Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[SF_Warriors]

They are both premium all star level talents, its not like preferring one over the other is necessarily putting down the other. It doesn''t have to be this way.

Personally, I would take luka. As much as I love simmons, and I believe he can be a starter on a championship team, luka is more suited to be a go to option and better, possibly significantly so at spreading the floor.

If luka played with embiid, they would be an incredibly dangerous duo imo.
Maybe irrelevant, but when simmons was the same age as luka currently, he had not even played a single real nba game yet.

And people bringing up luka's shooting efficiency at 19 years old? Go look at what lebron's and KD's shooting percentages when they were rookies. He's going to be a perennial all star.

I can see why people would prefer ben though..6'10 true point guards are just non existent in this league and that presents a lot of matchup advantages on both ends for any team he is on.

Personally, I think they would be a great fit together on the same team, if that could ever happen.

[bon]

Poll is accurate. If Simmons could hit any sort of shot outside of the paint (free throws or mid range even) then there might be an argument in his favor. His defense isn't good enough to put him ahead because he isn't even elite at guarding the position he's listed at (PG).

[XtremeDunkz]

lol at this thread. wow.

[OzThunder]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

So many dumb assumptions and ignoring of common sense here.

Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving get paid because they are elite on offense, and ok on D. Comparing them to an elite defender isn't the same thing. I will agree that there is an offense bias in the game, but you're clearly overstating it.

Firstly just because Simmons doesn't shoot, doens't make him totally inept on offense. 17ppg on 56.3%= Elite. Also he does things other players can't do. He slips baseline and seals when Embiid gets high post catches. He cuts strong off post feeds. He gets deep in the key off drives.

Doncic averaged 4 more ppg on way worse efficiency. Let's not pretend one is an officiando and one is a liability.

[GeorgeMarcus]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

So many dumb assumptions and ignoring of common sense here.

Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving get paid because they are elite on offense, and ok on D. Comparing them to an elite defender isn't the same thing. I will agree that there is an offense bias in the game, but you're clearly overstating it.

Firstly just because Simmons doesn't shoot, doens't make him totally inept on offense. 17ppg on 56.3%= Elite. Also he does things other players can't do. He slips baseline and seals when Embiid gets high post catches. He cuts strong off post feeds. He gets deep in the key off drives.

Doncic averaged 4 more ppg on way worse efficiency. Let's not pretend one is an officiando and one is a liability.

There’s an important reason Kemba/Kyrie are bad examples. They strictly defend guards. Defense is equally important for wings, and even more important than offense for bigs. That’s why Kanter, Boban and Okafor are what they are.

[GeorgeMarcus]

And again, despite not having a jumpshot, Luka only averaged 5 more points as the #1 option on worse effiencency.

What are you on about? Embiid publicly complained when Ben was the nr1 option.

Ignoring the rest of what you said, when did Embiid complain about Simmons being a number 1 option? Simmons was never the #1 option over Embiid.

[NY 567]

If Luka takes the step that many past superstars have from his rookie year to his sophomore year, this won't even be a question. Doncic averaged 21/8/6 as a teenager. Luka has offensively carried a team. Ben has been, at best, the second option on his team, at worst the 3rd or 4th, they don't even have the same offensive responsibilities or defensive coverage from other teams. Imagine Luka playing with Joel, and imagine Ben as the first option playing with Dorian Finney Smith and Maxi Kleber. This is an easy one to call.

[Lalouie]

the upcoming season is still a time of growth. 3 or 4yrs maybe

[Sactowndog]

Luka’s 3 points % should be taken with a context. Only Harden has less assisted 3 pointers. They traded all other 4 starters, so Luka was playing mostly Iso’s after the trade. Put better players around him and his efficiency would skyrocketed.

About D. Rules has changed. Players are allowed to basically do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping the best. Luka is big and strong enough to guard 4th or 5th option of opponents, play good team defense and being very good rebounder for sure helps. Aren’t defensive rebounds part of D?

Simmons needs a jumper, sooner or later. To come there for someone, who is not shooting at all, is very, very difficult, if not impossible. That for sure won’t happen in one summer.

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

To be fair non-existent jump shot is bigger flaw than mediocre defense in modern NBA. Howard, Shaq and Giannis are rare exceptions and Ben is nothing like them. And Giannis actually score 40-50 3 pointers every year.

Luka’s defense is not mediocre. It’s downright bad. Perhaps he will spend the summer and fix it. Given Croatia isn’t in the World Cup it’s possible.

[LukaV]

Luka’s defense is not mediocre. It’s downright bad. Perhaps he will spend the summer and fix it. Given Croatia isn’t in the World Cup it’s possible.

Dončić is Slovenian, not Croatian.

I wouldn't say it's "downright bad", but I do agree that I hope he'll work hard this summer and in the future to become an above-average defender.

[Swish1906]

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

To be fair non-existent jump shot is bigger flaw than mediocre defense in modern NBA. Howard, Shaq and Giannis are rare exceptions and Ben is nothing like them. And Giannis actually score 40-50 3 pointers every year.

Luka’s defense is not mediocre. It’s downright bad. Perhaps he will spend the summer and fix it. Given Croatia isn’t in the World Cup it’s possible.

