Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[daoneandonly]

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

I don't object to your believing what you believe even though I completely disagree.

I do strongly object to your imposing that belief me, my family and on everyone else.

Plus I don't actually believe that in actual practice you truly think a fetus is the same
as a baby. I have repeatedly provided hypotheticals which demonstrate this. You dismiss
them as mere hypotheticals rather than address the rationale.

It hasn't been explained in any way that proves the progressive tax system is better. Everyone should pay the same rate, I am not better than you, you are not better than point, point is not better than dck, dck is not better than ruz, ruz is not better than monte. We're all the same, we all make what we make, and we should all pay the same % of what we make for the services we share. Despite the fact that some of us will never use many of those very services. You can argue with it any which way, same % is fair no matter how you slice it.

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

You make two unrelated points here -- or, rather, you take two unrelated stands. I don't agree with either of them, but I don't have an argument to make in respect of the second one. Your idea of what's a moral issue is entirely up to you; as long as you don't seek to impose it (though of course you are free to militate for it as much as you please), no problem.
.

The problem though my fellow posters is you and the government are essentially imposing your belief that people who earn more are responsible and obligated to pay more taxes than ppl who earn less to help them, to make their life easier. That too is a moral issue, one that is no more or less important than that of abortion.

If we're going to operate under the premise that the government and others should not be able to impose moral beliefs on others, than we also need to rid ourselves of the progressive tax system, funding PP, and other programs where people who earn more have to disproportionately pay more because someone deemed it the moral thing to do

[dckingsfan]

Premise: A party believes in equal taxation/flat tax

Fact: Federal deficits are a regressive tax on the lowest earners

Therefore a party believes in flat tax taxation would not carry federal deficits

That has not been the case for any of the administrations since Reagan. QED: the party currently in the oval office doesn't believe in a flat tax but rather a regressive tax

[Ruzious]

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

I don't object to your believing what you believe even though I completely disagree.

I do strongly object to your imposing that belief me, my family and on everyone else.

Plus I don't actually believe that in actual practice you truly think a fetus is the same
as a baby. I have repeatedly provided hypotheticals which demonstrate this. You dismiss
them as mere hypotheticals rather than address the rationale.

It hasn't been explained in any way that proves the progressive tax system is better. Everyone should pay the same rate, I am not better than you, you are not better than point, point is not better than dck, dck is not better than ruz, ruz is not better than monte. We're all the same, we all make what we make, and we should all pay the same % of what we make for the services we share. Despite the fact that some of us will never use many of those very services. You can argue with it any which way, same % is fair no matter how you slice it.

A fetus is morally the same, you believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. At least on my island, i stand with both an unborn baby and the kids being treated as less than at the detention centers. Both are wrong, one doesn't have some superiority over the other.

You make two unrelated points here -- or, rather, you take two unrelated stands. I don't agree with either of them, but I don't have an argument to make in respect of the second one. Your idea of what's a moral issue is entirely up to you; as long as you don't seek to impose it (though of course you are free to militate for it as much as you please), no problem.
.

The problem though my fellow posters is you and the government are essentially imposing your belief that people who earn more are responsible and obligated to pay more taxes than ppl who earn less to help them, to make their life easier. That too is a moral issue, one that is no more or less important than that of abortion.

If we're going to operate under the premise that the government and others should not be able to impose moral beliefs on others, than we also need to rid ourselves of the progressive tax system, funding PP, and other programs where people who earn more have to disproportionately pay more because someone deemed it the moral thing to do

I'd call it a logical choice first, an ethical choice second, and a moral choice 3rd. An equitable choice also figures in there somewhere - not sure if that fits under logic or ethics.

And when Warren Buffet states that his secretary pays a higher rate of tax on income than he does, there's a problem.

[dobrojim]

The problem though my fellow posters is you and the government are essentially imposing your belief that people who earn more are responsible and obligated to pay more taxes than ppl who earn less to help them, to make their life easier. That too is a moral issue, one that is no more or less important than that of abortion.

If we're going to operate under the premise that the government and others should not be able to impose moral beliefs on others, than we also need to rid ourselves of the progressive tax system, funding PP, and other programs where people who earn more have to disproportionately pay more because someone deemed it the moral thing to do

Taken to it's logical extreme, people who earn the most should pay nothing (of what they have) and people
who earn the least should pay everything (of what they have).

Actually, that is closer to where we are then the reverse.

[TGW]

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[Wizardspride]

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[FAH1223]

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[TGW]

Wow...another blow to the Russiagate conspiracy. Judge strikes down DNC lawsuit with prejudice. Yikes.

