Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[JDR720]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

[SF_Warriors]

ONe isn't a liability, but I'm not sure .545 v .582 is WAY worse efficiency. Most of us are all assuming that Doncic efficiency will go up next year. Ben Simmons didn't get that much better from year 1 to 2, but his efficiency still went up from .557 to .582 TS%. Also points are points, but 70% of Simmons shot are within 3 feet and having Embiid on the team certainly help getting Simmons open shots.

Most people assume that getting help will make Doncic more efficient. After all, Doncic was getting double-teamed really often because there was no other options. While Porzingis is in no way as good as Embiid, it will help.

I still think that both guys will be in between the 18-25 best players in the league next year, so really close to one another.

A 19 year old coming in as a number one option averaging 54.5% TS bodes very well..anyone saying different lacks understnding of nba basketball, period.

Be careful. Anyone who makes false inferences is known to be a poo poo head.

How many 19 year old perimeter players come in to the league, lead the team in scoring, and at that type of efficiency..it just does not happen often..so it bodes well.

[kulaz3000]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

I voted for Doncic, but you're statement about Doncic being able to do everything Simmons can do, plus shoot is incorrect. Simmons is far and away the better defender, it's not remotely close.

[OzThunder]

A 19 year old coming in as a number one option averaging 54.5% TS bodes very well..anyone saying different lacks understnding of nba basketball, period.

Be careful. Anyone who makes false inferences is known to be a poo poo head.

How many 19 year old perimeter players come in to the league, lead the team in scoring, and at that type of efficiency..it just does not happen often..so it bodes well.

You amuse me.

You say things that are kinda on topic but also irrelevant, but do it with such vigour. Well done. At what point did I talk negatively about Doncic?

Anyone who can't read context knows nothing about basketball, period.

[kulaz3000]

While athletic ability doesn't predicate whether you will be a good or great player, however, it is an additional tool a player can utlized as said player fulfills their potential. The same applies for physical attributes like wing span, height etc. There is a reason why people say if Isiah Thomas with his tenacity, ball handling, speed etc. could have been the greatest player if he was 6'6, because it matters.

If you look at the greatest players of all time, there are plenty players who were great on one end of the floor, and those players are seemingly the lesser athletic players, whereas you see the two-way greats, they are usually more physically gifted and that's because they have a greater edge and more tools to utilize to their advantage.

That said, I voted Doncic, because his fundamentals are so advanced for his age, that he is more likely to make a bigger jump next season than Simmons. It doesn't mean that Simmons can't ultimately have a better overall career, because Simmons could make minor improvements over the years, and Doncic could plateu earlier, you just never know. I've said in other threads, I'm not convinced that Doncic will have the best career in his own draft class, but that's another discussion all together.

[Pg81]

He is faster, more athletic, jumps higher.
He is just a better athlete overall.
He as well is deadly on open floor and he is better in that than Luka. And his "only problem" is that he can't be a superb point guard because he does not shoot... "Only" is in quotes because lack of shooting makes him limited in a lot of other areas and therefore Luka is better.

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

If he had done that in the NBA then great but I’m not here to argue Euroleague vs NCAA. Simmons was the better player last year in the league that matters.

Euroleague matters, it is far superior to the NCAA and Doncic was merely 18/19 at the time. So far Doncic has won a title in a grown up league, MvP and RoY. What exactly has Simmons to show for so far?

Nah, it doesn't matter any more than NCAA. Simmons won ROY (just like Luka) and was an All-Star in his 2nd season, which Luka will have to do to keep up. He did that on a winning team that won a playoff series both years. Fringe All-Defensive player to boot. Advantage Ben

NCAA is a boys league, Euroleague is a grown up league that would trash any NCAA team, so that is utter nonsense. Luka was almost already an all star this year, unless he regresses him becoming an all star is a given. So no advantage to Ben, who has made zero progress in two years in terms of shooting and is already 3 years older.

