Image ImageImage Image

OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs?

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, Ice Man, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, fleet, AshyLarrysDiaper, Payt10, RedBulls23, dougthonus

RastaBull
Analyst
Posts: 3,445
And1: 1,441
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
         

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#61 » by RastaBull » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:03 am

League Circles wrote:You guys all have me changing my mind on manager and coaching importance with every successive post haha.
Haha, same. It's a tough debate, but really interesting. I do feel like the best NFL coaches are likely more influential to a game outcome on a game by game basis than MLB. Not to devalue managers in MLB, but when I think of some vague made up mathematical approach, the proportion of influence from the coach compared to the individual player. Way more players are on field and sharing impact on games amongst themselves (sure argument, some positions probably way more disproportionately impact in NFL than MLB). Its more players gaining individual share of impact, so potentially you could argue a single player (averaging all of their shares) is less in NFL than MLB.

Therefore, the NFL coaches impact proportional to his players average impact could be higher than the MLB coaches impact compared to his players average impact (and in basketball even less so).

I will say, one big thing not discussed yet is length of season. 162 games is A LOT. And look at the way we are talking about the Cubs, how great they look at one point and how low they are at another. Sustaining consistency is a challenge for a baseball manager that I think is far more challenging and important in MLB, thereby giving some credence to the importance of MLB coach on season success.

Relative parity across the sports would be interesting too. What is the impact of no cap on the importance of the coach? My gut thoughts are that it makes GREAT coaches all the more rare and hard to find. Yeah, you can get cheap coaches that make miracle runs in a small market one year, maybe sustain it two or even three years (KC a good example) ... but great coaches separate themselves with longevity that is much rarer today it feels like in MLB than NFL (I could be wrong, just my instincts not reach). Would be surprised if we see a Belichek of baseball ... or even a Tomlin. Roberts is having a good run thus far with LA, sorta like Tomlin in sense he landed first gig with some supreme talent and has continued evolving, but his managerial career is still quite young. Add-on and Francona are probably the closest. Perfect example is that Boone or Cora could very well be out of job in two years, ya never really can know in baseball it seems.

Sent from my STV100-2 using RealGM mobile app
Doctor Drain wrote:Can a butterfly sing?
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 32,278
And1: 16,779
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs?  

Post#62 » by johnnyvann840 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:25 am

That was the most disgusting loss I've ever seen. That might have been a back breaker for that team. You take a 5-1 lead into the ninth inning and you lose the game. Worst of all on a Bryce Harper walk off grand slam. The difference of being back in first place all alone vs. being on the verge of a meltdown.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
MalagaBulls
Starter
Posts: 2,278
And1: 644
Joined: Dec 15, 2013
Location: Malaga, Spain (Where the Sun Shines)
       

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#63 » by MalagaBulls » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:44 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:That was the most disgusting loss I've ever seen. That might have been a back breaker for that team. You take a 5-1 lead into the ninth inning and you lose the game. Worst of all on a Bryce Harper walk off grand slam. The difference of being back in first place all alone vs. being on the verge of a meltdown.
I agree Johnny, I am going to put the sorry @$$ Cubs on hiatus. They don't deserve my support. Oh wait, didn't I way that about the Bulls?
dice
RealGM
Posts: 33,647
And1: 8,174
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#64 » by dice » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:55 am

RastaBull wrote:
League Circles wrote:You guys all have me changing my mind on manager and coaching importance with every successive post haha.
Haha, same. It's a tough debate, but really interesting. I do feel like the best NFL coaches are likely more influential to a game outcome on a game by game basis than MLB. Not to devalue managers in MLB, but when I think of some vague made up mathematical approach, the proportion of influence from the coach compared to the individual player. Way more players are on field and sharing impact on games amongst themselves (sure argument, some positions probably way more disproportionately impact in NFL than MLB). Its more players gaining individual share of impact, so potentially you could argue a single player (averaging all of their shares) is less in NFL than MLB.

Therefore, the NFL coaches impact proportional to his players average impact could be higher than the MLB coaches impact compared to his players average impact (and in basketball even less so).

I will say, one big thing not discussed yet is length of season. 162 games is A LOT. And look at the way we are talking about the Cubs, how great they look at one point and how low they are at another. Sustaining consistency is a challenge for a baseball manager that I think is far more challenging and important in MLB, thereby giving some credence to the importance of MLB coach on season success.

