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Political Roundtable Part XXVI

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#761 » by dobrojim » Thu Aug 1, 2019 3:14 am

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.


I don't object to your believing what you believe even though I completely disagree.

I do strongly object to your imposing that belief me, my family and on everyone else.

Plus I don't actually believe that in actual practice you truly think a fetus is the same
as a baby. I have repeatedly provided hypotheticals which demonstrate this. You dismiss
them as mere hypotheticals rather than address the rationale.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#762 » by dckingsfan » Thu Aug 1, 2019 2:14 pm

dobrojim wrote:
A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

I don't object to your believing what you believe even though I completely disagree.

I do strongly object to your imposing that belief me, my family and on everyone else.

Plus I don't actually believe that in actual practice you truly think a fetus is the same as a baby. I have repeatedly provided hypotheticals which demonstrate this. You dismiss them as mere hypotheticals rather than address the rationale.

And with everything - there is then the remedy. And if there remedy is then locking up more people like we have with the failed war on drugs - count me out.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#763 » by dckingsfan » Thu Aug 1, 2019 2:18 pm

Not sure if you watched both debates - but I think she came out the clear winner. Biden got hammered - look for a drop in his poll numbers (dude just can't debate to save his life). Harris got hammered. Pete did little to prop himself up. Sanders was meh (except to Sanders supporters. And she came across really well.

I am not a Warren supporter BTW, and would have a really hard time working on her campaign. But she clearly is rising above the other candidates, IMO.
doclinkin wrote:I continue to be more impressed with Senator Warren. She may be too smart for the presidency, but for every word spoken she has a policy. Vetted by bean counters and tested to figure out how it will be paid for. I read even grudging analyses by GOP pols who are no longer in office and while they quibble with details or dislike who benefits it sounds like they wish they could take credit for the ideas.

Concepts like eliminating student loans. That we have an entire generation in servitude to massive lenders. That young people deep into their 30s are living with parents and struggling to afford health insurance etc.to say nothing of buying a house or starting a family.

But if you were to wipe those bills clear from the public side of lending. Suddenly you’d have a generation who’d have a few extra hundred bucks a month to rent apartments. Start businesses. Move somewhere. Take a risk. Young educated smart people with bright ideas, who lack capital to start them and who look like a lending risk because they’re already carrying crushing debt.

If you free them up from basically indentured servitude to megabanks then we’d have the sort of energy-to-create that drove the dotcom boom and brought us a surplus in the Clinton years. Even if they failed in their businesses there’s free flowing cash there too. In companies renovating that failed business for the next guys bright idea.

That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about when I’m saying squeeze billionaires to make millionaires. Tax amazons and Walmart’s so more young folks can start mom and pop businesses and actually become moms and pops instead of living with mom and pop.

Isn’t that more American than taking care of multinational monopolies? To reward the strivers. And give them a chance to make something of themselves.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#764 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:33 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I am not a Warren supporter BTW, and would have a really hard time working on her campaign. But she clearly is rising above the other candidates, IMO.


It's understandable that not everyone is going to agree with her or believe in her but the only other candidates who are even putting up a fight if you look at things objectively are Harris and Buttgieg, for different reasons. The reasons Bernie and Biden are still so popular aren't a mystery - they just aren't very good reasons.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#765 » by Ruzious » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:55 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I am not a Warren supporter BTW, and would have a really hard time working on her campaign. But she clearly is rising above the other candidates, IMO.


It's understandable that not everyone is going to agree with her or believe in her but the only other candidates who are even putting up a fight if you look at things objectively are Harris and Buttgieg, for different reasons. The reasons Bernie and Biden are still so popular aren't a mystery - they just aren't very good reasons.

I'm looking for electable and adequate. So far, Biden's the only one who checks both boxes. Booker's laughably bad, and Harris always has an exepression on her face that makes it look she's either about to cry or about to tell a story about how tough it was for her as a little girl... she also doesn't seem to have any foresight. Sanders looks like a crazy old man, and Beto's a lightweight. It's not evern a question - it's Biden. I don't even care if he gives me a neck massage. Warren would be my second choice - she's doing a solid job, but Biden is more electable.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#766 » by dckingsfan » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:13 pm

Ruzious wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I am not a Warren supporter BTW, and would have a really hard time working on her campaign. But she clearly is rising above the other candidates, IMO.

