Moderators: dakomish23, Capn'O, j4remi, Deeeez Knicks, NoLayupRule, GONYK, mpharris36, HerSports85, Jeff Van Gully
Capn'O wrote:HarthorneWingo wrote:
I agree with this guy. Payton starts and Smith is the microwave player getting 30 min off the bench.
TheGreenArrow wrote:Capn'O wrote:HarthorneWingo wrote:
I agree with this guy. Payton starts and Smith is the microwave player getting 30 min off the bench.
Absolutely not. Trier will be the microwave player coming off the bench.
No way dsjr who basically is the crown jewel from the kp trade comes of the bench.
He's the starter and payton is the backup. Theirs to much invested in dsjr. It's his job to lose.
Clyde_Style wrote:TheGreenArrow wrote:Capn'O wrote:
I agree with this guy. Payton starts and Smith is the microwave player getting 30 min off the bench.
Absolutely not. Trier will be the microwave player coming off the bench.
No way dsjr who basically is the crown jewel from the kp trade comes of the bench.
He's the starter and payton is the backup. Theirs to much invested in dsjr. It's his job to lose.
I think you're correct that Zo will be the default 6th man to open the season and Dennis will start.
That doesn't mean Payton could not play alongside Smith, but I think the likeliest starting backcourt is RJ/Smith with Payton/Trier as the 2nd unit subs.
Payton and Trier could still get over 20 minutes anyway.
TheGreenArrow wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:TheGreenArrow wrote:
Absolutely not. Trier will be the microwave player coming off the bench.
No way dsjr who basically is the crown jewel from the kp trade comes of the bench.
He's the starter and payton is the backup. Theirs to much invested in dsjr. It's his job to lose.
I think you're correct that Zo will be the default 6th man to open the season and Dennis will start.
That doesn't mean Payton could not play alongside Smith, but I think the likeliest starting backcourt is RJ/Smith with Payton/Trier as the 2nd unit subs.
Payton and Trier could still get over 20 minutes anyway.
Totally agree.
j4remi wrote:Payton/DSJ
RJ/Frank
Morris/Dot
Randle/Knox
Mitch/Portis
With Knox and DSJ the first two players off the bench into the game (Knox in for Morris at first).
TheGreenArrow wrote:j4remi wrote:Payton/DSJ
RJ/Frank
Morris/Dot
Randle/Knox
Mitch/Portis
With Knox and DSJ the first two players off the bench into the game (Knox in for Morris at first).
We have too much invested in dsjr to have him coming off the bench.
He has to start. Payton will be solid as a backup.
And no trier in the rotation?? He's easily an early 6th man of the year canidate. No way hes not in the rotation.
j4remi wrote:TheGreenArrow wrote:j4remi wrote:Payton/DSJ
RJ/Frank
Morris/Dot
Randle/Knox
Mitch/Portis
With Knox and DSJ the first two players off the bench into the game (Knox in for Morris at first).
We have too much invested in dsjr to have him coming off the bench.
He has to start. Payton will be solid as a backup.
And no trier in the rotation?? He's easily an early 6th man of the year canidate. No way hes not in the rotation.
- Payton outperformed DSJ last season imo and has built in chemistry with our biggest offseason investment Randle. It's preferable that DSJ actually wins the job but I'll wait for him to show and prove in preseason before I give him that slot.
- I also don't understand "too much invested in DSJ" is that just because he came back in the KP deal? We also got cap space and two first rounders, so I don't really see it. To me, this is an important year to prove he'll be worth extending but he's also low risk as a contract we have an option on imo.
- Trier would be on the bubble for the rotation for me. The problem is he's been bad on defense (including in his one summer league appearance) and that makes him a bad fit with Knox who was also terrible. That's why I'd prefer Frank in there for more defensive balance. Granted, this is the second unit and defense is less important...also sixth man is a stretch. He could be a good bench scorer, but there's a consistency needed to win an award like that which none of our young guys have shown yet. He has the talent to be in the conversation but has to put it together to make it a no brainer. A tick up in playmaking would really help too.
TheGreenArrow wrote:-dsjr is younger and is apart of our core. Payton is here for 1 season in all likelihood. If where all about development like the knicks have been preaching its dsjr job to lose.