The ruling terminated the DNC’s claims against the Trump campaign, individual members of the campaign, including the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and the document disclosure group WikiLeaks and its leader Julian Assange for releasing material stolen by the Russian hackers.

Good god, how many times is the DNC going to get owned. Talk about incompetent leadership.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/31/judge-tosses-democratic-case-against-trump-campaign-russia-wikileaks.html

[Kanyewest]

More than half the democrats in the house now support impeachment.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/majority-house-democrats-now-favor-trump-impeachment-inquiry-n1038416

[Wizardspride]

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FAH1223,

I assume you share this opinion?

[Kanyewest]

First major poll out has Biden at 32, Sanders at 18, Warren at 8, and Harris at 6. Note it was an online survey.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/

Now I wouldn't draw major conclusions from one poll much like a summer league game.
Although, it looks like Biden won, Warren/Harris lost, and Sanders held pat. I do think that Biden looked pretty vulnerable calling TPP as TTP, bumbling his website. But negative attacks didn't seem to land on Biden. Sanders also appeared to have done better than Warren. I suspect most of her supporters will switch to Bernie if this trend continues. Still, Sanders ideally would probably someone like Harris, Booker, Castro to take a bite out of Biden's numbers as Biden will also probably see some incremental increase with moderates dropping.

Like making a conclusions from one summer league game by Rui, it looks like it will be a Biden vs Sanders run with an uphill battle for Sanders as Biden is seen as the most electable. I don't really think Biden is at this stage of his life although it appears people won't be convinced of that even with poor debate showings or people haven't been paying attention to the debates.

Although still more polls to come out, I am a bit surprised how well someone like Biden is doing and how poorly Warren is.

[dobrojim]

My millennial very pro-feminist daughter (23) has a very uncomplimentary opinion of why Biden
is doing so well in the polls (thus far) while Warren is not. I'm not sure she is at all wrong.

[TGW]

First major poll out has Biden at 32, Sanders at 18, Warren at 8, and Harris at 6. Note it was an online survey.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/

That's a strange poll. 1/3 of the respondents were self-identified Republicans. Unless the DNC is opening up the primaries to Republican voters, I don't see why their responses in a democratic primary poll is weighted as evenly as Democrats. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in polling can school me, but in a closed primary, a poll like this doesn't make sense IMO.

[TGW]

Holy crap.

[dckingsfan]

First major poll out has Biden at 32, Sanders at 18, Warren at 8, and Harris at 6. Note it was an online survey.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/

Now I wouldn't draw major conclusions from one poll much like a summer league game.
Although, it looks like Biden won, Warren/Harris lost, and Sanders held pat. I do think that Biden looked pretty vulnerable calling TPP as TTP, bumbling his website. But negative attacks didn't seem to land on Biden. Sanders also appeared to have done better than Warren. I suspect most of her supporters will switch to Bernie if this trend continues. Still, Sanders ideally would probably someone like Harris, Booker, Castro to take a bite out of Biden's numbers as Biden will also probably see some incremental increase with moderates dropping.

Like making a conclusions from one summer league game by Rui, it looks like it will be a Biden vs Sanders run with an uphill battle for Sanders as Biden is seen as the most electable. I don't really think Biden is at this stage of his life although it appears people won't be convinced of that even with poor debate showings or people haven't been paying attention to the debates.

Although still more polls to come out, I am a bit surprised how well someone like Biden is doing and how poorly Warren is.

Eh - I wouldn't take one poll - and you want to watch the trending as well - there is a pretty long way to go.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/

And the Economist poll has it:
Biden 26
Warren 20
Sanders 13
Harris 11
Buttigieg 6

…

Tell your daughter to get out and work for Warren if she wants to make a change. She clearly won the last set of debates - but it will take time for her to trend up. And there is an awfully long way to go...

[FAH1223]

FAH1223,

I assume you share this opinion?

Yes, I think Stoller has a big point. None of the candidates are going to attack Obama. But Dems refuse to acknowledge his inactions on the prosecution of the Wall Street raiders who destroyed the economy, the Bush administration war criminals who were never brought to justice, his timidity in pushing for truly foundational economic change in the wake of the financial crisis, the rampant market concentration that has strangled the socio-economic life out of most communities across the nation, the expansion of morally derelict and increasingly ungovernable national/border security apparatus, and ultimately, as we're seeing right now, a sizeable cult of personality that stands in opposition to progressive improvements to his administration's work.


Trump is bad, we know it. But we also can't repeat the mistakes of the past whenever the Dems come back into power with the WH, House, and over 55 seats in the US Senate.