Provide stats backing your claim

[iggymcfrack]

Simmons. When the offensive numbers are that close, you have to take the player who’s a much better defender.

[leolozon]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

So many dumb assumptions and ignoring of common sense here.

Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving get paid because they are elite on offense, and ok on D. Comparing them to an elite defender isn't the same thing. I will agree that there is an offense bias in the game, but you're clearly overstating it.

Firstly just because Simmons doesn't shoot, doens't make him totally inept on offense. 17ppg on 56.3%= Elite. Also he does things other players can't do. He slips baseline and seals when Embiid gets high post catches. He cuts strong off post feeds. He gets deep in the key off drives.

Doncic averaged 4 more ppg on way worse efficiency. Let's not pretend one is an officiando and one is a liability.

ONe isn't a liability, but I'm not sure .545 v .582 is WAY worse efficiency. Most of us are all assuming that Doncic efficiency will go up next year. Ben Simmons didn't get that much better from year 1 to 2, but his efficiency still went up from .557 to .582 TS%. Also points are points, but 70% of Simmons shot are within 3 feet and having Embiid on the team certainly help getting Simmons open shots.

Most people assume that getting help will make Doncic more efficient. After all, Doncic was getting double-teamed really often because there was no other options. While Porzingis is in no way as good as Embiid, it will help.

I still think that both guys will be in between the 18-25 best players in the league next year, so really close to one another.

[Bob8]

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

To be fair non-existent jump shot is bigger flaw than mediocre defense in modern NBA. Howard, Shaq and Giannis are rare exceptions and Ben is nothing like them. And Giannis actually score 40-50 3 pointers every year.

Luka’s defense is not mediocre. It’s downright bad. Perhaps he will spend the summer and fix it. Given Croatia isn’t in the World Cup it’s possible.

Luka is not from Croatia. Nobody will care about his D. If he manages to come near 25/8/8. You can always use 6’8”, very good rebounder in D.

[Yallbecrazy]

Simmons for me, he's just so good defensively.
Doncic may be better in the playoffs since teams can't completely change their style of play in the regular season the way they do in the playoffs to exploit Simmons' shooting.
Regular season Simmons is still a very good weapon on offense despite his shooting and one of the best defenders in the league.

I'm also one of the biggest Luka homers there are, just think Simmons stock has fallen so low that it represents insane value currently.
I take Doncic for his career easily though

[Sactowndog]

To be fair non-existent jump shot is bigger flaw than mediocre defense in modern NBA. Howard, Shaq and Giannis are rare exceptions and Ben is nothing like them. And Giannis actually score 40-50 3 pointers every year.

Luka’s defense is not mediocre. It’s downright bad. Perhaps he will spend the summer and fix it. Given Croatia isn’t in the World Cup it’s possible.

Luka is not from Croatia. Nobody will care about his D. If he manages to come near 25/8/8. You can always use 6’8”, very good rebounder in D.

My bad Slovenia. The point is the same. He has the whole summer to work on his game. And if the Mavs want to win, Luka has to play better D.

[Swish1906]

Luka’s defense is not mediocre. It’s downright bad. Perhaps he will spend the summer and fix it. Given Croatia isn’t in the World Cup it’s possible.

Luka is not from Croatia. Nobody will care about his D. If he manages to come near 25/8/8. You can always use 6’8”, very good rebounder in D.

My bad Slovenia. The point is the same. He has the whole summer to work on his game. And if the Mavs want to win, Luka has to play better D.

Again: Provide stats backing your claim of his terrible defense

[Sactowndog]

Luka is not from Croatia. Nobody will care about his D. If he manages to come near 25/8/8. You can always use 6’8”, very good rebounder in D.

My bad Slovenia. The point is the same. He has the whole summer to work on his game. And if the Mavs want to win, Luka has to play better D.

Again: Provide stats backing your claim of his terrible defense

Did you watch a Mavs game last year. Carlisle hid him on defense the entire game.

[nikster]

My bad Slovenia. The point is the same. He has the whole summer to work on his game. And if the Mavs want to win, Luka has to play better D.

Again: Provide stats backing your claim of his terrible defense

Did you watch a Mavs game last year. Carlisle hid him on defense the entire game.

but thats the thing about being a bad defender, its easier to hide. If Luka can gaurd the 4th or 5 best player on the other team and not negatively impact his teams defense, thats all you really need from a 1st offensive option

[Swish1906]

My bad Slovenia. The point is the same. He has the whole summer to work on his game. And if the Mavs want to win, Luka has to play better D.

Again: Provide stats backing your claim of his terrible defense

Did you watch a Mavs game last year. Carlisle hid him on defense the entire game.

I watched around 70. You as a Kings fan saw what, 10-15?

And its also called "saving energy". In the 2nd half of the season Lukas usage rate skyrocked into the 30s, Harden territory. After playing two years with basically zero summer rest. So its normal to try to make it easier for your heavy usage go to guy. Hell, the Heat did it with Lebron in 2011, when they never put him on Dirk.

Luka had a 1.2 DPBM btw. Yes, defensive stats are always much more questionable than offensive stats but his defense was solid, he knows how to use his body. Yeah, he had problem against the fast guards but that was the same with Harrison Barnes. So its nothing like you are claiming with "terrible" blabla

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