While athletic ability doesn't predicate whether you will be a good or great player, however, it is an additional tool a player can utlized as said player fulfills their potential. The same applies for physical attributes like wing span, height etc. There is a reason why people say if Isiah Thomas with his tenacity, ball handling, speed etc. could have been the greatest player if he was 6'6, because it matters.

If you look at the greatest players of all time, there are plenty players who were great on one end of the floor, and those players are seemingly the lesser athletic players, whereas you see the two-way greats, they are usually more physically gifted and that's because they have a greater edge and more tools to utilize to their advantage.

That said, I voted Doncic, because his fundamentals are so advanced for his age, that he is more likely to make a bigger jump next season than Simmons. It doesn't mean that Simmons can't ultimately have a better overall career, because Simmons could make minor improvements over the years, and Doncic could plateu earlier, you just never know. I've said in other threads, I'm not convinced that Doncic will have the best career in his own draft class, but that's another discussion all together.

Another one of those ifs. If Larry Bird had Clyde Drexler athleticism he would have been the greatest of all time. If Magic Johnson could have defended like Rodman he would have been the greatest of all time. All this if-talk means jack. What matters are actual results. Two-way players are not necessarily better than one-way players and I have already given a list of all time great players with limited athleticism which I can expand upon. All meaningless speculation. The matter of fact is that Doncic is already a superior scorer while being 3 years younger. He came into the NBA after having played professional basketball for three years with hardly any rest, got his core team traded away completely, struggling with a lingering knee injury and was a bit out of shape due to him having hardly any time to rest. While Doncic is a worse defender overall he is already a capable help defender, he has length, he can rebound, so it really is just man to man defense he is worse at.

[reflex35]

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.




Euroleague matters, it is far superior to the NCAA and Doncic was merely 18/19 at the time. So far Doncic has won a title in a grown up league, MvP and RoY. What exactly has Simmons to show for so far?

Nah, it doesn't matter any more than NCAA. Simmons won ROY (just like Luka) and was an All-Star in his 2nd season, which Luka will have to do to keep up. He did that on a winning team that won a playoff series both years. Fringe All-Defensive player to boot. Advantage Ben

NCAA is a boys league, Euroleague is a grown up league that would trash any NCAA team, so that is utter nonsense. Luka was almost already an all star this year, unless he regresses him becoming an all star is a given. So no advantage to Ben, who has made zero progress in two years in terms of shooting and is already 3 years older.

With this I totally agree. Euroleague is a serious league. There is no comparison to NCAA.
Mediocre Euroleague teams would crush best NCAA teams. Euroleague is the second strongest basketball league in the world.
I don't know why people think that there is even a comparison between NCAA and Euroleague. Boys playing against men...? Luka was playing agains grown ups.

[Tomjas]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

I voted for Doncic, but you're statement about Doncic being able to do everything Simmons can do, plus shoot is incorrect. Simmons is far and away the better defender, it's not remotely close.

Rebounding and passing is not remotely close either

Dallas tanked last year and will probably miss the playoffs this year

Wouldn’t happen with Simmons

[picc]

Luka is worth two ben simmons'.

[reflex35]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

I voted for Doncic, but you're statement about Doncic being able to do everything Simmons can do, plus shoot is incorrect. Simmons is far and away the better defender, it's not remotely close.

Rebounding and passing is not remotely close either

Dallas tanked last year and will probably miss the playoffs this year

Wouldn’t happen with Simmons

First two sentences are partly true.
Not "being remotely close" is an overstatement as Luka's rebounding and passing skills are close to Ben's.

But this one - "would not happen with Simmons".... Do you really think this? Do you think that Ben would have done more when Luka last year with the same Dallas team?
Please...

[Tomjas]

I voted for Doncic, but you're statement about Doncic being able to do everything Simmons can do, plus shoot is incorrect. Simmons is far and away the better defender, it's not remotely close.

