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OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs?

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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#41 » by jacoby1us » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:33 am

Betta Bulleavit wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:The drastic home/road split is bizarre. But the flaws of this team are fairly obvious. Aging, aceless pitching staff that for some reason this year cant pitch away from wrigley plus bullpen health/talent deficiency. The lineup is good but not elite. Obvious weakness being the everlasting blackhole that is whoever is put at leadoff.

Maddon will be the fall guy deserved or not. A lame duck expiring manager is way easier to change than an expensive, depreciating roster.

As unfortunate as it is, this could turn out to be the case. The thing is, outside of the Dodgers, everybody in the NL seems to have glaring holes. The bottom line is that it’s time for Theo to make some tough decisions with this rosters. Not blow it up. But we need to seriously assess who our core guys are and start selling off some guys for young talent. Like you said, our starting pitching is aging and inconsistent. We need a real lead off hitter, which we should be able to get. And we need to start replenishing our farm system, which is usually the case with perennial contenders. None of those things are going to be fixed by opting not to retain Maddon and I really hope they know that.



Agreed.
Firing Maddon after this season is a bs answer, they need to address the bullpen and the top of the order.
We are beginning to over value a couple of our players, should have sold high on a couple of them when their value was higher.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#42 » by MAQ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:39 am

Yeah, boat passed on selling any of our players not named Baez or Bryant high. Happ, Schwarber, Almora Jr to a lesser extent...those names could have gotten us some real talent 2 seasons ago. Now at best, you'd just be shuffling deck pieces with whatever you could get for them.

Time to really consider trading Bryant, IMO. Not because he's underperforming, but he's the ticket to revamping the farm. See if someone is willing to give up too much for Baez as well.

And while I am questioning just how good these players are, overall, my wonder is how bad is the Cubs as an organization at developing players? Cuz the in house talent hasn't gotten better except for Baez. Bryant has improved as expected, not over exceeding but not under exceeding. But the rest of them? I don't think they're all marginal players. Then you see Jorge Soler becoming the toast of the town in KC...Then you see we've had 3 hitting coaches in 3 years. Something's not right in the development portion of this organization, IMO.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#43 » by Kurt Heimlich » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:47 am

Betta Bulleavit wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:The drastic home/road split is bizarre. But the flaws of this team are fairly obvious. Aging, aceless pitching staff that for some reason this year cant pitch away from wrigley plus bullpen health/talent deficiency. The lineup is good but not elite. Obvious weakness being the everlasting blackhole that is whoever is put at leadoff.

Maddon will be the fall guy deserved or not. A lame duck expiring manager is way easier to change than an expensive, depreciating roster.

As unfortunate as it is, this could turn out to be the case. The thing is, outside of the Dodgers, everybody in the NL seems to have glaring holes. The bottom line is that it’s time for Theo to make some tough decisions with this rosters. Not blow it up. But we need to seriously assess who our core guys are and start selling off some guys for young talent. Like you said, our starting pitching is aging and inconsistent. We need a real lead off hitter, which we should be able to get. And we need to start replenishing our farm system, which is usually the case with perennial contenders. None of those things are going to be fixed by opting not to retain Maddon and I really hope they know that.


Yeah I like maddon too, hes a unique mind who has won from tampa to chicago and is already immortalized in cubs lore. But if you were to ask me who I believe more in theo vs joe I'd take theo.

And Maddon assuredly wants to maintain/grow his already league leading manager salary in a world where young/cheap managers are the trend.

Part of me thinks this is a negotiation game, much like veteran free agents have had to play in mlb the last few offseasons. But for me, theo has the most street cred/goodwill here, so I'm going to #trusttheprocess
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#44 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:59 am

MAQ wrote:Yeah, boat passed on selling any of our players not named Baez or Bryant high. Happ, Schwarber, Almora Jr to a lesser extent...those names could have gotten us some real talent 2 seasons ago. Now at best, you'd just be shuffling deck pieces with whatever you could get for them.

Time to really consider trading Bryant, IMO. Not because he's underperforming, but he's the ticket to revamping the farm. See if someone is willing to give up too much for Baez as well.

