile to figure out how to do that. But he shares in the blame and the constant disregarding of the fact that he has issues that play into Phoenix being one of the worst teams in the league over the past 4 years makes no sense.