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Who Will Be the Odd Men Out?

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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#41 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:48 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:I guess my point is more that does it really matter if we only have Leaf and Alize as the PFs for a bit? I'd prefer to run them over a journeyman vet who doesn't move the needle and won't be here next year. If they are that bad then we know they aren't worth investing in further and can pivot versus having them in the Joe Young end of bench until they move to China role.

I'm also skeptical that Warren is better at SF even with his defense snd rebounding issues.


I mean, as a defensive focused team, it’s nice to have someone that can defend the 4 on occasion. Ideally, Alize develops into that and that’s be great. But if Alize is in foul trouble during one game of one of those 16 games where Myles or Dom are out? Are we waving the white flag? Is Simon likely to sign off on a plan where we sacrifice chances at the playoffs and another couple home games of revenue?

Clearly, they have a plan. However, they’ve talked down what we as fans have projected of the plan, so maybe the answer is Alize?


I get the sense that Simon is ok with sacrificing some wins, though with the caveat that he still expects at least 2 home playoff games. With Vic out we really should be in evaluation mode and we are at least with Domas/Myles. Plus I think it's an easy sell right now because of the fact that we could really save some money on depth if guys like Alize and Sumner prove worthy of minutes, but they need to get the opportunities to show that.


They will get the opportunity to show that. They get that opportunity in camp like everyone else. For some reason we have this vision that guys have to play in games to prove if they can belong or not. If they do not prove that in camp against other NBA players why do they need to take the floor in order to prove that. We obviously can't see how they are doing in practices and individual workouts, but the staff does. If they can't prove they belong in all of those opportunities then why do they belong on the court when games count? If they can't prove that in those opportunities then maybe they are just 13th-14th type of guys on the roster. Which that is fine for young 2nd rounders. I struggle with this whole fascination of let's just throw these guys out there so we see what we have. Well the team will know what they have in those men before the season ever tips off. Finally, players know who deserves run. There is no quicker way to lose a locker room than throwing guys out there in front of guys that deserve it more.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#42 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:50 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
I get the sense that Simon is ok with sacrificing some wins, though with the caveat that he still expects at least 2 home playoff games. With Vic out we really should be in evaluation mode and we are at least with Domas/Myles. Plus I think it's an easy sell right now because of the fact that we could really save some money on depth if guys like Alize and Sumner prove worthy of minutes, but they need to get the opportunities to show that.


I think those two bold items are in complete conflict with each other, though.


Not really. We almost certainly will not be a home playoff team and also will not be on the outside of the playoffs looking in barring some extraordinary circumstances on either side. Clearly his mandate is always to make the playoffs and if he wasn't okay taking a small step back we would not have let Bogie or Thad walk, would not be likely giving rotation minutes to Holiday/Goga/Sumner, and would not have had the amount of roster turnover we did.

This is going to be a bumpy year and is much more of a retool year than some want to admit. Unless we end up like the Nash Suns coming out of nowhere, we've sacrificed some wins already with the moves that have been made.

Ultimately I just don't get the point of playing mediocre (at best) vets like Doug and Justin Holiday over guys we want to develop but haven't really given a chance to develop. Doug, Justin, etc. aren't adding any wins and if the young guys really flounder we can just insert one of the vets at that point.


If our young guys can't outplay Doug, Justin, McConnell, and Jakar Sampson to get on the court, then why are we interested in them? Are we sure that the only thing holding back Holiday, Leaf, Sumner, and Alize are that they didn't get to play enough on the court?

To Simon, historically, the point of playing "mediocre vets" has been to win games, interest the fans with wins, and make more money in attendance and playoff games. For better or worse, that's just kind of the Indiana thing.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#43 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:20 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
If our young guys can't outplay Doug, Justin, McConnell, and Jakar Sampson to get on the court, then why are we interested in them? Are we sure that the only thing holding back Holiday, Leaf, Sumner, and Alize are that they didn't get to play enough on the court?


This ignores the whole thing that coaches routinely say "so and so young guy is one of the best players in practice" but then proceed to play vets because they know what they can get out of them. But they won't ever know if those other guys' games will translate to on the court until they get them on the court. Hell, we heard it all the time about Doug draining everything in practice and then he couldn't hit a shot in games. I'm pretty sure we heard how Holiday was one of the better guys in practice a lot of days last year.