Rebounding and passing is not remotely close either

Dallas tanked last year and will probably miss the playoffs this year

Wouldn’t happen with Simmons

First two sentences are partly true.
Not "being remotely close" is an overstatement as Luka's rebounding and passing skills are close to Ben's.

But this one - "would not happen with Simmons".... Do you really think this? Do you think that Ben would have done more when Luka last year with the same Dallas team?
Please...

Just lol

Sixers won 38 games in 2 seasons before Simmons took the court

Next 2 years, they made the 2nd round

He has the 3rd best all around stats in the history of the NBA through 2 years and yet he gets criticised for not winning the whole thing

Meanwhile, Dallas tanked last year and are unlikely to make the playoffs the playoffs this year so will tank again

There’s no comparison and especially when you see them playing against each other

Luka is an excellent young player but also the most overrated

[HeartBreakKid]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

Simmons has the potential to be a defensive anchor, that isn't something Luka can do.

[reflex35]

Rebounding and passing is not remotely close either

Dallas tanked last year and will probably miss the playoffs this year

Wouldn’t happen with Simmons

First two sentences are partly true.
Not "being remotely close" is an overstatement as Luka's rebounding and passing skills are close to Ben's.

But this one - "would not happen with Simmons".... Do you really think this? Do you think that Ben would have done more when Luka last year with the same Dallas team?
Please...

Just lol

Sixers won 38 games in 2 seasons before Simmons took the court

Next 2 years, they made the 2nd round

He has the 3rd best all around stats in the history of the NBA through 2 years and yet he gets criticised for not winning the whole thing

Meanwhile, Dallas tanked last year and are unlikely to make the playoffs the playoffs this year so will tank again

There’s no comparison and especially when you see them playing against each other

So Simmons is the only reason why they went from 38 to 2nd round exists?
Just look at what happened during those 2 years and what kind of players they added and had in those 2 years... Look that Embid started playing better and more, etc...

Don't even compare last year's Dallas team to Sixers teams for the last 2 years..

Now think about it and swap Doncic with Simmons last year.
With Doncic Sixers are beating Toronto. With Simmons Dalas are even worse record wise.

I love Ben and he is extremely good but you are putting him on some-kind of pedestal.

[Tomjas]

First two sentences are partly true.
Not "being remotely close" is an overstatement as Luka's rebounding and passing skills are close to Ben's.

But this one - "would not happen with Simmons".... Do you really think this? Do you think that Ben would have done more when Luka last year with the same Dallas team?
Please...

Just lol

Sixers won 38 games in 2 seasons before Simmons took the court

Next 2 years, they made the 2nd round

He has the 3rd best all around stats in the history of the NBA through 2 years and yet he gets criticised for not winning the whole thing

Meanwhile, Dallas tanked last year and are unlikely to make the playoffs the playoffs this year so will tank again

There’s no comparison and especially when you see them playing against each other

So Simmons is the only reason why they went from 38 to 2nd round exists?
Just look at what happened during those 2 years and what kind of players they added and had in those 2 years... Look that Embid started playing better and more, etc...

Don't even compare last year's Dallas team to Sixers teams for the last 2 years..

Now think about it and swap Doncic with Simmons last year.
With Doncic Sixers are beating Toronto. With Simmons Dalas are even worse record wise.

I love Ben and he is extremely good but you are putting him on some-kind of pedestal.

Dream on

Who can Luka defend on the Raptors?

Answer: literally nobody

You are putting him on a pedestal in spite of him being a tank commander in Dallas

He’s a very good youngster but that’s it

Here’s a fact

Vegas odds have Dallas missing the playoffs

Luka & KP aren’t that good

[reflex35]

Just lol

Sixers won 38 games in 2 seasons before Simmons took the court

Next 2 years, they made the 2nd round

He has the 3rd best all around stats in the history of the NBA through 2 years and yet he gets criticised for not winning the whole thing

Meanwhile, Dallas tanked last year and are unlikely to make the playoffs the playoffs this year so will tank again

There’s no comparison and especially when you see them playing against each other

So Simmons is the only reason why they went from 38 to 2nd round exists?
Just look at what happened during those 2 years and what kind of players they added and had in those 2 years... Look that Embid started playing better and more, etc...

