iggymcfrack wrote:Roddy B for 3 wrote:I voted Luka, but since Kyrie vs Draymond is the argument I'm going to say:
If I had the 15th best starter at SG, SF, and C with the 40th best player at backup c, PF, SF, SG, and PG. And you gurantees me that once I picked between Draymond and Kyrie I'd get the 15th best starter at whichever one I didn't choose position, I would pick Draymond.
I say this in theroy. In practice Kyrie might fit better but, I expect PG to be more loaded than PF which gives PF an edge when comparing players.
+ I think Draymond makes teams better and Kyrie has a lot of "empty" stats. (The locker room stuff is the big difference.
Draymond>>Kyrie in defense ='s Kyrie >> Draymond on offense, more or less.
Draymond offense > Kyrie defense.
I would probably still take Kyrie because offense > defense, but locker room Draymond >> Kyrie.
I had Draymond as literally the #1 most kmapctful defensive player in the NBA last year. He’s top 5 at worst. Kyrie’s what, maybe borderline top 10 on offense? Even accounting for offense being more valuable than defense I’d say Dray’s O and Kyrie’s D are pretty comparable in impact. Meanwhile Draymond’s a well above average offensive player, finishing 3rd in the league in assists per game last playoffs. Kyrie’s a clear negative defensively and has consistently made the teams he’s played for worse on that end.
Like if you’re already accounting for offense > defense,
Draymond’s D = Kyrie’s O
Draymond’s O >> Kyrie’s D
If you’re not:
Draymond’s D> Kyrie’s O
Draymond’s O >> Kyrie’s D
Don’t really see how you have them equally distant before accounting for value of offense vs. value of defense. I do agree with what you said about locker room value though. Draymond seems to be one of the best leaders in the entire NBA while Kyrie is probably one of the 5 worst locker room cancers. That absolutely makes a difference if you had them comparable otherwise.
I think the best Kyrie has ever been offensively is more impactful than the best Draymond ever been defensivley. Even if Draymond is #1 on defense and Kyrie is #10 on offense.
Currently the locker room stuff plays out on the court and it's fairly easy to see Irving wasn't a top 10 offensive player last year while Draymond was clearly deserving of an all-deffensive team.
And yeah I agree Draymonds offense is a + while Kyries defense is a -.
If it wasn't for the locker room stuff i'd have Kyrie ahead of Dray but as is they are close but I'd choose 10+ players before Kyrie. I hate that bad locker room crap.
To show how much more I value offense than defense I voted for Luka ahead of Dray and will probably pick Kemba and Beal, and Griffin (if not for injury history) ahead of Draymond
So I probably have Draymond 17 or 18 and Kyrie I probably won't vote top 25.