The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[vaff87]

I honestly don’t know why people give ratul the time of day. This guy went on about the value of defense, and whined and whined and claimed Shapiro doesn’t care about it. And then he proceeded to say the Jays should have kept Donaldson, and then moved him at age 33 to SS to accommodate Vladdy.

When you say something that contradictory and ridiculous, you’re either flat out trolling or absolutely clueless. Either way, not worth the time of day.

[phillipmike]

I honestly don’t know why people give ratul the time of day. This guy went on about the value of defense, and whined and whined and claimed Shapiro doesn’t care about it. And then he proceeded to say the Jays should have kept Donaldson, and then moved him at age 33 to SS to accommodate Vladdy.

When you say something that contradictory and ridiculous, you’re either flat out trolling or absolutely clueless. Either way, not worth the time of day.

It’s clear he doesn’t know baseball. As you say, it’s better not to give him/her the time of day.

[BigLeagueChew]

Boy, what a different take on this. I’ll take vladdy, Noah, travis d, stroman, pillar Sanchez and osuna over what shats has done unless Bo is Lou Gehrig.

Would you settle for Cal Ripken?

Your pal AA traded Noah.

Pillar can't hit but has a skill that you like seeing, making diving catches and you need superman in your life.

Travis d'arnaud?

Osuna, domestic violence

[vaff87]

Boy, what a different take on this. I’ll take vladdy, Noah, travis d, stroman, pillar Sanchez and osuna over what shats has done unless Bo is Lou Gehrig.

Would you settle for Cal Ripken?

Your pal AA traded Noah.

Pillar can't hit but has a skill that you like seeing, making diving catches and you need superman in your life.

Travis d'arnaud?

Osuna, domestic violence

I don’t know what he’s getting on with. But, like, what does Travis d’Arnaud have to do with anything, anyway? He was the best player AA got in return for the best pitcher in franchise history, and then he proceeded to trade him for a 38 year old knuckleballer. What about that does AA deserve credit for?

[Schad]

I think that he did well in terms of present value on the Halladay trade under the circumstances, but that deal doesn't look spectacular in retrospect: beyond d'Arnaud (whose career has been derailed by injury), we got Kyle Drabek and Brett Wallace (via the Michael Taylor trade), and neither of the other two produced while d'Arnaud was part of a much worse trade.

By the by, the Phillies were believed to have a rather strong farm system in 2010...this was their top ten entering the year per BA:

Year Rank MLB Player Name
2010 1 15 Domonic Brown
2010 2 25 Kyle Drabek
2010 3 29 Michael Taylor
2010 4 81 Travis D'Arnaud
2010 5 Trevor May
2010 6 Anthony Gose
2010 7 Sebastian Valle
2010 8 Jarred Cosart
2010 9 Antonio Bastardo
2010 10 Domingo Santana

Nearly a decade later, poor star-crossed d'Arnaud is the only regular left in the majors.

[BigLeagueChew]

I don’t know what he’s getting on with. But, like, what does Travis d’Arnaud have to do with anything, anyway? He was the best player AA got in return for the best pitcher in franchise history, and then he proceeded to trade him for a 38 year old knuckleballer. What about that does AA deserve credit for?

Maybe D'arnaud's recent success makes him suggestible to some fans. While he's having a good year his next injury is overdue. i doubt we would have made the playoffs without Russell Martin and some pitching that has climbed the mountain before(last a whole season), that's all i'd give credit for.

[vaff87]

I don’t know what he’s getting on with. But, like, what does Travis d’Arnaud have to do with anything, anyway? He was the best player AA got in return for the best pitcher in franchise history, and then he proceeded to trade him for a 38 year old knuckleballer. What about that does AA deserve credit for?

Maybe D'arnaud's recent success makes him suggestible to some fans. While he's having a good year his next injury is overdue. i doubt we would have made the playoffs without Russell Martin and some pitching that has climbed the mountain before(last a whole season), that's all i'd give credit for.

True. But I just don’t know why AA should get credit for him in any way. He didn’t draft him, and he gave him up in a terrible trade.

[dagger]

I don’t know what he’s getting on with. But, like, what does Travis d’Arnaud have to do with anything, anyway? He was the best player AA got in return for the best pitcher in franchise history, and then he proceeded to trade him for a 38 year old knuckleballer. What about that does AA deserve credit for?

Maybe D'arnaud's recent success makes him suggestible to some fans. While he's having a good year his next injury is overdue. i doubt we would have made the playoffs without Russel Martin and some pitching that has climbed the mountain before.

D'Arnaud wasn't drafted. Drafting success is the crux of what I was looking at. AA had far more high picks to work with, by virtue of the system in place at the time, and didn't really achieve a notable conversion rate for those picks. He had a combination of high and low firsts. His highest firsts were McGuire, Hoffman and Pentacost. McGuire was a bust, Pentacost never made it higher than AA (we'll put that down to injuries as much as anything) and Hoffman has had a flirtation with the Colorado rotation every year since 2016 without sticking. Pentacost was a comp pick for failing to sign Tyler Beede IIRC. (Beede is on the Giants roster now, having been drafted by them in 2014, and is having a decent but not spectacular season, but should have some additional upside as he gains experience. He's 26 now). You would hope, however, if you had a pair of #10 picks and a #11 you should have a better record than that. At this stage, the current administration has had one high first rounder - Alek Manoah - and I believe there's a pretty good chance he gas a better career than Hoffman or Beede.