It also ignores the fact that we have had young guys who have played better than vets on the court in the past but the vet gets the nod still in games. It's most certainly not always that certain guys can't beat out others if they don't get time.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#44 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:46 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
If our young guys can't outplay Doug, Justin, McConnell, and Jakar Sampson to get on the court, then why are we interested in them? Are we sure that the only thing holding back Holiday, Leaf, Sumner, and Alize are that they didn't get to play enough on the court?


This ignores the whole thing that coaches routinely say "so and so young guy is one of the best players in practice" but then proceed to play vets because they know what they can get out of them. But they won't ever know if those other guys' games will translate to on the court until they get them on the court. Hell, we heard it all the time about Doug draining everything in practice and then he couldn't hit a shot in games. I'm pretty sure we heard how Holiday was one of the better guys in practice a lot of days last year.

It also ignores the fact that we have had young guys who have played better than vets on the court in the past but the vet gets the nod still in games. It's most certainly not always that certain guys can't beat out others if they don't get time.



Doug shot 49/41/84 last year. The problem wasn't that he "couldn't hit a shot in games", it was that we weren't encouraging him to shoot it enough, and we weren't designing flowing offensive systems that allowed him to succeed to his best.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#45 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:02 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
If our young guys can't outplay Doug, Justin, McConnell, and Jakar Sampson to get on the court, then why are we interested in them? Are we sure that the only thing holding back Holiday, Leaf, Sumner, and Alize are that they didn't get to play enough on the court?


This ignores the whole thing that coaches routinely say "so and so young guy is one of the best players in practice" but then proceed to play vets because they know what they can get out of them. But they won't ever know if those other guys' games will translate to on the court until they get them on the court. Hell, we heard it all the time about Doug draining everything in practice and then he couldn't hit a shot in games. I'm pretty sure we heard how Holiday was one of the better guys in practice a lot of days last year.

It also ignores the fact that we have had young guys who have played better than vets on the court in the past but the vet gets the nod still in games. It's most certainly not always that certain guys can't beat out others if they don't get time.


I don't know this to be the case because I'm not sure of a specific instance you speak of but I have to think there is a little coach talk in there. If a guy isn't getting run you are trying to keep him going until his number gets called during the season. Could you imagine if this year Nate got asked why Sumner isn't playing more and he said "Well Justin Holiday kicks his azz every day in practice and he can't shoot to save his life right now." C'mon that ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#46 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:18 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Doug shot 49/41/84 last year. The problem wasn't that he "couldn't hit a shot in games", it was that we weren't encouraging him to shoot it enough, and we weren't designing flowing offensive systems that allowed him to succeed to his best.


It is well documented that he was trash at home where he shot 31% on the year. Chris and Quinn talked about it constantly how he couldn't miss in practices but was a giant liability in home games. He got the same minutes and same looks both places. We don't generate a lot of threes as a system, but he was given the greenlight every night. And he had the same issues everywhere he has been.

Doug is ok, but he's nothing special whatsoever, has a ton of major holes in his game, and is certainly not worth sacrificing development. None of our bench vets are worth that this year and they weren't last year. Doug, Holiday, etc. will win us as many games as Alize, Leaf, Sumner will cost us.

San Antonio is a prime example of a team that takes development seriously while not sacrificing much on the court. There is simply no reason we can't let these guys get run from time to time rather than letting them languish on the bench until we need to throw them into the fire and be disappointed when they can't produce like our starters. Had Nate given Sumner some minutes here and there early in the season he would have been far readier for stepping into Vic's spot mid season, but instead we took a guy who was the first option in the G League and asked him to do things he has never been asked to do.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#47 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:19 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
I don't know this to be the case because I'm not sure of a specific instance you speak of but I have to think there is a little coach talk in there. If a guy isn't getting run you are trying to keep him going until his number gets called during the season. Could you imagine if this year Nate got asked why Sumner isn't playing more and he said "Well Justin Holiday kicks his azz every day in practice and he can't shoot to save his life right now." C'mon that ain't gonna happen.


The majority of that talk comes from others in attendance at practices like Chris and Quinn. They have no reason to fabricate and have pointed out where others have issues in practice.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#48 » by XxMisterFreakXx » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:30 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
If our young guys can't outplay Doug, Justin, McConnell, and Jakar Sampson to get on the court, then why are we interested in them? Are we sure that the only thing holding back Holiday, Leaf, Sumner, and Alize are that they didn't get to play enough on the court?


