Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer

[King Ken]

Kek, I don't like Jordan and Harden, but in current pussy league

I stopped at this point... I already know you don't know anything about Basketball.

[Morb]

Kek, I don't like Jordan and Harden, but in current pussy league

I stopped at this point... I already know you don't know anything about Basketball.

Prepare yourself for double stepback and 15 3PTA)) Nice Basketball game, 110 lgDRtg.

[King Ken]

For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.

U forget hand checking was legal in MJ era. Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking. I guess harden could still shake free and take 4 steps back instead of his 3 step travels.

From 1990 onward, the NBA made a steady effort to improve offensive effectiveness and reduce physical contact. Among the changes implemented was the elimination of hand checking in 1994. When hand checking was allowed, a defender was able to use his hands to make contact with and impede the progress of an offensive player - this added another degree of difficulty to driving from the perimeter.

Truth is, since 1979, handchecking has been banned.

Watch on YouTube

Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking

LOL, do you understand physics?

Handchecking does nothing to Harden. He is 245, he make you take contact, you will move back and he will of course, hit you with the stepback.

Watch on YouTube

Of course, you last statement was just a silly snub at Harden. Typical..

[Ainosterhaspie]

For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.

U forget hand checking was legal in MJ era. Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking. I guess harden could still shake free and take 4 steps back instead of his 3 step travels.

No it wasn't.

Watch on YouTube

[NO-KG-AI]

The question is how many tiers above Harden is MJ. Probably at least 2. Harden isn’t in the second tier of the greatest scorers because he can be completely taken out of entire series.

Harden holding the ball for the entire game and the whole league being tailored to him getting space and free throws is clouding y’all judgement BAD.

He’s not Shaq or Kareem as a scorer. He doesn’t even have the extra gear like LeBron has when he needs to go into scorer mode. Forget about the MJ discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[kuclas]

For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.

U forget hand checking was legal in MJ era. Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking. I guess harden could still shake free and take 4 steps back instead of his 3 step travels.

From 1990 onward, the NBA made a steady effort to improve offensive effectiveness and reduce physical contact. Among the changes implemented was the elimination of hand checking in 1994. When hand checking was allowed, a defender was able to use his hands to make contact with and impede the progress of an offensive player - this added another degree of difficulty to driving from the perimeter.

Truth is, since 1979, handchecking has been banned.

Watch on YouTube

Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking

LOL, do you understand physics?

Handchecking does nothing to Harden. He is 245, he make you take contact, you will move back and he will of course, hit you with the stepback.

Watch on YouTube

Of course, you last statement was just a silly snub at Harden. Typical..

Go back to the pistons 1988-1990 era. There was so much tugging pulling. Refs let pistons rough up players. Harder to separate. They would blantanly pull harden jersey in a step back. And than see if refs allow it.

[King Ken]

U forget hand checking was legal in MJ era. Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking. I guess harden could still shake free and take 4 steps back instead of his 3 step travels.

From 1990 onward, the NBA made a steady effort to improve offensive effectiveness and reduce physical contact. Among the changes implemented was the elimination of hand checking in 1994. When hand checking was allowed, a defender was able to use his hands to make contact with and impede the progress of an offensive player - this added another degree of difficulty to driving from the perimeter.

Truth is, since 1979, handchecking has been banned.

Watch on YouTube

Those step back 3 pointers harder for harden to get off with hand checking

LOL, do you understand physics?

Handchecking does nothing to Harden. He is 245, he make you take contact, you will move back and he will of course, hit you with the stepback.

Watch on YouTube

Of course, you last statement was just a silly snub at Harden. Typical..

Go back to the pistons 1988-1990 era. There was so much tugging pulling. Refs let pistons rough up players. Harder to separate. They would blantanly pull harden jersey in a step back. And than see if refs allow it.

We got gametape of that team on a nightly basis and they weren't doing that on any type of consistent level. Why do you guys continue to make up these LeRoy Brown type exaggerations?