Don't even compare last year's Dallas team to Sixers teams for the last 2 years..

Now think about it and swap Doncic with Simmons last year.
With Doncic Sixers are beating Toronto. With Simmons Dalas are even worse record wise.

I love Ben and he is extremely good but you are putting him on some-kind of pedestal.

Dream on

Who can Luka defend on the Raptors?

Answer: literally nobody

You are putting him on a pedestal in spite of him being a tank commander in Dallas

He’s a very good youngster but that’s it

Here’s a fact

Vegas odds have Dallas missing the playoffs

Luka & KP aren’t that good

What do you mean who can Luka defend on Raptors?
Who on raptors was an offensive juggernaut with the exception of Kawhi? Did Siakam become a great offensive player overnight? And that's a really good player and a second option..
Or we are talking about Lowry, old Gasol, Washed-up Ibaka being superstars offensively and should be scared about them?

Vegas odds are fine. West is stacked. No-one knows in what kind of form/shape KP will be upon returning...
Give them a year or two and if KP is the player he was when it will be a different story.

Plus West and East are two different things.
What teams do you have in East that making the playoffs is an accomplishment? There are literally 4 good/great teams: Bucks, Sixers, Boston, Celtics... That's all this year.. All the other teams would not even sniff playoffs in the West...

[reflex35]

So Simmons is the only reason why they went from 38 to 2nd round exists?
Just look at what happened during those 2 years and what kind of players they added and had in those 2 years... Look that Embid started playing better and more, etc...

Don't even compare last year's Dallas team to Sixers teams for the last 2 years..

Now think about it and swap Doncic with Simmons last year.
With Doncic Sixers are beating Toronto. With Simmons Dalas are even worse record wise.

I love Ben and he is extremely good but you are putting him on some-kind of pedestal.

Dream on

Who can Luka defend on the Raptors?

Answer: literally nobody

You are putting him on a pedestal in spite of him being a tank commander in Dallas

He’s a very good youngster but that’s it

Here’s a fact

Vegas odds have Dallas missing the playoffs

Luka & KP aren’t that good

What do you mean who can Luka defend on Raptors?
Who on raptors was an offensive juggernaut with the exception of Kawhi? Did Siakam become a great offensive player overnight? And that's a really good player and a second option..
Or we are talking about Lowry, old Gasol, Washed-up Ibaka being superstars offensively and should be scared about them?

Vegas odds are fine. West is stacked. No-one knows in what kind of form/shape KP will be upon returning...
Give them a year or two and if KP is the player he was when it will be a different story.

Plus West and East are two different things.
What teams do you have in East that making the playoffs is an accomplishment? There are literally 4 good/great teams: Bucks, Sixers, Boston, Celtics... That's all this year.. All the other teams would not even sniff playoffs in the West...

And don't bring me Nets until I see KD returning. They are nothing even with Kyrie.

[Tomjas]

So Simmons is the only reason why they went from 38 to 2nd round exists?
Just look at what happened during those 2 years and what kind of players they added and had in those 2 years... Look that Embid started playing better and more, etc...

Don't even compare last year's Dallas team to Sixers teams for the last 2 years..

Now think about it and swap Doncic with Simmons last year.
With Doncic Sixers are beating Toronto. With Simmons Dalas are even worse record wise.

I love Ben and he is extremely good but you are putting him on some-kind of pedestal.

Dream on

Who can Luka defend on the Raptors?

Answer: literally nobody

You are putting him on a pedestal in spite of him being a tank commander in Dallas

He’s a very good youngster but that’s it

Here’s a fact

Vegas odds have Dallas missing the playoffs

Luka & KP aren’t that good

What do you mean who can Luka defend on Raptors?
Who on raptors was an offensive juggernaut with the exception of Kawhi? Did Siakam become a great offensive player overnight? And that's a really good player and a second option..
Or we are talking about Lowry, old Gasol, Washed-up Ibaka being superstars offensively and should be scared about them?