It's understandable that not everyone is going to agree with her or believe in her but the only other candidates who are even putting up a fight if you look at things objectively are Harris and Buttgieg, for different reasons. The reasons Bernie and Biden are still so popular aren't a mystery - they just aren't very good reasons.

I'm looking for electable and adequate. So far, Biden's the only one who checks both boxes. Booker's laughably bad, and Harris always has an exepression on her face that makes it look she's either about to cry or about to tell a story about how tough it was for her as a little girl... she also doesn't seem to have any foresight. Sanders looks like a crazy old man, and Beto's a lightweight. It's not evern a question - it's Biden. I don't even care if he gives me a neck massage. Warren would be my second choice - she's doing a solid job, but Biden is more electable.

Ruz - did you watch the debates? If so, do you think he would get clobbered in a debate with Trump? I think Warren would destroy Trump. So, I think she might be the more electable one?

All questions - because I still haven't chosen my candidate for whom I should work...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#767 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:41 pm

Trump's former top adviser: tariffs backfiring on US

The tariff battle has had a "dramatic impact" on US manufacturing and capital investment, Gary Cohn told Radio 4's Today programme.

The trade war was "a very convenient excuse" for China to slow down its overheated economy, he added.

Mr Cohn, a free trade advocate, resigned from the Trump administration in March 2018.

"I think the Chinese economy was going to slow down with or without a trade war," Mr Cohn said.

The idea that tariffs would solve trade imbalances between the US and China was a "long-time view" of Mr Trump's, Mr Cohn added.

However, he said Mr Trump was right to try to tackle China's theft of US intellectual property and blocking of US companies' access to Chinese markets.

"That has to be fixed," he said.

But he warned: "I think everyone loses in a trade war. We are an 80% service economy. The service side of the economy is doing very well, because, guess what, it's not being tariffed."

Mr Cohn said the tariffs had made it expensive to import vital products from China, counteracting the effects of Mr Trump's tax cuts, which were designed to stimulate the US economy.

He said: "When you build plant equipment, you're buying steel, you're buying aluminium, you're buying imported products and then we put tariffs on those, so literally the tax incentive we gave you with one hand was taken away with the other hand.

"So we are not seeing the manufacturing job creation. And I think if we get through this tariff situation, there's a real opportunity to see it here in the United States."

Spoiler:
Mr Cohn is less than flattering about the US president's policies.

He thinks the trade wars have created geopolitical uncertainty, which is stopping businesses from investing. Strikingly he also thinks that, for all the rhetoric, the trade war with China is hurting the US more than it is the Chinese.

Mr Trump won't like reading that. Mr Cohn though delivered for the President on tax cuts and deregulation, one of the things that has given boosters to the US economy - unemployment at record lows, wages rising, consumer confidence increasing.

Yes, the tax cuts have disproportionately helped the rich, and handed massive tax windfalls to corporate America - but with a growing economy, and interest rates falling - that doesn't seem to be a big concern.

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#768 » by Ruzious » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:06 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:It's understandable that not everyone is going to agree with her or believe in her but the only other candidates who are even putting up a fight if you look at things objectively are Harris and Buttgieg, for different reasons. The reasons Bernie and Biden are still so popular aren't a mystery - they just aren't very good reasons.

I'm looking for electable and adequate. So far, Biden's the only one who checks both boxes. Booker's laughably bad, and Harris always has an exepression on her face that makes it look she's either about to cry or about to tell a story about how tough it was for her as a little girl... she also doesn't seem to have any foresight. Sanders looks like a crazy old man, and Beto's a lightweight. It's not evern a question - it's Biden. I don't even care if he gives me a neck massage. Warren would be my second choice - she's doing a solid job, but Biden is more electable.

Ruz - did you watch the debates? If so, do you think he would get clobbered in a debate with Trump? I think Warren would destroy Trump. So, I think she might be the more electable one?