- cap space didnt do **** for us is this past off season and the two first rounders we received from the mavs will most likely be in the late teens early 20's. So when it comes down to it dsjr will be the most important piece we received from the kp trade.
-i beleive trier will make that jump this year just as i do with our other young guys(knox,dsjr etc). Frank is on the outside looking in. I would be suprised if he's even on the roster when the season starts let alone in the rotation. As of rite now frank is the12th man at best on this roster. You say trier as a lot to prove but yet you have frank in the rotation who has shown soooooo much less than trier in 2 years?!?!
Smh.
j4remi wrote:TheGreenArrow wrote:-dsjr is younger and is apart of our core. Payton is here for 1 season in all likelihood. If where all about development like the knicks have been preaching its dsjr job to lose.
- cap space didnt do **** for us is this past off season and the two first rounders we received from the mavs will most likely be in the late teens early 20's. So when it comes down to it dsjr will be the most important piece we received from the kp trade.
-i beleive trier will make that jump this year just as i do with our other young guys(knox,dsjr etc). Frank is on the outside looking in. I would be suprised if he's even on the roster when the season starts let alone in the rotation. As of rite now frank is the12th man at best on this roster. You say trier as a lot to prove but yet you have frank in the rotation who has shown soooooo much less than trier in 2 years?!?!
Smh.
- Our offseason didn't exactly scream "we're all about development." That statement is pretty much contingent on how Fiz handles the rotations. Any declarations in either direction are premature until we see the agenda on the court. Plus, the vet minutes will likely shift over the course of the season. The younger players may log more time as the season progresses plus the rotations may be more solidified AFTER trade deadlines pass. It's looking more like "the kids can put up or shut up" to me, especially considering the additions of Payton and Morris to compete with DSJ and Knox. It should be DSJ's job to lose, but if the "keep what you kill" mantra remains then DSJ has to take a step to pass up what Payton looked like for the second half of last season compared to DSJ's run (He's capable of it and I'm hoping for it, but preseason is when DSJ can prove that he's ready)
- The KP trade was for picks, cap space and DSJ. None of those is more important than the fact it helped us tank and land Barrett. DSJ was a good get, let's not overexaggerate. It is more than just cap space. It was the opportunity to bow out of having to commit a max deal to a player the franchise had good reason to be wary of from a health and psychological POV. I'm glad they did as I think KP is likely to be an injury machine, he's not a leader, has diva qualities and Janis.
- Frank's shown potential to be the best defender on a team. I'm a Frank fan, but until he hits his shots I think we're all pretty much expecting Fiz to hold him back. That's just reality right now. However, if Frank does start draining his shots then I support having him in a four guard rotation as his defense IMO will outweigh the comparative value of Payton's playmaking. If Frank does get it together then I'd be looking to see a long-term roster of RJ, Frank, DSJr and Trier. I think the likeliest outcome in that case is a starting backcourt of RJ and Smith with Frank and Trier the 2nd unit backcourt which sounds very good to me if they're all producing. Trier has shown potential be an elite scorer. We have a handful of others capable of being elite scorers. In terms of defensive upside, Frank's the only youngster on the perimeter that's shown potential to be better than average (maybe Dot). It is reasonable to not pencil Dot in now due to surgery and recovery. So I'm looking at it as simply as Randle, Barrett, DSJ and Knox are gonna be providing scoring along with vets like Morris and Portis who can score as well. We don't NEED Trier in the rotation to put together a quality offense. All of those other than DSJr are bigs. You do want a high efficiency small ball scorer off the bench (and Trier is not that small, just that he's a natural guard). Trier is in all respects the 100% natural option this team now has for a dependable 6th man. The only reason that would not be the case IMO is (a) Trier dominates and becomes so valuable he should start and (b) he keeps evolving as a facilitator and defender to the point he is an all-around threat you want in the starting unit (and that is possible; the guy is talented and super gritty). We might NEED Frank to have a respectable defense at least until Bullock is healthy.
Clyde_Style wrote:j4remi wrote:TheGreenArrow wrote:-dsjr is younger and is apart of our core. Payton is here for 1 season in all likelihood. If where all about development like the knicks have been preaching its dsjr job to lose.