[LKN]

This makes zero sense

It makes perfect sense. Defenses become tougher in the playoffs with more game planning and more physical defense usually allowed which Harden has had trouble dealing with in most of his post season runs while MJ's scoring pretty much always went up on as good or better efficiency regardless because he has a higher ceiling as an athlete and a more polished all around scoring game.

Nothing you said made any sense. If defenses get harder in the playoffs which of course they do. MJ who is less scheme versatile would be the first for have issues with today's NBA. How would he have more success? Saying his scoring when up is meaningless if the personnel to defend him is not there. Sorry but Randy Wittman and Steve Smith is not defending MJ in space. Khris Middleton with a hard zone and Giannis and Lopez behind him and constant rolling traps is a MASSIVE difference. Just impossible to make that statement when the quality of competition is just favored in MJ's direction, it's unfair.

Best believe you aren't scheming the ball out of Harden's hand effectively if you gotta show your double team or it's a tech. Centers would foul out like crazy if Harden played in that era. It's not even fair to compare the two. The gap is quality of competition, level of defense, personnel grouping, and rule changes just simply make this a pointless statement.

MJ is easier to scheme. Detroit proved that and these defenses are miles away more advanced than those Pistons could ever dream of.

You can say a lot of nonsense but MJ would be A LOT easier to defend in this era than Harden and it's not even close. Harden playmaking is a monster to deal with. Harden's dribble drives are exceptionally hard to defend do to his body control, ball handling, size and strength 6'5 245 and vision at all times. He is an on ball machine. Clearly more advanced than Jordan and it's not even close. Even PPP is tiled in Harden's favor v. modern schemes and defenses. It's a joke to say what you are saying. A ridiculous joke.

You think Middleton could guard MJ.......



It's so much easier to get to the rim on drives now compared to when MJ played... FFS

[LKN]

Mid range v. zone defense at 195 when you can't shoot threes isn't a great value in all honestly. You can easily bump him off coverage with a defender like Middleton who's 6'8 240 and force him into Lopez and Giannis. Easily.

His numbers went up with OKC, in Houston is only drops as he is the system and you are forcing others to beat you other than him. Which you can do with hard traps, soft zones and putting a defender like Iggy, Exum when he was healthy, on him and using Gobert or Green to protect the paint and using Green to do that and protect the lane.

And outside of GS, it really hasn't been super effective in his recent run. You still got to outscore the Rox which is not easy to do whatsoever especially when at times you are playing 3-5 trying to scheme out Harden.

Not sure what this even has to do with the fact that Harden is just a more difficult matchup for any generation than Jordan is. Especially with today's rules.

Against HOU, you almost have to do a soft zone just due to Harden's playmaking skills. Against Jordan, I would go with nothing but hard zone and force him to beat me from modern 3pt NBA range.With a hard zone, I would also force MJ to create for others as well without slashing. That's when he struggled heavily. Of course in his era, I couldn't do it with Randy Wittman, Craig Elho, and guys like that. It's not possible. They just don't have the ability which is the biggest problem with MJ's era. The ability just wasn't there to defend him. The personnel just wasn't available.

I’m not a Mj stan nor an anti-Harden guy, but judging by your posts in this thread you seem to have some weird agenda against him. I mean the way you are talking about him it’s like he wasn’t one of the top 3-5 offensive players ever at worst. Zones do not slow down goat caliber offensive players, period. Lebron’s 11 finals was a rare exception, and there was clearly a mental thing going on with him too but that’s a different debate different day.

Jordan is in another galaxy as an offensive force than Giannis, so that example is reaching for straws at best. I recall having this argument with someone before, maybe it was you or maybe not.

But seriously like what the hell is “mid range vs a zone isn’t any good” supposed to mean exactly? 2 points is 2 points, and the way you are talking makes me question how much you really understand how a zone works. Younger Jordan was quick and crafty enough to be able to score inside anyway, and the versions that became elite at midrange would just shoot that all day. I honestly don’t know how you think a zone would stop prime Jordan. It worked on Giannis because he couldn’t shoot from anywhere, and didn’t have the type of craftiness to manage points otherwise.