This ignores the whole thing that coaches routinely say "so and so young guy is one of the best players in practice" but then proceed to play vets because they know what they can get out of them. But they won't ever know if those other guys' games will translate to on the court until they get them on the court. Hell, we heard it all the time about Doug draining everything in practice and then he couldn't hit a shot in games. I'm pretty sure we heard how Holiday was one of the better guys in practice a lot of days last year.

It also ignores the fact that we have had young guys who have played better than vets on the court in the past but the vet gets the nod still in games. It's most certainly not always that certain guys can't beat out others if they don't get time.



Doug shot 49/41/84 last year. The problem wasn't that he "couldn't hit a shot in games", it was that we weren't encouraging him to shoot it enough, and we weren't designing flowing offensive systems that allowed him to succeed to his best.


I think part of the reason people think he didn't make shots was his struggles at home he had i think a sub 30 percentage at home.

I do think Doug did at times (the few times HE touched the ball) self inflict himself by passing out of shots and playing with Tyreke certainly didn't really help him much either but I can agree that Nate and the staff need to change the system this pick and roll free flow won't work all the time any good coach/team will shut that down.

With the additions of Lamb, Warren, and Brogdon there is no reason AT ALL we should be ranked close to dead last in 3 point attempts if we are something definitely is wrong we should be at least top ten next year or better.

I really hope we design some three point sets next year with all this shooting if not then IDK....

With all that said I think Doug is a capable ten ppg scorer maybe even more if he got the attempts Bojan got last year.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#49 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:49 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
I don't know this to be the case because I'm not sure of a specific instance you speak of but I have to think there is a little coach talk in there. If a guy isn't getting run you are trying to keep him going until his number gets called during the season. Could you imagine if this year Nate got asked why Sumner isn't playing more and he said "Well Justin Holiday kicks his azz every day in practice and he can't shoot to save his life right now." C'mon that ain't gonna happen.


The majority of that talk comes from others in attendance at practices like Chris and Quinn. They have no reason to fabricate and have pointed out where others have issues in practice.


I love Chris as a broadcaster. With no basketball experience I wouldn't want him making personnel decisions for a team. Quinn obviously knows the game. Not a great coaching career but a guy like that knows the game. I'm with you on trusting his opinion a little bit. Just remember these guys are watching practice for periods of time and looking at it superficially. I doubt Chris and Quinn are sitting on the side talking about the defensive rotation that was just missed. I doubt Quinn sits in on every practice from start to finish. The coaches and player personnel are not only at practice but watch film of practices.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#50 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 1, 2019 7:15 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

Doug shot 49/41/84 last year. The problem wasn't that he "couldn't hit a shot in games", it was that we weren't encouraging him to shoot it enough, and we weren't designing flowing offensive systems that allowed him to succeed to his best.


It is well documented that he was trash at home where he shot 31% on the year. Chris and Quinn talked about it constantly how he couldn't miss in practices but was a giant liability in home games. He got the same minutes and same looks both places. We don't generate a lot of threes as a system, but he was given the greenlight every night. And he had the same issues everywhere he has been.

Doug is ok, but he's nothing special whatsoever, has a ton of major holes in his game, and is certainly not worth sacrificing development. None of our bench vets are worth that this year and they weren't last year. Doug, Holiday, etc. will win us as many games as Alize, Leaf, Sumner will cost us.

San Antonio is a prime example of a team that takes development seriously while not sacrificing much on the court. There is simply no reason we can't let these guys get run from time to time rather than letting them languish on the bench until we need to throw them into the fire and be disappointed when they can't produce like our starters. Had Nate given Sumner some minutes here and there early in the season he would have been far readier for stepping into Vic's spot mid season, but instead we took a guy who was the first option in the G League and asked him to do things he has never been asked to do.



So, Doug is insanely automatic on the road and a below average shooter at home. On average over the season he put up good percentages. That’s different than “not being able to buy a shot”. He’s also a career 46/39/84 shooter at home and 46/42/81 on the road. I’m not sure where you’re getting that this has ALWAYS been an issue for him as his percentage this past year home/road is essentially the total difference on his career. But, I imagine this isn’t about Doug.