Vegas odds are fine. West is stacked. No-one knows in what kind of form/shape KP will be upon returning...
Give them a year or two and if KP is the player he was when it will be a different story.

Plus West and East are two different things.
What teams do you have in East that making the playoffs is an accomplishment? There are literally 4 good/great teams: Bucks, Sixers, Boston, Celtics... That's all this year.. All the other teams would not even sniff playoffs in the West...

Dallas sucks

8-10 seed in East at best

[nurseryc]

Doncic. He can do anything Simmons can do + shoot. Its a bit of a cliche, but he has a star mentality too. Im not sure Simmons does.

Simmons is better than Doncic at everything other than shooting beyond the keyway. Simmons has DPOY potential on the defensive end and is already elite, Doncic in comparison in a polite way does not have that potential and is a limited defensive player

[reflex35]

Dream on

Who can Luka defend on the Raptors?

Answer: literally nobody

You are putting him on a pedestal in spite of him being a tank commander in Dallas

He’s a very good youngster but that’s it

Here’s a fact

Vegas odds have Dallas missing the playoffs

Luka & KP aren’t that good

What do you mean who can Luka defend on Raptors?
Who on raptors was an offensive juggernaut with the exception of Kawhi? Did Siakam become a great offensive player overnight? And that's a really good player and a second option..
Or we are talking about Lowry, old Gasol, Washed-up Ibaka being superstars offensively and should be scared about them?

Vegas odds are fine. West is stacked. No-one knows in what kind of form/shape KP will be upon returning...
Give them a year or two and if KP is the player he was when it will be a different story.

Plus West and East are two different things.
What teams do you have in East that making the playoffs is an accomplishment? There are literally 4 good/great teams: Bucks, Sixers, Boston, Celtics... That's all this year.. All the other teams would not even sniff playoffs in the West...

Dallas sucks

8-10 seed in East at best

Yeah they might have sucked but here is how it went in 2019

East playoffs seeds 2019

6. Brooklyn
7. Orlando
8. Detroit

Results of 2019 matches

MAVS VS ORLANDO 1-1
MAVS VS BROOKLYN 1-1
MAVS VS Detroit 1-1

So these are your super-teams which had 6-8 seeding in the East last year. Mavs record agains them was .50
Now they added KP.
And you still think they are 8-10 seed in the east..
You need to bring some clarity to your thinking...

[Tomjas]

What do you mean who can Luka defend on Raptors?
Who on raptors was an offensive juggernaut with the exception of Kawhi? Did Siakam become a great offensive player overnight? And that's a really good player and a second option..
Or we are talking about Lowry, old Gasol, Washed-up Ibaka being superstars offensively and should be scared about them?

Vegas odds are fine. West is stacked. No-one knows in what kind of form/shape KP will be upon returning...
Give them a year or two and if KP is the player he was when it will be a different story.

Plus West and East are two different things.
What teams do you have in East that making the playoffs is an accomplishment? There are literally 4 good/great teams: Bucks, Sixers, Boston, Celtics... That's all this year.. All the other teams would not even sniff playoffs in the West...

Dallas sucks

8-10 seed in East at best

Yeah they might have sucked but here is how it went in 2019

East playoffs seeds 2019

6. Brooklyn
7. Orlando
8. Detroit

Results of 2019 matches

MAVS VS ORLANDO 1-1
MAVS VS BROOKLYN 1-1
MAVS VS Detroit 1-1

So these are your super-teams which had 6-8 seeding in the East last year. Mavs record agains them was .50
Now they added KP.
And you still think they are 8-10 seed in the east..
You need to bring some clarity to your thinking...

Nobody takes them seriously

KP?????

Guy is a clown