And while I am questioning just how good these players are, overall, my wonder is how bad is the Cubs as an organization at developing players? Cuz the in house talent hasn't gotten better except for Baez. Bryant has improved as expected, not over exceeding but not under exceeding. But the rest of them? I don't think they're all marginal players. Then you see Jorge Soler becoming the toast of the town in KC...Then you see we've had 3 hitting coaches in 3 years. Something's not right in the development portion of this organization, IMO.



Yeah the window of this team seems closedish. Not all the way but they need to do something. It becomes a Hawks situation real quick, a mini blowup of talent and revamp would be fine. I am OK with shopping Bryant if the return is right, I am not sure about Baez though.

Was Theo good at developing players in Boston or was he good at getting them in place? I can’t really say I am sure someone here knows, but yes we are currently not developing players well. Plus Theo has extended all our assets that we can improve on. We are definitely in a spot where decisions need to be made.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#45 » by dice » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:17 am

they're 10-12 in their last 22 w/ a relatively tough schedule. that's baseball, folks
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#46 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:18 am

Michael Jackson wrote:
MAQ wrote:Yeah, boat passed on selling any of our players not named Baez or Bryant high. Happ, Schwarber, Almora Jr to a lesser extent...those names could have gotten us some real talent 2 seasons ago. Now at best, you'd just be shuffling deck pieces with whatever you could get for them.

Time to really consider trading Bryant, IMO. Not because he's underperforming, but he's the ticket to revamping the farm. See if someone is willing to give up too much for Baez as well.

And while I am questioning just how good these players are, overall, my wonder is how bad is the Cubs as an organization at developing players? Cuz the in house talent hasn't gotten better except for Baez. Bryant has improved as expected, not over exceeding but not under exceeding. But the rest of them? I don't think they're all marginal players. Then you see Jorge Soler becoming the toast of the town in KC...Then you see we've had 3 hitting coaches in 3 years. Something's not right in the development portion of this organization, IMO.



Yeah the window of this team seems closedish. Not all the way but they need to do something. It becomes a Hawks situation real quick, a mini blowup of talent and revamp would be fine. I am OK with shopping Bryant if the return is right, I am not sure about Baez though.

Was Theo good at developing players in Boston or was he good at getting them in place? I can’t really say I am sure someone here knows, but yes we are currently not developing players well. Plus Theo has extended all our assets that we can improve on. We are definitely in a spot where decisions need to be made.


I don't think the door is closed, at all. Likely it will be the Cubs vs. Dodgers in the NCLS this season. Cubs are probably the 2nd best team in the NL right now and they haven't been fully healthy all season. They are still tied for 1st place right now. They just need to peak at the right time. The have the 2nd best run differential in the NL and they have not gotten the pitching they are capable of. They are top 5 in runs scored and runs against. It's a long season and other than the Dodgers, nobody in the NL has really been able to separate themselves from the 2nd tier which is the Cubs, Cards, ATL and WAS.

They have made the playoffs four years in a row. That is VERY VERY hard to do in baseball. I know they just got drubbed today. They need to finish this road trip off .500 which is still possible. They need to win tomorrow and take 2 of 3 from the Pirates and they'll be in good shape, ten games over .500, with 11 of the next 14 games at home and 21 of 36 games at home to finish out the season. Just get a chip and a chair (get into the post season) and hope to get good pitching at the right time of the year.

A baseball season is a roller coaster ride. Like all pro sports, it comes down to health and luck in the end. Sure, a lot has to go right for the Cubs to make it to the NLCS, but they have as good a shot as any team not named the Dodgers right now.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#47 » by jacoby1us » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:24 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
MAQ wrote:Yeah, boat passed on selling any of our players not named Baez or Bryant high. Happ, Schwarber, Almora Jr to a lesser extent...those names could have gotten us some real talent 2 seasons ago. Now at best, you'd just be shuffling deck pieces with whatever you could get for them.

Time to really consider trading Bryant, IMO. Not because he's underperforming, but he's the ticket to revamping the farm. See if someone is willing to give up too much for Baez as well.

And while I am questioning just how good these players are, overall, my wonder is how bad is the Cubs as an organization at developing players? Cuz the in house talent hasn't gotten better except for Baez. Bryant has improved as expected, not over exceeding but not under exceeding. But the rest of them? I don't think they're all marginal players. Then you see Jorge Soler becoming the toast of the town in KC...Then you see we've had 3 hitting coaches in 3 years. Something's not right in the development portion of this organization, IMO.