But if you say Alize, Sumner, and Leaf will lose the same 5 games that Dougie, Holiday, etc will win us, that’s a 10 game swing and the difference between playoffs and not. Ultimately, I imagine that’s not your issue either. I’m al for this year being a transition and have spoke nothing otherwise. I just see guys get thrown to the wolves too early all the time, or GIVEN something they haven’t earned and don’t ever see them recover. Are we being realistic when we’re expecting Alize and Sumner to be night in and out producers? We talk about giving up early on Niang and he’s just now looking like he may be able to produce some bench minutes reliably in Utah. We’ve pretty much given Goga, Leaf and Holiday the backup spots and we’ll be counting on each to reliably produce every night. We also want to do the same for Alize and Sumner?Just give 5 of the top 10 rotation spots to these guys without so much as a battle or making them earn it? Might we be hoping for a grand slam of development if we do that? San Antonio usually succeeds at this because they bring one, maybe two of these guys along at a time, but every single year. We’re expecting Indy to do it with 5 guys at once? I’m not asking to play nothing but vets, but, I’m not asking to play nothing but young guys either. I just saw Sumner be given a starting spot last year and do nothing but show why he can’t be trusted and had to have the reins pulled back, as you said should happen, and have a vet inserted, and now we hate that that happened?

I think there’s a reason we gave Sumner 3 more years. It may take all of that to be useful. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Alize get re signed at years end to a similar longer deal. Leaf needed all of two full seasons to look like a guy that just belonged in the nba in any capacity. I’m hoping Goga is more Myles/Dom than Leaf and can be relied on his rookie year. At the same time, I don’t think it’s crazy to have vets you can count on. If the young guys aren’t succeeding and hurting us, we’ll need some vets to throw in there and stabilize us at replacement level caliber sometimes.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#51 » by Wizop » Thu Aug 1, 2019 7:19 pm

pacers33granger wrote:if he wasn't okay taking a small step back we would not have let Bogie or Thad walk


we got younger and added offense. I can argue that we were positioning ourselves for a step forward thinking we'd gotten as much out of Bogie and Thad as they had to give.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#52 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 1, 2019 7:52 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
But if you say Alize, Sumner, and Leaf will lose the same 5 games that Dougie, Holiday, etc will win us, that’s a 10 game swing and the difference between playoffs and not. Ultimately, I imagine that’s not your issue either. I’m al for this year being a transition and have spoke nothing otherwise. I just see guys get thrown to the wolves too early all the time, or GIVEN something they haven’t earned and don’t ever see them recover.


I think this is the difference where I don't believe we would have much of a swing in games won or lost. I'm thinking the difference would be 3-4 games at most. 10 games seems very very high for the difference between average bench players versus unproven young bench players.

And I think Alize, Sumner, and Leaf have proven enough to warrant getting some time. I'm not the biggest Leaf fan overall, but he produced alright when given a chance and has put in 2 years. Alize and Sumner both have outplayed the competition in the G League, so I think it's time to give them a real chance. I don't see them hanging out on the bench or down there adding much to their development at this point.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#53 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 1, 2019 7:52 pm

Wizop wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:if he wasn't okay taking a small step back we would not have let Bogie or Thad walk


we got younger and added offense. I can argue that we were positioning ourselves for a step forward thinking we'd gotten as much out of Bogie and Thad as they had to give.


No doubt, but we certainly took a step or two back.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#54 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu Aug 1, 2019 8:15 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
But if you say Alize, Sumner, and Leaf will lose the same 5 games that Dougie, Holiday, etc will win us, that’s a 10 game swing and the difference between playoffs and not. Ultimately, I imagine that’s not your issue either. I’m al for this year being a transition and have spoke nothing otherwise. I just see guys get thrown to the wolves too early all the time, or GIVEN something they haven’t earned and don’t ever see them recover.


I think this is the difference where I don't believe we would have much of a swing in games won or lost. I'm thinking the difference would be 3-4 games at most. 10 games seems very very high for the difference between average bench players versus unproven young bench players.

And I think Alize, Sumner, and Leaf have proven enough to warrant getting some time. I'm not the biggest Leaf fan overall, but he produced alright when given a chance and has put in 2 years. Alize and Sumner both have outplayed the competition in the G League, so I think it's time to give them a real chance. I don't see them hanging out on the bench or down there adding much to their development at this point.


I don't believe that outplaying G league competition equates to getting rotational minutes night in and night out in the NBA.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#55 » by pacers33granger » Thu Aug 1, 2019 8:35 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
And I think Alize, Sumner, and Leaf have proven enough to warrant getting some time. I'm not the biggest Leaf fan overall, but he produced alright when given a chance and has put in 2 years. Alize and Sumner both have outplayed the competition in the G League, so I think it's time to give them a real chance. I don't see them hanging out on the bench or down there adding much to their development at this point.