- cap space didnt do **** for us is this past off season and the two first rounders we received from the mavs will most likely be in the late teens early 20's. So when it comes down to it dsjr will be the most important piece we received from the kp trade.
-i beleive trier will make that jump this year just as i do with our other young guys(knox,dsjr etc). Frank is on the outside looking in. I would be suprised if he's even on the roster when the season starts let alone in the rotation. As of rite now frank is the12th man at best on this roster. You say trier as a lot to prove but yet you have frank in the rotation who has shown soooooo much less than trier in 2 years?!?!
Smh.
- Our offseason didn't exactly scream "we're all about development." That statement is pretty much contingent on how Fiz handles the rotations. Any declarations in either direction are premature until we see the agenda on the court. Plus, the vet minutes will likely shift over the course of the season. The younger players may log more time as the season progresses plus the rotations may be more solidified AFTER trade deadlines pass. It's looking more like "the kids can put up or shut up" to me, especially considering the additions of Payton and Morris to compete with DSJ and Knox. It should be DSJ's job to lose, but if the "keep what you kill" mantra remains then DSJ has to take a step to pass up what Payton looked like for the second half of last season compared to DSJ's run (He's capable of it and I'm hoping for it, but preseason is when DSJ can prove that he's ready)
- The KP trade was for picks, cap space and DSJ. None of those is more important than the fact it helped us tank and land Barrett. DSJ was a good get, let's not overexaggerate. It is more than just cap space. It was the opportunity to bow out of having to commit a max deal to a player the franchise had good reason to be wary of from a health and psychological POV. I'm glad they did as I think KP is likely to be an injury machine, he's not a leader, has diva qualities and Janis.
- Frank's shown potential to be the best defender on a team. I'm a Frank fan, but until he hits his shots I think we're all pretty much expecting Fiz to hold him back. That's just reality right now. However, if Frank does start draining his shots then I support having him in a four guard rotation as his defense IMO will outweigh the comparative value of Payton's playmaking. If Frank does get it together then I'd be looking to see a long-term roster of RJ, Frank, DSJr and Trier. I think the likeliest outcome in that case is a starting backcourt of RJ and Smith with Frank and Trier the 2nd unit backcourt which sounds very good to me if they're all producing. Trier has shown potential be an elite scorer. We have a handful of others capable of being elite scorers. In terms of defensive upside, Frank's the only youngster on the perimeter that's shown potential to be better than average (maybe Dot). It is reasonable to not pencil Dot in now due to surgery and recovery. So I'm looking at it as simply as Randle, Barrett, DSJ and Knox are gonna be providing scoring along with vets like Morris and Portis who can score as well. We don't NEED Trier in the rotation to put together a quality offense. All of those other than DSJr are bigs. You do want a high efficiency small ball scorer off the bench (and Trier is not that small, just that he's a natural guard). Trier is in all respects the 100% natural option this team now has for a dependable 6th man. The only reason that would not be the case IMO is (a) Trier dominates and becomes so valuable he should start and (b) he keeps evolving as a facilitator and defender to the point he is an all-around threat you want in the starting unit (and that is possible; the guy is talented and super gritty). We might NEED Frank to have a respectable defense at least until Bullock is healthy.
Comments in bold above
BBALLER4FR wrote:DSJr/Payton/Frank
RJ/Trier/Dotson
Knox/Morris/Iggy/Bullock
Randle/Taj
Mitch/Portis
Deeeez Knicks wrote:I think DSJ will start, but they will probably split minutes pretty evenly and Fiz will go with the hot hand to finish. It is probably the starting spot that is the most up for grabs so would not surprise me either way.
But at the moment, the plan is for new Knick Elfrid Payton to get "every opportunity" to win the starting point guard position next season, per SNY sources familiar with the matter.
"Playing time was a factor and it depended on the deal,'' Payton told the website. "I obviously don't mind playing on a one-year deal ... but when you're in a situation where you're on a one-year deal, you have to be able to play to showcase what you can do. If you're on a one-year deal and you don't play, then your hands are kind of tied, you feel me? I also looked at the coaching and playing style."