Relative parity across the sports would be interesting too. What is the impact of no cap on the importance of the coach? My gut thoughts are that it makes GREAT coaches all the more rare and hard to find. Yeah, you can get cheap coaches that make miracle runs in a small market one year, maybe sustain it two or even three years (KC a good example) ... but great coaches separate themselves with longevity that is much rarer today it feels like in MLB than NFL (I could be wrong, just my instincts not reach). Would be surprised if we see a Belichek of baseball ... or even a Tomlin. Roberts is having a good run thus far with LA, sorta like Tomlin in sense he landed first gig with some supreme talent and has continued evolving, but his managerial career is still quite young. Add-on and Francona are probably the closest. Perfect example is that Boone or Cora could very well be out of job in two years, ya never really can know in baseball it seems.

couple of interesting points of discussion for me:

1) season length. i don't think that the number of games is as important as time on the job, which includes all days a player is with the team. also how physically taxing the work is and how many plane flights there are. it all combines to impact physical and psychological strain, which a coach/manager has some degree of control over. and again on this point i don't think that a baseball manager has much impact. the physical strain of being an in-season pro baseball player is substantially less than the other sports, so "load management" isn't much of an issue for a manager. he really only has to consider tired arms (pitchers). and given that baseball teams play almost every day, practice issues are minimal. on the other hand, the day to day grind of basketball and football seasons require far more important coaching decisions to be made. how many days off, how long practices are, what gets worked on DURING those practices, etc. how to keep things fresh for nba teams, particularly the elite ones (phil jackson and popovich are noted for their player management/motivational techniques)...

2) winning coaches/managers. what percentage of coaches/managers of championship-caliber teams in a particular sport are highly regarded? that answer would seem to play a part in determining how much of an impact those coaches/managers have in their field. title winning coaches over last 25 years:

bill belichick (6)
doug pederson
gary kubiak
pete carroll
john harbaugh
tom coughlin (2)
mike mccarthy
sean payton
mike tomlin
tony dungy
bill cowher
jon gruden
brian billick
dick vermeil
mike shanahan (2)
mike holmgren
barry switzer
george seifert

alex cora
a.j. hinch
joe maddon
ned yost
bruce bochy (3)
john farrell
tony larussa (2)
joe girardi
charlie manuel
terry francona (2)
ozzie guillen
jack mckeon
mike scioscia
bob brenly
joe torre (4)
jim leyland
bobby cox

nick nurse
steve kerr (3)
tyronn lue
gregg popovich (5)
erik spoelstra (2)
rick carlisle
phil jackson (8)
doc rivers
pat riley
larry brown
rudy tomjanovich

i'd say that 6 of those 11 nba coaches are widely regarded as superb at what they do. 3 others (kerr, rivers, tomjanovich) well respected at minimum. and lue/nurse are the only ones who are question marks at this point in their careers
harden '17-18: 30p 62%ts
MJ chi: 32p 58%ts

me: "JH almost the scorer MJ is"
notorious MJ water carrier/sack shaver: "dur, MJ have much more bigger career playoff PPG"

wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
Jeffster81
Analyst
Posts: 3,569
And1: 806
Joined: May 24, 2007
Location: Bazinga
       

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#65 » by Jeffster81 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:24 am

Barring some magical pulling of heads from buttocks, this team is done. Heck, outside of Yu Darvish, this teams seems checked out already. On to 2020 for the Cubs.
Goodbye....Someday.
User avatar
ImSlower
Analyst
Posts: 3,058
And1: 2,630
Joined: Jan 06, 2011
Location: STL
   

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#66 » by ImSlower » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:41 am

Don't worry Cubs guys, my Cardinals are even more garbage. Scoring three runs in a game is cause for excitement these days, though our pitching has been hot. The Brewers look like hot ass as well. It's a really crappy division right now.

One of us will probably beat the Dodgers and go to the World Series.
Jimmy Buckets gonna knock you out!!
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 13,775
And1: 1,146
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#67 » by Michael Jackson » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:59 am

Jeffster81 wrote:Barring some magical pulling of heads from buttocks, this team is done. Heck, outside of Yu Darvish, this teams seems checked out already. On to 2020 for the Cubs.



Yu Darvish being the only one not checked out is concerning.
ATRAIN53
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,434
And1: 1,171
Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Location: Chicago

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#68 » by ATRAIN53 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:06 pm

The young offensive help we needed - guys Theo drafted that were gong to help -
we traded away the last couple of years for pitching.

Eloy Jiminez and Gleyber Torres

They also all know it's Maddons last season and there's no mojo there from him.

We should have signed Bryce Harper and we should have traded to get back Starlin Castro since Russel collapsed.

Yu Dravisho tho - that guy is dealing.
User avatar
Ccwatercraft
Veteran
Posts: 2,574
And1: 1,109
Joined: Jul 11, 2017
       

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#69 » by Ccwatercraft » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:28 pm

ImSlower wrote:Don't worry Cubs guys, my Cardinals are even more garbage. Scoring three runs in a game is cause for excitement these days, though our pitching has been hot. The Brewers look like hot ass as well. It's a really crappy division right now.