I don't believe that outplaying G league competition equates to getting rotational minutes night in and night out in the NBA.


Yeah that isn't what I said at all. They've put in their work there and won't benefit from it anymore. It's time to see if they can do something at the next level. We're not talking about Bowen. We're talking about 2nd and 3rd year players. If we aren't going to give them a shot now, why even have them on the roster.

Both of those guys also need to get chances to prove they can play as role players. If we just let them dominate the competition as first options, how does that help them (and us) if we want them to play completely differently at the next level?

We gave Joe Young a shot, realized he wasn't NBA caliber, and didn't resign him. But we would have figured that out a year prior and could have cut our losses if we didn't wait until year 3. If they can't cut it, they can't cut it.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#56 » by Pacers_Freak » Thu Aug 1, 2019 8:59 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
And I think Alize, Sumner, and Leaf have proven enough to warrant getting some time. I'm not the biggest Leaf fan overall, but he produced alright when given a chance and has put in 2 years. Alize and Sumner both have outplayed the competition in the G League, so I think it's time to give them a real chance. I don't see them hanging out on the bench or down there adding much to their development at this point.


I don't believe that outplaying G league competition equates to getting rotational minutes night in and night out in the NBA.


Yeah that isn't what I said at all. They've put in their work there and won't benefit from it anymore. It's time to see if they can do something at the next level. We're not talking about Bowen. We're talking about 2nd and 3rd year players. If we aren't going to give them a shot now, why even have them on the roster.

Both of those guys also need to get chances to prove they can play as role players. If we just let them dominate the competition as first options, how does that help them (and us) if we want them to play completely differently at the next level?

We gave Joe Young a shot, realized he wasn't NBA caliber, and didn't resign him. But we would have figured that out a year prior and could have cut our losses if we didn't wait until year 3. If they can't cut it, they can't cut it.


Sorry must have misread what you said. We are obviously on different sides of this which is cool and what this forum is all about. I think we all want the same thing just have different viewpoints on how it should happen. I've enjoyed hearing your viewpoints. I hope these guys win spots and playing time and perform well because that would be great for the team. Cheers 33!
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#57 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 1, 2019 9:08 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
And I think Alize, Sumner, and Leaf have proven enough to warrant getting some time. I'm not the biggest Leaf fan overall, but he produced alright when given a chance and has put in 2 years. Alize and Sumner both have outplayed the competition in the G League, so I think it's time to give them a real chance. I don't see them hanging out on the bench or down there adding much to their development at this point.


I don't believe that outplaying G league competition equates to getting rotational minutes night in and night out in the NBA.


Yeah that isn't what I said at all. They've put in their work there and won't benefit from it anymore. It's time to see if they can do something at the next level. We're not talking about Bowen. We're talking about 2nd and 3rd year players. If we aren't going to give them a shot now, why even have them on the roster.

Both of those guys also need to get chances to prove they can play as role players. If we just let them dominate the competition as first options, how does that help them (and us) if we want them to play completely differently at the next level?

We gave Joe Young a shot, realized he wasn't NBA caliber, and didn't resign him. But we would have figured that out a year prior and could have cut our losses if we didn't wait until year 3. If they can't cut it, they can't cut it.


I think there’s a step between dominating GLeague and just getting rotational minutes in the nba. I think just practicing against the big league guys night in and out is another step too.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#58 » by Wizop » Fri Aug 2, 2019 3:20 pm

pacers33granger wrote:Doug, Justin, etc. aren't adding any wins


subtracting a loss is the same as adding a win.
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Re: Who Will Be the Odd Men Out? 

Post#59 » by 8305 » Sat Aug 3, 2019 12:54 pm

I see a path to minutes for both Sumner and Alize but, the opportunity won't come based off the big G League offensive numbers. I think there is a legit question when it comes to defending the stretch 4 and pg. Right now the depth chart at 4 is Dom and Leaf. If some mobile shooting 4 is just torching us and neither Dom or TJ has an answer is there any obvious guy to throw at this problem? Alize could be that guy. Minutes would be situational but still it would be real court time.

Assuming our starting lineup is
Brogdan, Lamb, Warren, Dom, MIles i'm not sure we have anyone in that group who can defend a pg and some of those pg's can totally light it up. Holiday looked better in the Summer League but set him against Kyrie, Kemba right now? Might be situation where Sumner gets situational minutes.

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