As to all what you wrote about Harden, I don’t really know what to say other than it’s a fact Harden’s 3 often abandons him in the playoffs, and couple that with tighter whistles he loses value. The thread was scoring only, and there’s no coherent argument for Harden better as a playoff scorer, unless you like to ignore numbers in order to fuel your agenda.

What are you talking about? Zones, box and 1s and traps do slow down all players. To say it doesn't is telling to whom I am talking to.

It works v. anyone. The difference is with Steph and Harden is their shooting ability with their playmaking makes zones less effective. While Jordan's slashing will be much less effective as that's the purpose of a zone. Force slashers to shoot. Always has been the purpose of them. Soft zones are to force the worse player to shoot and really should be used by teams with the right personnel like MIL, GS, PHI, etc.

MJ would be MUCH easier to stop in this generation. How you can't see that is beyond me. That doesn't mean he won't be great. That doesn't mean he won't be effective. But this 40/8/8 nonsense was 100% nonsense. It's much harder to score in the NBA today than it was in the 90's for stars and superstars. It's not even close either. Just much better schemes, zone implementations, strategies and personnel than it was back then. I don't see how this is even up for debate. Let's just go straight to the tape.

It's like you defenders want to say something but really don't understand the game at all so it's like everything you say is just nonsense.

How is Jordan in another galaxy in scoring than Giannis? It's like you forget we got Jordan full game tape as well as Giannis. We see exactly what each players do, their weaknesses, their strengths, and their actions. We got footage.

"Younger Jordan was quick and crafty enough to be able to score inside anyway, and the versions that became elite at midrange would just shoot that all day."

This is another thing I hate about all MJ stanleys which you are even if you claimed your not. The MJ that played in 1995 did not play the same way he did in 1988. Stop combining the two. Stop trying to make this super Jordan that never existed. This is why arguing with you guys is always a **** show. Because you combine 195 MJ in 1988 with 212 MJ and make these super player that NEVER existed!

Do you understand what a zone defense is? By definition a zone defense is a type of defense, used in team sports, which is the alternative to man-to-man defense; instead of each player guarding a corresponding player on the other team, each defensive player is given an area (a zone) to cover. How did Jordan himself feel about it?

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

The NBA historically has been a man-to-man-defense league that encouraged great individual play.

But as coaches, like Hubie Brown in the 1970s, began to devise defenses to help out, the NBA instituted a series of defense rules that began to look like the Internal Revenue Service code. There was good reason for each of them, but when combined they made little sense.

So games often are spent with players pointing to lines on the court where a player is supposed to be or isn't.

Actually, many of the illegal-defense rules were designed to aid the centers, like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who were being smothered in the post area.

But the result has become a slower, unappealing setup game in which the ball is dropped into the post while the post player works with another player and three players stand around and watch.

See: New York Knicks, Miami Heat, et al.

Let's focus on what Michael said.

e believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

Because this type of the defense will slow down any version of Michael Jordan or ANYONE who's played basketball.

Watch on YouTube

It's not just a zone, it's because cutting off all driving lanes at the top of the key and forcing him to get the ball out of his hands. Tell me which version of Jordan would be successful with this type of defense?

Once again, until you understand the game better, you just don't understand or even know what you are talking about.

wrong - it's much easier to score for perimeter stars now. That's a absolute fact with mountains of data to support it.

You are spewing nonsense

[TheGOATRises007]

Jordan literally faced the defensive wall from the Pistons(and increased physicality) you linked the Raptors throwing at Giannis.

Guess what, he did way better than Giannis fared.

[freethedevil]

I’m not a Mj stan nor an anti-Harden guy, but judging by your posts in this thread you seem to have some weird agenda against him. I mean the way you are talking about him it’s like he wasn’t one of the top 3-5 offensive players ever at worst. Zones do not slow down goat caliber offensive players, period. Lebron’s 11 finals was a rare exception, and there was clearly a mental thing going on with him too but that’s a different debate different day.

Jordan is in another galaxy as an offensive force than Giannis, so that example is reaching for straws at best. I recall having this argument with someone before, maybe it was you or maybe not.