[Black Watch]

I honestly don’t know why people give ratul the time of day.

Without his trolling, this board would be derelict.

[polo007]

Blue Jays president Mark Shapiro sympathizes with fans’ frustrations but suggests ‘winning will fix everything’ - The Athletic

But to complement the position player core, the team’s most pressing need remains starting pitching.

Currently, the team employs a starting rotation that features four pitchers 25 years old or younger with none having more than a year of experience in the majors. In terms of what is in the current system, Shapiro viewed the current four-man group of Trent Thornton, Jacob Waguespack, Thomas Pannone, Sean Reid-Foley plus the injured Ryan Borucki as the first wave of pitchers in the system with a chance to be a part of the future.

Those names are followed by: Nate Pearson (Double A), Julian Merryweather (IL), Patrick Murphy (Double A), Yennsy Diaz (Double A), T.J. Zeuch (Triple A), Hector Perez (Double A) and behind them, Joey Murray (Double A), Zach Logue (Double A), Simeon Woods Richardson (High A), Maximo Castillo (High A), Eric Pardinho (Low A), Alek Manoah (rookie), Adam Kloffenstein (rookie).

With starting pitching, there is always uncertainty. Some young arms from that list above will pan out, and some will falter. Others from that group will get injured while surely an unheralded arm no one is talking about right now will emerge along the way. The team will also no doubt have to acquire veteran pitchers in free agency or by trade to build a rotation that can contend, too. But as Shapiro sees it, from that group of pitchers he listed, the team needs at least a few of them to work out.

“We’ve got to figure out at a minimum three starters from that entire group in a championship window,” he said. “And then recognize that we’re going to either sign for or trade for a couple of starters, that’s just the reality. And then some of those guys will end up being bullpen guys, that’s just what happens as well.”

Shapiro acknowledged that the team could supplement its core this offseason — and certainly, it’ll have to at least a little, especially along the margins — but also noted that the upcoming winter is not a particularly strong free-agent class. He also wouldn’t say what exactly the Blue Jays plan to do this offseason, instead using the justification that the next eight weeks need to play out before he can answer that.

Still, he did offer that the obvious place to add is pitching, both starters and relievers.

But the challenge for the team moving forward is not only figuring out what to add but also when to add it. In other words, determining when they’ve seen enough of a young player to move on from him or whether the rope needs to be extended further.

[ratul]

I honestly don’t know why people give ratul the time of day. This guy went on about the value of defense, and whined and whined and claimed Shapiro doesn’t care about it. And then he proceeded to say the Jays should have kept Donaldson, and then moved him at age 33 to SS to accommodate Vladdy.

When you say something that contradictory and ridiculous, you’re either flat out trolling or absolutely clueless. Either way, not worth the time of day.

Donaldson would be an upgrade on defense since we were last in 2018 in defense and second last this year. Seriously, pal.

[ratul]

Boy, what a different take on this. I’ll take vladdy, Noah, travis d, stroman, pillar Sanchez and osuna over what shats has done unless Bo is Lou Gehrig.

Would you settle for Cal Ripken?

Your pal AA traded Noah.

Pillar can't hit but has a skill that you like seeing, making diving catches and you need superman in your life.

Travis d'arnaud?

Osuna, domestic violence

First
First
First
First

Double AA’s team record the last four seasons of baseball.

By comparison, messrs Shatkins
Fourth
Fourth
Fourth
Second

Shatkins hasn’t won a division title in a decade. But ok, let’s nitpik on AA’s record

[ratul]

I honestly don’t know why people give ratul the time of day. This guy went on about the value of defense, and whined and whined and claimed Shapiro doesn’t care about it. And then he proceeded to say the Jays should have kept Donaldson, and then moved him at age 33 to SS to accommodate Vladdy.

When you say something that contradictory and ridiculous, you’re either flat out trolling or absolutely clueless. Either way, not worth the time of day.

It’s clear he doesn’t know baseball. As you say, it’s better not to give him/her the time of day.

Ha, totally pal. We should give the shats an extension. What an amazing job these geniuses have done. Tell em you said so.

[polo007]

SIMMONS: Who’s No. 5 all-time: Beliveau or Sid The Kid? | Toronto Sun

Why don’t the Blue Jays make better trades? Or even good trades?

I asked a former major league executive that question the other night and he, too, has been underwhelmed by the trading history of the Jays since Ross Atkins took over as general manager working under team president Mark Shapiro.

“For one thing, they don’t include enough teams when they’re talking trade,” he said. “It’s not like the old days, where everybody got on the phone and talked to everybody. Now it’s all text messages back and forth. And from what I understand, they’re not very active in who they talk to and how they go about doing it.”