One of us will probably beat the Dodgers and go to the World Series.


I actually think the division is fine, I like 3 way division fights like this, makes it interesting.

Sadly most of my baseball interest comes down to checking the scores on mlb.com before bed or in the morning, I really struggle to find the time and attention span to watch regular season baseball, I drift off and start multitasking or change the channel between innings and forget to go back because I get involved in watching the 2nd half of harry met sally for the 9th time. Even when I DVR the games so I can fast forward through the down time I end up losing interest by the 3rd or 4th inning.

I get a much better attitude during the playoffs, my patience doesn't wear down nearly as quickly but its still a bit of a struggle at times and I still find myself in the 5th or 6th inning and the score is 4-1 so i'll just watch something else "for a bit" and come back and check the score in 30 minutes.

I have no issues watching the games live, its just when at home I can't keep focused on the game too many distractions.
User avatar
JohnnyKILLroy
RealGM
Posts: 11,280
And1: 3,550
Joined: Jun 18, 2008
Location: Fountain Valley- A nice place to live
       

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#70 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:36 pm

Ccwatercraft wrote:
ImSlower wrote:Don't worry Cubs guys, my Cardinals are even more garbage. Scoring three runs in a game is cause for excitement these days, though our pitching has been hot. The Brewers look like hot ass as well. It's a really crappy division right now.

One of us will probably beat the Dodgers and go to the World Series.


I actually think the division is fine, I like 3 way division fights like this, makes it interesting.

Sadly most of my baseball interest comes down to checking the scores on mlb.com before bed or in the morning, I really struggle to find the time and attention span to watch regular season baseball, I drift off and start multitasking or change the channel between innings and forget to go back because I get involved in watching the 2nd half of harry met sally for the 9th time. Even when I DVR the games so I can fast forward through the down time I end up losing interest by the 3rd or 4th inning.

I get a much better attitude during the playoffs, my patience doesn't wear down nearly as quickly but its still a bit of a struggle at times and I still find myself in the 5th or 6th inning and the score is 4-1 so i'll just watch something else "for a bit" and come back and check the score in 30 minutes.

I have no issues watching the games live, its just when at home I can't keep focused on the game too many distractions.


Regular season baseball is always an amazing nap.
What is happiness? It's a moment before you need more happiness.” — Don Draper
User avatar
Ccwatercraft
Veteran
Posts: 2,574
And1: 1,109
Joined: Jul 11, 2017
       

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#71 » by Ccwatercraft » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:39 pm

JohnnyKILLroy wrote:
Ccwatercraft wrote:
ImSlower wrote:Don't worry Cubs guys, my Cardinals are even more garbage. Scoring three runs in a game is cause for excitement these days, though our pitching has been hot. The Brewers look like hot ass as well. It's a really crappy division right now.

One of us will probably beat the Dodgers and go to the World Series.


I actually think the division is fine, I like 3 way division fights like this, makes it interesting.

Sadly most of my baseball interest comes down to checking the scores on mlb.com before bed or in the morning, I really struggle to find the time and attention span to watch regular season baseball, I drift off and start multitasking or change the channel between innings and forget to go back because I get involved in watching the 2nd half of harry met sally for the 9th time. Even when I DVR the games so I can fast forward through the down time I end up losing interest by the 3rd or 4th inning.

I get a much better attitude during the playoffs, my patience doesn't wear down nearly as quickly but its still a bit of a struggle at times and I still find myself in the 5th or 6th inning and the score is 4-1 so i'll just watch something else "for a bit" and come back and check the score in 30 minutes.

I have no issues watching the games live, its just when at home I can't keep focused on the game too many distractions.


Regular season baseball is always an amazing nap.


Yes! Last weekend I watched a Rays/Marlins game and squeezed in two naps!
User avatar
ImSlower
Analyst
Posts: 3,058
And1: 2,630
Joined: Jan 06, 2011
Location: STL
   

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#72 » by ImSlower » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:02 pm

I can't argue your point. I am a pretty diehard baseball guy, more than basketball. Even saying that, between about June to mid September, other than the trade deadline I take a step back from paying much attention to teams outside of the Cardinals (and a handful of other teams my close friends support). 162 long, often dull games is a bummer. On the other hand, it's nice when I have a night off and can be confident there'll be a game on for me to watch.