Yeah the window of this team seems closedish. Not all the way but they need to do something. It becomes a Hawks situation real quick, a mini blowup of talent and revamp would be fine. I am OK with shopping Bryant if the return is right, I am not sure about Baez though.

Was Theo good at developing players in Boston or was he good at getting them in place? I can’t really say I am sure someone here knows, but yes we are currently not developing players well. Plus Theo has extended all our assets that we can improve on. We are definitely in a spot where decisions need to be made.


I don't think the door is closed, at all. Likely it will be the Cubs vs. Dodgers in the NCLS this season. Cubs are probably the 2nd best team in the NL right now and they haven't been fully healthy all season. They are still tied for 1st place right now. They just need to peak at the right time. The have the 2nd best run differential in the NL and they have not gotten the pitching they are capable of. They are top 5 in runs scored and runs against. It's a long season and other than the Dodgers, nobody in the NL has really been able to separate themselves from the 2nd tier which is the Cubs, Cards, ATL and WAS.

They have made the playoffs four years in a row. That is VERY VERY hard to do in baseball. I know they just got drubbed today. They need to finish this road trip off .500 which is still possible. They need to win tomorrow and take 2 of 3 from the Pirates and they'll be in good shape, ten games over .500, with 11 of the next 14 games at home and 21 of 36 games at home to finish out the season. Just get a chip and a chair (get into the post season) and hope to get good pitching at the right time of the year.

A baseball season is a roller coaster ride. Like all pro sports, it comes down to health and luck in the end. Sure, a lot has to go right for the Cubs to make it to the NLCS, but they have as good a shot as any team not named the Dodgers right now.


Do not look past the Brewers or the Phillies. This Cubs team has been inconsistent all season.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#48 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:32 am

jacoby1us wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

Yeah the window of this team seems closedish. Not all the way but they need to do something. It becomes a Hawks situation real quick, a mini blowup of talent and revamp would be fine. I am OK with shopping Bryant if the return is right, I am not sure about Baez though.

Was Theo good at developing players in Boston or was he good at getting them in place? I can’t really say I am sure someone here knows, but yes we are currently not developing players well. Plus Theo has extended all our assets that we can improve on. We are definitely in a spot where decisions need to be made.


I don't think the door is closed, at all. Likely it will be the Cubs vs. Dodgers in the NCLS this season. Cubs are probably the 2nd best team in the NL right now and they haven't been fully healthy all season. They are still tied for 1st place right now. They just need to peak at the right time. The have the 2nd best run differential in the NL and they have not gotten the pitching they are capable of. They are top 5 in runs scored and runs against. It's a long season and other than the Dodgers, nobody in the NL has really been able to separate themselves from the 2nd tier which is the Cubs, Cards, ATL and WAS.

They have made the playoffs four years in a row. That is VERY VERY hard to do in baseball. I know they just got drubbed today. They need to finish this road trip off .500 which is still possible. They need to win tomorrow and take 2 of 3 from the Pirates and they'll be in good shape, ten games over .500, with 11 of the next 14 games at home and 21 of 36 games at home to finish out the season. Just get a chip and a chair (get into the post season) and hope to get good pitching at the right time of the year.

A baseball season is a roller coaster ride. Like all pro sports, it comes down to health and luck in the end. Sure, a lot has to go right for the Cubs to make it to the NLCS, but they have as good a shot as any team not named the Dodgers right now.


Do not look past the Brewers or the Phillies. This Cubs team has been inconsistent all season.


True. Brewers and Phillies are probably both in the same tier. I just think the Cubs have more talent than any of the others (Cards, ATL, WAS, PHI and MIL).

All of the above mentioned teams have been inconsistent all season. That's just baseball.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#49 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 am

Betta Bulleavit wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:It’s always easy to have this type of reaction during or after a bad loss. But Houston got killed by the Sox today. It happens. We get rid of Maddon, it had better be in favor of somebody that’s going to be able to come right in and have us back in the World Series next year. Period. No grace period. No excuses. Maddon’s successor doesn’t get this luxuries after what he’s done.


I don't care about the Cubs, but this general thought seems a bit black or white to me.

1: You get rid of Maddon if you feel he's lost the team.
2: You get rid of Maddon if you feel you can get someone better.
3: Get the best person you can.