The former exec wasn’t impressed, for example, with the Marcus Stroman trade for two reasons. One, the timing of it. He thought you make the deal early only if you’re getting a great return. If not, you wait to see who else is going to offer what at the last minute. Considering the return (rather spotty, he thought) you could have waited a few days and see what might shake out. You create more demand that way.”

One other point was made about the Blue Jays trading: They rely more on analytics in dealing than they do on scouting. That may be the more modern approach. Not everybody believes in it. One of the problems with analytic breakdowns, according to the former executive, is they don’t accurately gauge defensive play.

And in many of the Jays trades over the past few years they have acquired players who were adequate to below-average defensively.

[ratul]

SIMMONS: Who’s No. 5 all-time: Beliveau or Sid The Kid? | Toronto Sun

Why don’t the Blue Jays make better trades? Or even good trades?

I asked a former major league executive that question the other night and he, too, has been underwhelmed by the trading history of the Jays since Ross Atkins took over as general manager working under team president Mark Shapiro.

“For one thing, they don’t include enough teams when they’re talking trade,” he said. “It’s not like the old days, where everybody got on the phone and talked to everybody. Now it’s all text messages back and forth. And from what I understand, they’re not very active in who they talk to and how they go about doing it.”

The former exec wasn’t impressed, for example, with the Marcus Stroman trade for two reasons. One, the timing of it. He thought you make the deal early only if you’re getting a great return. If not, you wait to see who else is going to offer what at the last minute. Considering the return (rather spotty, he thought) you could have waited a few days and see what might shake out. You create more demand that way.”

One other point was made about the Blue Jays trading: They rely more on analytics in dealing than they do on scouting. That may be the more modern approach. Not everybody believes in it. One of the problems with analytic breakdowns, according to the former executive, is they don’t accurately gauge defensive play.

And in many of the Jays trades over the past few years they have acquired players who were adequate to below-average defensively.

Exactly. As I have been saying, shats doesn’t value defense.

[BigLeagueChew]

First
First
First
First

Double AA’s team record the last four seasons of baseball.

By comparison, messrs Shatkins
Fourth
Fourth
Fourth
Second

Shatkins hasn’t won a division title in a decade. But ok, let’s nitpik on AA’s record

I didn't nitpick on anyone's record.

[VanWest82]

Wait, what? All our recent deals were based more on analytics than scouting? I'm speechless.

I will push back on one thing though: this theory that you wait and extract better returns at the deadline. Maybe, or maybe you wait and the team that was going to give you the best offer moves on and you're left trying to up the next best offer from less teams at the bargaining table who are still interested in your player. I thought it was noteworthy that for all the talk about trading with the Yankees that in the end they stood pat.

[phillipmike]

I think that he did well in terms of present value on the Halladay trade under the circumstances, but that deal doesn't look spectacular in retrospect: beyond d'Arnaud (whose career has been derailed by injury), we got Kyle Drabek and Brett Wallace (via the Michael Taylor trade), and neither of the other two produced while d'Arnaud was part of a much worse trade.

By the by, the Phillies were believed to have a rather strong farm system in 2010...this was their top ten entering the year per BA:

Year Rank MLB Player Name
2010 1 15 Domonic Brown
2010 2 25 Kyle Drabek
2010 3 29 Michael Taylor
2010 4 81 Travis D'Arnaud
2010 5 Trevor May
2010 6 Anthony Gose
2010 7 Sebastian Valle
2010 8 Jarred Cosart
2010 9 Antonio Bastardo
2010 10 Domingo Santana

Nearly a decade later, poor star-crossed d'Arnaud is the only regular left in the majors.

Santana is still with Seattle.

It’s amazing how this system turned out. The Phillies was so up tight about dealing these prospects back in 2009-2010. And ten years later none really planned out. Maybe you can say Santana did.

[wamco]

SIMMONS: Who’s No. 5 all-time: Beliveau or Sid The Kid? | Toronto Sun

Why don’t the Blue Jays make better trades? Or even good trades?

I asked a former major league executive that question the other night and he, too, has been underwhelmed by the trading history of the Jays since Ross Atkins took over as general manager working under team president Mark Shapiro.

“For one thing, they don’t include enough teams when they’re talking trade,” he said. “It’s not like the old days, where everybody got on the phone and talked to everybody. Now it’s all text messages back and forth. And from what I understand, they’re not very active in who they talk to and how they go about doing it.”

The former exec wasn’t impressed, for example, with the Marcus Stroman trade for two reasons. One, the timing of it. He thought you make the deal early only if you’re getting a great return. If not, you wait to see who else is going to offer what at the last minute. Considering the return (rather spotty, he thought) you could have waited a few days and see what might shake out. You create more demand that way.”

One other point was made about the Blue Jays trading: They rely more on analytics in dealing than they do on scouting. That may be the more modern approach. Not everybody believes in it. One of the problems with analytic breakdowns, according to the former executive, is they don’t accurately gauge defensive play.

And in many of the Jays trades over the past few years they have acquired players who were adequate to below-average defensively.

I’d argue that advanced analytics overvalue defense actually. I’m sick of seeing “3 WAR” players that can’t hit for hit

[wamco]

Hit for “****” rather