All questions - because I still haven't chosen my candidate for whom I should work...

I think they're pretty much irrelevant. Trump winning the Republican nomination last time proved that - He's a terrible debator, and nobody cared. I only watched some highlights on the Daily Show. They're basically people posing, and I find them nauseating on the whole. I have zero interest in people trying to play gotcha with Biden about some votes he made more than 40 years ago. And from what I've read and seen, Warren really didn't make an impression one way or the other - for what it's worth. The funniest part was Booker taking cheap shots at Biden and then saying the Dems shouldn't be picking fights with each other.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#769 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:23 pm

Ruzious wrote:I'm looking for electable and adequate. So far, Biden's the only one who checks both boxes. Booker's laughably bad, and Harris always has an exepression on her face that makes it look she's either about to cry or about to tell a story about how tough it was for her as a little girl... she also doesn't seem to have any foresight. Sanders looks like a crazy old man, and Beto's a lightweight. It's not evern a question - it's Biden. I don't even care if he gives me a neck massage. Warren would be my second choice - she's doing a solid job, but Biden is more electable.


I don't see Biden as electable. He's the guy who makes old-timey centrist Democrats feel the most comfortable but he's one of the worst candidates in terms of driving the edges in terms of people who may or may not vote. Basically, his entire campaign seems to be living on the fumes from his association with Obama and hoping they're enough to get him across the finish line. He might be adequate in the sense that he isn't Trump but compared with a lot of the other candidates, he's behind the curve there and doesn't necessarily garner the same enthusiasm beyond simply being considered grudgingly agreeable.

As for being "more electable," I'm not suggesting that's you, but in my experience when Democrats say "more electable" that tends to be their way of saying more of a white male. Warren is a better candidate than Biden on a platform basis. The only reasons you're saying she's worse is "her expression" and a lack of foresight, which may or may not be true but Biden has it worse. On a lot of fronts that appear important to Democratic supporters, Biden has flipped and flopped with the wind as was necessary, but he's often done it grudgingly and there is a lot of cynicism where he's concerned. He would be like shooting fish in a barrel for only statistical trolls.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#770 » by Ruzious » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:38 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Ruzious wrote:I'm looking for electable and adequate. So far, Biden's the only one who checks both boxes. Booker's laughably bad, and Harris always has an exepression on her face that makes it look she's either about to cry or about to tell a story about how tough it was for her as a little girl... she also doesn't seem to have any foresight. Sanders looks like a crazy old man, and Beto's a lightweight. It's not evern a question - it's Biden. I don't even care if he gives me a neck massage. Warren would be my second choice - she's doing a solid job, but Biden is more electable.


I don't see Biden as electable. He's the guy who makes old-timey centrist Republicans feel the most comfortable but he's one of the worst candidates in terms of driving the edges in terms of people who may or may not vote. Basically, his entire campaign seems to be living on the fumes from his association with Obama and hoping they're enough to get him across the finish line. He might be adequate in the sense that he isn't Trump but compared with a lot of the other candidates, he's behind the curve there and doesn't necessarily garner the same enthusiasm beyond simply being considered grudgingly agreeable.

As for being "more electable," I'm not suggesting that's you, but in my experience when Democrats say "more electable" that tends to be their way of saying more of a white male. Warren is a better candidate than Biden on a platform basis. The only reasons you're saying she's worse is "her expression" and a lack of foresight, which may or may not be true but Biden has it worse. On a lot of fronts that appear important to Democratic supporters, Biden has flipped and flopped with the wind as was necessary, but he's often done it grudgingly and there is a lot of cynicism where he's concerned. He would be like shooting fish in a barrel for only statistical trolls.

I can't imagine people not voting at this point, but a lot of things I can't imagine have happened. And the last thing I'm willing to do is listen to people's reasons for not voting - i don't have the patience.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#771 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:54 pm

Ruzious wrote:I can't imagine people not voting at this point, but a lot of things I can't imagine have happened. And the last thing I'm willing to do is listen to people's reasons for not voting - i don't have the patience.