The Cubs are good enough to have a goal of winning the world series, but that is probably still reasonably unlikely regardless of who manages it. If a new manager comes in and doesn't win the world series it doesn't make him a failure or the move to get rid of Maddon a bad one.

It's great that Maddon managed the Cubs to a world series win, and he'll be a Chicago icon forever for that much like Quenville, Ditka, and Jackson. However, it doesn't mean he gets a job for life. There are plenty of Cubs players that helped with that world series win that are now gone. Manager's actually are much less valuable assets than players (not my theory, but a theory born out by the salary of managers vs the salary of players, with no cap in place teams could spend anything they want on either and obviously feel players make a much bigger difference). Maddon shouldn't be any more untouchable than them.

It’s just the fact that the Cubs have been a playoff contender literally the entire time that Maddon has been here. What he’s done (talent be damned) is extremely hard to do. Especially when you consider the players he’s lost. The injuries that he’s had to deal with to significant players. I’m not saying that he’s irreplaceable. What I am saying is that you don’t let him go unless you know for certain that you have someone that’s just as good or better. I feel like that’s a fairly reasonable expectation.


Well said. Making the playoffs 4 years in a row in baseball is really an amazing accomplishment. Maddon is still one of the best managers in the World. You don't get rid of him as long as he wants to be here. A Manager in baseball is more important than coaches in most sports, IMO. A good/great manager is the difference between bad and good and good and great.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#50 » by SHO'NUFF » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:49 am

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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#51 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:21 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
MAQ wrote:Yeah, boat passed on selling any of our players not named Baez or Bryant high. Happ, Schwarber, Almora Jr to a lesser extent...those names could have gotten us some real talent 2 seasons ago. Now at best, you'd just be shuffling deck pieces with whatever you could get for them.

Time to really consider trading Bryant, IMO. Not because he's underperforming, but he's the ticket to revamping the farm. See if someone is willing to give up too much for Baez as well.

And while I am questioning just how good these players are, overall, my wonder is how bad is the Cubs as an organization at developing players? Cuz the in house talent hasn't gotten better except for Baez. Bryant has improved as expected, not over exceeding but not under exceeding. But the rest of them? I don't think they're all marginal players. Then you see Jorge Soler becoming the toast of the town in KC...Then you see we've had 3 hitting coaches in 3 years. Something's not right in the development portion of this organization, IMO.



Yeah the window of this team seems closedish. Not all the way but they need to do something. It becomes a Hawks situation real quick, a mini blowup of talent and revamp would be fine. I am OK with shopping Bryant if the return is right, I am not sure about Baez though.

Was Theo good at developing players in Boston or was he good at getting them in place? I can’t really say I am sure someone here knows, but yes we are currently not developing players well. Plus Theo has extended all our assets that we can improve on. We are definitely in a spot where decisions need to be made.


I don't think the door is closed, at all. Likely it will be the Cubs vs. Dodgers in the NCLS this season. Cubs are probably the 2nd best team in the NL right now and they haven't been fully healthy all season. They are still tied for 1st place right now. They just need to peak at the right time. The have the 2nd best run differential in the NL and they have not gotten the pitching they are capable of. They are top 5 in runs scored and runs against. It's a long season and other than the Dodgers, nobody in the NL has really been able to separate themselves from the 2nd tier which is the Cubs, Cards, ATL and WAS.

They have made the playoffs four years in a row. That is VERY VERY hard to do in baseball. I know they just got drubbed today. They need to finish this road trip off .500 which is still possible. They need to win tomorrow and take 2 of 3 from the Pirates and they'll be in good shape, ten games over .500, with 11 of the next 14 games at home and 21 of 36 games at home to finish out the season. Just get a chip and a chair (get into the post season) and hope to get good pitching at the right time of the year.

A baseball season is a roller coaster ride. Like all pro sports, it comes down to health and luck in the end. Sure, a lot has to go right for the Cubs to make it to the NLCS, but they have as good a shot as any team not named the Dodgers right now.


It’s not exactly closed and why I said closedish a made up word lol.