Ignoring the tried-and-true "Baseball is boring" idea, this specific season has been pretty tough for the division. CCwatercraft, I pretty firmly disagree that the division is fine. It looks like a close race on paper, but all three top teams have had really irritating seasons for their fanbases, more than previous years. Five years ago, we had 97+ win Pirates, Cubs, and Cardinals teams all arguably looking like deep playoff teams. My Cards are "in first place", but look certainly don't look like a playoff team, and Cubs fans are saying the same thing about their team. It's a really ugly division this year, especially compared to the Dodgers, Yankees and Astros who are all tremendously superior teams.
Jimmy Buckets gonna knock you out!!
User avatar
transplant
RealGM
Posts: 11,096
And1: 2,673
Joined: Aug 16, 2001
Location: state of perpetual confusion
       

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs?  

Post#73 » by transplant » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm

Sometimes teams go through stretches where they consistently find a way to win games. Sometimes, like for the Cubs on the road this season, they find a way to lose games. On this road trip, the Cubs have wasted two of their very best starting pitcher performances. Last night, they played 8 great innings of ball...one short of what was needed.

I don’t know what’s wrong with the Cubs, but neither do Epstein, Hoyer or Maddon.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums
Until the actual truth is more important to you than what you believe, you will never recognize the truth.

- Blatantly stolen from truebluefan
dice
RealGM
Posts: 33,647
And1: 8,174
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#74 » by dice » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:52 pm

Jeffster81 wrote:Barring some magical pulling of heads from buttocks, this team is done. Heck, outside of Yu Darvish, this teams seems checked out already. On to 2020 for the Cubs.

nonsense. baseball teams are collections of individual players who do not particularly interact with each other on the field other than the battery and the middle infield. and i've never heard of middle infield chemistry issues. so unless the catcher is somehow poisoning the pitching staff or there is a toxic situation between coaches and players there is no reason to fear a team as a whole "checking out" because of a relatively short slump

would they have been up 5-1 going into the ninth if they were "checked out"?

the cubs are smack in the middle of range that they've been in for NINETY-FIVE games now

-3 games over .500 at 15-12
-11 games over .500 at 25-14
-3 games over .500 at 45-42
-11 games over .500 at 63-52
-currently 7 games over

the question is not whether the team has recently checked out, but rather why a team that has otherwise been 42-51 went on a 22-6 hot streak early in the season

the dodgers, a much better team, have been through the following independent stretches this season:

0-6
6-5
5-6
6-8
6-6

that's baseball
harden '17-18: 30p 62%ts
MJ chi: 32p 58%ts

me: "JH almost the scorer MJ is"
notorious MJ water carrier/sack shaver: "dur, MJ have much more bigger career playoff PPG"

wasn't a career comparison, clown. you dishonor MJ's legacy
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 13,775
And1: 1,146
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#75 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:17 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:That was the most disgusting loss I've ever seen. That might have been a back breaker for that team. You take a 5-1 lead into the ninth inning and you lose the game. Worst of all on a Bryce Harper walk off grand slam. The difference of being back in first place all alone vs. being on the verge of a meltdown.



The worst loss I have ever seen in pro baseball was the all star break game from 2 years ago... where Lester gave up 10 in the first inning iirc correctly. It was the most mailed in game I have ever seen in professional sports. I had a group of customers there and they started leaving at the second inning. It was a mailed in game before the break. This one last night was way more heartbreaking.
MAQ
RealGM
Posts: 45,143
And1: 2,395
Joined: Feb 28, 2006
Location: Dedication
     

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#76 » by MAQ » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:58 am

And another one.

It's getting heartbreakingly predictable.

This Cubs team reminds me of the 2017 Nats team we beat in the playoffs. Just wait for the bullpen to blow it.
GYBE wrote:I don't think my behaviour changes at all when I'm drunk. But when I'm wasted, my girlfriend becomes a real klutz. She starts walking into doors and falling down stairs. Weird.
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 32,278
And1: 16,779
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#77 » by johnnyvann840 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:22 am

MAQ wrote:And another one.

It's getting heartbreakingly predictable.

This Cubs team reminds me of the 2017 Nats team we beat in the playoffs. Just wait for the bullpen to blow it.


Yeah...Just knew that was coming as soon as Pirates got a man on. Once the bases were loaded you just knew he was going to walk in the tying run. So predictable.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 32,278
And1: 16,779
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs?  

Post#78 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:47 am

And just when things look bleak.... the team wins four in a row and all of a sudden KB and Rizzo look hot... Kimbrel looks healthy and great... and Castellanos is just unreal. Without him the Cubs are five games back right now
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 32,278
And1: 16,779
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs?  

Post#79 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:49 am

If the Brewers hang on Cubs are back in first all alone. Crazy game tonight.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 13,775
And1: 1,146
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: OT: What the hell is wrong with the Cubs? 

Post#80 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:20 am

I’m headed out to today’s game for work. I hope to see a team that has looked good the past few!

Return to Chicago Bulls