Fair enough, but if that's true, what's behind your assertion that Biden is actually "more electable" than anyone else in particular?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#772 » by pancakes3 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 6:57 pm

i'll vote for anyone not trump but warren's clearly the leader in the clubhouse right now.

i'll also echo ILD's incredulity at Biden's "electability." not to sound full TGW but the media's doing a large part in propping Biden up as a viable candidate. he had two pretty notable flubs last night ("go to Joe30330" and calling Booker president twice), as well as a bunch of other minor flubs (saying "TTP" instead of "TPP", misquoting m4a costs, saying that America accounts for 15% of its pollution instead of the world's pollution) that would have drawn a bunch of attention if it were any other candidate.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#773 » by Ruzious » Thu Aug 1, 2019 7:24 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Ruzious wrote:I can't imagine people not voting at this point, but a lot of things I can't imagine have happened. And the last thing I'm willing to do is listen to people's reasons for not voting - i don't have the patience.


Fair enough, but if that's true, what's behind your assertion that Biden is actually "more electable" than anyone else in particular?

If what's true?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#774 » by gtn130 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 7:50 pm

Biden being popular among Democrats does not mean he is particularly electable in the general election. Agree with ILD and pancakes that he's doing virtually zero to drive turnout along the edges. Degenerates like TGW will sit out and let Trump win again instead of voting for Biden
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#775 » by dckingsfan » Thu Aug 1, 2019 8:51 pm

gtn130 wrote:Biden being popular among Democrats does not mean he is particularly electable in the general election. Agree with ILD and pancakes that he's doing virtually zero to drive turnout along the edges. Degenerates like TGW will sit out and let Trump win again instead of voting for Biden

Aren't they only going to vote for Sanders anyway?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#776 » by dobrojim » Thu Aug 1, 2019 9:49 pm

pancakes3 wrote:i'll vote for anyone not trump but warren's clearly the leader in the clubhouse right now.

i'll also echo ILD's incredulity at Biden's "electability." not to sound full TGW but the media's doing a large part in propping Biden up as a viable candidate. he had two pretty notable flubs last night ("go to Joe30330" and calling Booker president twice), as well as a bunch of other minor flubs (saying "TTP" instead of "TPP", misquoting m4a costs, saying that America accounts for 15% of its pollution instead of the world's pollution) that would have drawn a bunch of attention if it were any other candidate.


Chris Hayes (All In) did an interesting segment last night in his opening block on the whole
electability vs candidates that might excite voters and drive turnout. Good discussion.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#777 » by doclinkin » Thu Aug 1, 2019 10:09 pm

I can see a Biden/Harris ticket giving a strong showing. But I'd prefer to see a Warren vs. Trump debate. She would skin him alive. And I do think Joe will continue to get the shine knocked off him in debates. Both for Primaries and in the General.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#778 » by dckingsfan » Fri Aug 2, 2019 12:36 am

doclinkin wrote:I can see a Biden/Harris ticket giving a strong showing. But I'd prefer to see a Warren vs. Trump debate. She would skin him alive. And I do think Joe will continue to get the shine knocked off him in debates. Both for Primaries and in the General.

I think the Biden/Harris ticket has sailed with Harris' continual attacks on him at the debates.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#779 » by TGW » Fri Aug 2, 2019 1:04 am

#KamalaHarrisdestroyed trending on twitter. My gawd she got murdered by Tulsi Gabbard, and rightfully so. The dumpster democrats are going down this election cycle.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#780 » by doclinkin » Fri Aug 2, 2019 1:56 am

dckingsfan wrote:
doclinkin wrote:I can see a Biden/Harris ticket giving a strong showing. But I'd prefer to see a Warren vs. Trump debate. She would skin him alive. And I do think Joe will continue to get the shine knocked off him in debates. Both for Primaries and in the General.

I think the Biden/Harris ticket has sailed with Harris' continual attacks on him at the debates.


Probably right. By contrast to Bernie/Warren who were collegial and seemed to enjoy being the focus of the attacks. Had each other’s backs.

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