The ending of last season while we technically made the playoffs sums up this season for me too. By no means is this team bad, and they do have a chance still this year and the next for sure. They don’t feel like a team of destiny though. They feel like they need a retooling of sorts and that is my major concern. They have not much in the pipeline to improve with, via upcoming talent to play or to trade. He think we all are not ultra confident in our pitching. There are just a lot of question marks and the confidence isn’t exactly brimming.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#52 » by dougthonus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:13 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:Well said. Making the playoffs 4 years in a row in baseball is really an amazing accomplishment. Maddon is still one of the best managers in the World. You don't get rid of him as long as he wants to be here. A Manager in baseball is more important than coaches in most sports, IMO. A good/great manager is the difference between bad and good and good and great.


MLB managers make the least amount of money relative to player salaries and revenues of any of the four major sports, so it would seem that no one writing checks for any of these positions agrees with this theory. If it were true, the MLB teams are nuts for not just hiring away the best managers because the benefit would vastly outweigh the cost given how little incremental money it would take to hire whomever you feel the absolute best in the sport is.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#53 » by bearadonisdna » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:43 pm

dougthonus wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Well said. Making the playoffs 4 years in a row in baseball is really an amazing accomplishment. Maddon is still one of the best managers in the World. You don't get rid of him as long as he wants to be here. A Manager in baseball is more important than coaches in most sports, IMO. A good/great manager is the difference between bad and good and good and great.


MLB managers make the least amount of money relative to player salaries and revenues of any of the four major sports, so it would seem that no one writing checks for any of these positions agrees with this theory. If it were true, the MLB teams are nuts for not just hiring away the best managers because the benefit would vastly outweigh the cost given how little incremental money it would take to hire whomever you feel the absolute best in the sport is.


Team's usually do try to hire the best managers possible.
That wouldn't be pertainable to only MLB.
Would have to imagine most team's in pro sports try to hire the best guy available for any particular job.

There seems to be a lot more synchronization in baseball. Heck a head coach on the NFL isnt even responsible for calling plays unless he wants to.

Don't know, I think the guy has a point about a manager being pretty important as opposed to other sports.

A baseball team literally is the braintrust of the manager. He can put a different lineup out every day , and can dictate everything from swing to swing.

The carousel Mad-Done has put the cubs through might paint him as a clown if his style is foreshadowing to the team's identity.

Things I like about joe plenty. There's also joe freakin Girardi on deck.

Of the nfl,NBA, MLB, nagy is probably the one who has least exhibited a whimsical flimsy roster approach.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#54 » by dougthonus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:51 pm

bearadonisdna wrote:Team's usually do try to hire the best managers possible.
That wouldn't be pertainable to only MLB.
Would have to imagine most team's in pro sports try to hire the best guy available for any particular job.

There seems to be a lot more synchronization in baseball. Heck a head coach on the NFL isnt even responsible for calling plays unless he wants to.

Don't know, I think the guy has a point about a manager being pretty important as opposed to other sports.

A baseball team literally is the braintrust of the manager. He can put a different lineup out every day , and can dictate everything from swing to swing.

The carousel Mad-Done has put the cubs through might paint him as a clown if his style is foreshadowing to the team's identity.

Things I like about joe plenty. There's also joe freakin Girardi on deck.

Of the nfl,NBA, MLB, nagy is probably the one who has least exhibited a whimsical flimsy roster approach.


If manager made that big a difference, then you could spend 10 million dollars and hire literally any manager there is to come work for your team. Teams don't think managers make as big a difference which is why they don't spend as much to get the absolute best guy they think is out there.

They do spend that much in other sports.

Personally, I think head coach in the NFL makes a bigger difference than any other coach/manager position of the big four by a huge margin. I would guess that baseball manager is actually the least important, because I think they're making the fewest adjustments / decisions per game of the group.

The payment of owners seems to back up this general assertion that baseball managers are the least important, of course they could be wrong and it could be market inefficiency where they should pay more.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#55 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:59 pm

dougthonus wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Team's usually do try to hire the best managers possible.
That wouldn't be pertainable to only MLB.
Would have to imagine most team's in pro sports try to hire the best guy available for any particular job.

There seems to be a lot more synchronization in baseball. Heck a head coach on the NFL isnt even responsible for calling plays unless he wants to.

Don't know, I think the guy has a point about a manager being pretty important as opposed to other sports.

A baseball team literally is the braintrust of the manager. He can put a different lineup out every day , and can dictate everything from swing to swing.

The carousel Mad-Done has put the cubs through might paint him as a clown if his style is foreshadowing to the team's identity.

Things I like about joe plenty. There's also joe freakin Girardi on deck.