[dckingsfan]

FAH1223, I assume you share this opinion?

Yes, I think Stoller has a big point. None of the candidates are going to attack Obama. But Dems refuse to acknowledge his inactions on the prosecution of the Wall Street raiders who destroyed the economy, the Bush administration war criminals who were never brought to justice, his timidity in pushing for truly foundational economic change in the wake of the financial crisis, the rampant market concentration that has strangled the socio-economic life out of most communities across the nation, the expansion of morally derelict and increasingly ungovernable national/border security apparatus, and ultimately, as we're seeing right now, a sizeable cult of personality that stands in opposition to progressive improvements to his administration's work.

Trump is bad, we know it. But we also can't repeat the mistakes of the past whenever the Dems come back into power with the WH, House, and over 55 seats in the US Senate.

Cosign.

But we also can't swing wildly with progressive ideas that have huge unintended consequences. Remember, our healthcare crisis has deep roots in the Ds making. Employer-paid premiums for health insurance are exempt from federal income and payroll taxes and that was one of the big cost drivers (maybe THE driver).

If we were to implement the GND (as is) the consequences would be worse than climate change itself.

And Warren's wealth tax would be a disaster that would eventually just be rolled back (like France and Sweden).

And remember, we want to end the stupid war on drugs and tough on crime, right? But we want to prosecute the Bush administration?

What we need is intelligent progressive policies that get rolled out - not just "big ideas", IMO.

[FAH1223]

FAH1223, I assume you share this opinion?

Yes, I think Stoller has a big point. None of the candidates are going to attack Obama. But Dems refuse to acknowledge his inactions on the prosecution of the Wall Street raiders who destroyed the economy, the Bush administration war criminals who were never brought to justice, his timidity in pushing for truly foundational economic change in the wake of the financial crisis, the rampant market concentration that has strangled the socio-economic life out of most communities across the nation, the expansion of morally derelict and increasingly ungovernable national/border security apparatus, and ultimately, as we're seeing right now, a sizeable cult of personality that stands in opposition to progressive improvements to his administration's work.

Trump is bad, we know it. But we also can't repeat the mistakes of the past whenever the Dems come back into power with the WH, House, and over 55 seats in the US Senate.

Cosign.

But we also can't swing wildly with progressive ideas that have huge unintended consequences. Remember, our healthcare crisis has deep roots in the Ds making. Employer-paid premiums for health insurance are exempt from federal income and payroll taxes and that was one of the big cost drivers (maybe THE driver).

If we were to implement the GND (as is) the consequences would be worse than climate change itself.

And Warren's wealth tax would be a disaster that would eventually just be rolled back (like France and Sweden).

And remember, we want to end the stupid war on drugs and tough on crime, right? But we want to prosecute the Bush administration?

What we need is intelligent progressive policies that get rolled out - not just "big ideas", IMO.

Yes. Torture and the lies of invading Iraq. Ample evidence was there. People like Bolton and Haspel shouldn't be back in government in a normal country. They'd have been prosecuted.

[Kanyewest]

First major poll out has Biden at 32, Sanders at 18, Warren at 8, and Harris at 6. Note it was an online survey.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/

Now I wouldn't draw major conclusions from one poll much like a summer league game.
Although, it looks like Biden won, Warren/Harris lost, and Sanders held pat. I do think that Biden looked pretty vulnerable calling TPP as TTP, bumbling his website. But negative attacks didn't seem to land on Biden. Sanders also appeared to have done better than Warren. I suspect most of her supporters will switch to Bernie if this trend continues. Still, Sanders ideally would probably someone like Harris, Booker, Castro to take a bite out of Biden's numbers as Biden will also probably see some incremental increase with moderates dropping.

Like making a conclusions from one summer league game by Rui, it looks like it will be a Biden vs Sanders run with an uphill battle for Sanders as Biden is seen as the most electable. I don't really think Biden is at this stage of his life although it appears people won't be convinced of that even with poor debate showings or people haven't been paying attention to the debates.

Although still more polls to come out, I am a bit surprised how well someone like Biden is doing and how poorly Warren is.

Eh - I wouldn't take one poll - and you want to watch the trending as well - there is a pretty long way to go.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/

And the Economist poll has it:
Biden 26
Warren 20
Sanders 13
Harris 11
Buttigieg 6

…

Tell your daughter to get out and work for Warren if she wants to make a change. She clearly won the last set of debates - but it will take time for her to trend up. And there is an awfully long way to go...

Hey I love overanalyzing summer league games.

[JWizmentality]

Another insecure, young white male conservative kills a lot of people.