Of the nfl,NBA, MLB, nagy is probably the one who has least exhibited a whimsical flimsy roster approach.


If manager made that big a difference, then you could spend 10 million dollars and hire literally any manager there is to come work for your team. Teams don't think managers make as big a difference which is why they don't spend as much to get the absolute best guy they think is out there.

They do spend that much in other sports.

Personally, I think head coach in the NFL makes a bigger difference than any other coach/manager position of the big four by a huge margin. I would guess that baseball manager is actually the least important, because I think they're making the fewest adjustments / decisions per game of the group.

The payment of owners seems to back up this general assertion that baseball managers are the least important, of course they could be wrong and it could be market inefficiency where they should pay more.


I think it's just the opposite. A baseball manager makes the most decisions by FAR and dictates what happens in a game more than any other sport. From day to day lineups, when to swing and when to bunt... when to pull your starter, what reliever to use, when to change pitchers, when to pinch hit where to play your fielders. I mean, like bearadonisdna said they control the game. What does an NBA coach do except roll out a lineup? Look at a guy like Hoiberg.. the Bulls players didn't even listen to him. NFL head coaches most of them don't even call plays.

You have a point about salaries but that I don't think that correlates at all to importance. For whatever reason, MLB manager salaries hit the skids a few years back and you have the haves and the haves nots. The highest paid managers are making $5-6 million, but you have half the league with managers making around a million or less.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#56 » by bearadonisdna » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:00 pm

dougthonus wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:Team's usually do try to hire the best managers possible.
That wouldn't be pertainable to only MLB.
Would have to imagine most team's in pro sports try to hire the best guy available for any particular job.

There seems to be a lot more synchronization in baseball. Heck a head coach on the NFL isnt even responsible for calling plays unless he wants to.

Don't know, I think the guy has a point about a manager being pretty important as opposed to other sports.

A baseball team literally is the braintrust of the manager. He can put a different lineup out every day , and can dictate everything from swing to swing.

The carousel Mad-Done has put the cubs through might paint him as a clown if his style is foreshadowing to the team's identity.

Things I like about joe plenty. There's also joe freakin Girardi on deck.

Of the nfl,NBA, MLB, nagy is probably the one who has least exhibited a whimsical flimsy roster approach.


If manager made that big a difference, then you could spend 10 million dollars and hire literally any manager there is to come work for your team. Teams don't think managers make as big a difference which is why they don't spend as much to get the absolute best guy they think is out there.

They do spend that much in other sports.

Personally, I think head coach in the NFL makes a bigger difference than any other coach/manager position of the big four by a huge margin. I would guess that baseball manager is actually the least important, because I think they're making the fewest adjustments / decisions per game of the group.

The payment of owners seems to back up this general assertion that baseball managers are the least important, of course they could be wrong and it could be market inefficiency where they should pay more.


Sometimes I've viewed NFL coaches as glorified pencil pushers.
Gms build a roster.
OCs call the offense.
DCs call the defense.
There's practically a position coach for every position on the team.

The nfl head coach is basically the conductor of the orchestra while the mlb manager is the composer of the music.

Anyways I'm far from glorifying mlb managers but the swing to swing influence resonates to me.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#57 » by dougthonus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:16 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:I think it's just the opposite. A baseball manager makes the most decisions by FAR and dictates what happens in a game more than any other sport. From day to day lineups, when to swing and when to bunt... when to pull your starter, what reliever to use, when to change pitchers, when to pinch hit where to play your fielders. I mean, like bearadonisdna said they control the game. What does an NBA coach do except roll out a lineup? Look at a guy like Hoiberg.. the Bulls players didn't even listen to him. NFL head coaches most of them don't even call plays.


There are far more substitutions in every other sport per game than MLB, so other coaches are making radically more lineup decisions than a baseball manager is. If you view each at bat as the equivalent of a play, there are probably more plays in virtually every other sport as well per game.

You have a point about salaries but that I don't think that correlates at all to importance. For whatever reason, MLB manager salaries hit the skids a few years back and you have the haves and the haves nots. The highest paid managers are making $5-6 million, but you have half the league with managers making around a million or less.


You never know, market inefficiencies do exist, and I'm no baseball expert, but if manager makes that big a difference teams are morons for not spending 6 million to get the best guy they can. If a great manager added 5 wins consistently vs a normal manager, that's easily worth 6 million.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#58 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:34 pm

dougthonus wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:I think it's just the opposite. A baseball manager makes the most decisions by FAR and dictates what happens in a game more than any other sport. From day to day lineups, when to swing and when to bunt... when to pull your starter, what reliever to use, when to change pitchers, when to pinch hit where to play your fielders. I mean, like bearadonisdna said they control the game. What does an NBA coach do except roll out a lineup? Look at a guy like Hoiberg.. the Bulls players didn't even listen to him. NFL head coaches most of them don't even call plays.


There are far more substitutions in every other sport per game than the NFL, so other coaches are making radically more lineup decisions than a baseball manager is. If you view each at bat as the equivalent of a play, there are probably more plays in virtually every other sport as well per game.

You have a point about salaries but that I don't think that correlates at all to importance. For whatever reason, MLB manager salaries hit the skids a few years back and you have the haves and the haves nots. The highest paid managers are making $5-6 million, but you have half the league with managers making around a million or less.


You never know, market inefficiencies do exist, and I'm no baseball expert, but if manager makes that big a difference teams are morons for not spending 6 million to get the best guy they can. If a great manager added 5 wins consistently vs a normal manager, that's easily worth 6 million.



Very interesting. I’ve never thought of this. Especially since players make so much.

My gut would say that in the MLB that the manager has the biggest impact but the economy surely doesn’t spell that. I really think the NBA is the least impactful.
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#59 » by dice » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:43 pm

dougthonus wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:I think it's just the opposite. A baseball manager makes the most decisions by FAR and dictates what happens in a game more than any other sport. From day to day lineups, when to swing and when to bunt... when to pull your starter, what reliever to use, when to change pitchers, when to pinch hit where to play your fielders. I mean, like bearadonisdna said they control the game. What does an NBA coach do except roll out a lineup? Look at a guy like Hoiberg.. the Bulls players didn't even listen to him. NFL head coaches most of them don't even call plays.


There are far more substitutions in every other sport per game than the NFL, so other coaches are making radically more lineup decisions than a baseball manager is. If you view each at bat as the equivalent of a play, there are probably more plays in virtually every other sport as well per game.

You have a point about salaries but that I don't think that correlates at all to importance. For whatever reason, MLB manager salaries hit the skids a few years back and you have the haves and the haves nots. The highest paid managers are making $5-6 million, but you have half the league with managers making around a million or less.


You never know, market inefficiencies do exist, and I'm no baseball expert, but if manager makes that big a difference teams are morons for not spending 6 million to get the best guy they can. If a great manager added 5 wins consistently vs a normal manager, that's easily worth 6 million.

yeah, I've always thought that baseball manager was by far the least taxing/least impactful coaching position in sports. particularly nowadays when it's all about homeruns. fewer smallball decisions. even the lineups are probably mostly down to a moneyball science. more pitching changes now though I guess...

and what does the baseball manager even do outside of game action? there are no plays to draw up or practice, no scrimmages...it's all mindless repetition. a largely solitary pursuit. and there are hitting and pitching coaches to deal with the minutae. baseball is barely even a team sport. in the other sports you'll hear about how a particular coach is a real "taskmaster" or a "player's coach" or whatever, and there are a lot of player/coach conflicts about role or playing time or "touches". not so in baseball. I don't think that the average baseball player cares all that much about who his manager is or has his experience with a team affected much by it

admittedly I haven't paid much attention to baseball since the '80s mets fizzled, but I can't think of many legendary baseball managers who are known for something beyond their personality or association with a great team. I think larussa was considered a pioneer - a forerunner of a lot of the things that are commonplace now. whereas in basketball you've got phil Jackson, larry brown, bob knight, john wooden...all clearly very impactful in their own ways. TEACHERS. that aspect is certainly quite minor when it comes to baseball managers

clock management, play calling, timeouts, ego management, lineup chemistry considerations...all very important factors in basketball and football that are virtually irrelevant to being a baseball manager

the sheer amount of time that football coaches feel obligated to put in preparation-wise is killer. highly stressful job. many basketball coaches are the same way (thibs comes to mind). you never hear that kind of thing about baseball managers
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Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#60 » by League Circles » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:03 pm

You guys all have me changing my mind on manager and coaching importance with every successive post haha.

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