But seriously like what the hell is “mid range vs a zone isn’t any good” supposed to mean exactly? 2 points is 2 points, and the way you are talking makes me question how much you really understand how a zone works. Younger Jordan was quick and crafty enough to be able to score inside anyway, and the versions that became elite at midrange would just shoot that all day. I honestly don’t know how you think a zone would stop prime Jordan. It worked on Giannis because he couldn’t shoot from anywhere, and didn’t have the type of craftiness to manage points otherwise.

As to all what you wrote about Harden, I don’t really know what to say other than it’s a fact Harden’s 3 often abandons him in the playoffs, and couple that with tighter whistles he loses value. The thread was scoring only, and there’s no coherent argument for Harden better as a playoff scorer, unless you like to ignore numbers in order to fuel your agenda.

What are you talking about? Zones, box and 1s and traps do slow down all players. To say it doesn't is telling to whom I am talking to.

It works v. anyone. The difference is with Steph and Harden is their shooting ability with their playmaking makes zones less effective. While Jordan's slashing will be much less effective as that's the purpose of a zone. Force slashers to shoot. Always has been the purpose of them. Soft zones are to force the worse player to shoot and really should be used by teams with the right personnel like MIL, GS, PHI, etc.

MJ would be MUCH easier to stop in this generation. How you can't see that is beyond me. That doesn't mean he won't be great. That doesn't mean he won't be effective. But this 40/8/8 nonsense was 100% nonsense. It's much harder to score in the NBA today than it was in the 90's for stars and superstars. It's not even close either. Just much better schemes, zone implementations, strategies and personnel than it was back then. I don't see how this is even up for debate. Let's just go straight to the tape.

It's like you defenders want to say something but really don't understand the game at all so it's like everything you say is just nonsense.

How is Jordan in another galaxy in scoring than Giannis? It's like you forget we got Jordan full game tape as well as Giannis. We see exactly what each players do, their weaknesses, their strengths, and their actions. We got footage.

"Younger Jordan was quick and crafty enough to be able to score inside anyway, and the versions that became elite at midrange would just shoot that all day."

This is another thing I hate about all MJ stanleys which you are even if you claimed your not. The MJ that played in 1995 did not play the same way he did in 1988. Stop combining the two. Stop trying to make this super Jordan that never existed. This is why arguing with you guys is always a **** show. Because you combine 195 MJ in 1988 with 212 MJ and make these super player that NEVER existed!

Do you understand what a zone defense is? By definition a zone defense is a type of defense, used in team sports, which is the alternative to man-to-man defense; instead of each player guarding a corresponding player on the other team, each defensive player is given an area (a zone) to cover. How did Jordan himself feel about it?

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

The NBA historically has been a man-to-man-defense league that encouraged great individual play.

But as coaches, like Hubie Brown in the 1970s, began to devise defenses to help out, the NBA instituted a series of defense rules that began to look like the Internal Revenue Service code. There was good reason for each of them, but when combined they made little sense.

So games often are spent with players pointing to lines on the court where a player is supposed to be or isn't.

Actually, many of the illegal-defense rules were designed to aid the centers, like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who were being smothered in the post area.

But the result has become a slower, unappealing setup game in which the ball is dropped into the post while the post player works with another player and three players stand around and watch.

See: New York Knicks, Miami Heat, et al.

Let's focus on what Michael said.

e believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

Because this type of the defense will slow down any version of Michael Jordan or ANYONE who's played basketball.

Watch on YouTube

It's not just a zone, it's because cutting off all driving lanes at the top of the key and forcing him to get the ball out of his hands. Tell me which version of Jordan would be successful with this type of defense?

Once again, until you understand the game better, you just don't understand or even know what you are talking about.

wrong - it's much easier to score for perimeter stars now. That's a absolute fact with mountains of data to support it.

You are spewing nonsense

Where are these "tons of data"? The season after the hand checking rules were implemented, all the players in the all star game saw their ppg go down. Team Scoring went up yeah, but individual scoring didn't spike as the game went away from isolation basketball. Defenses being allowed to double prompted emphasis on passing and sharing the scoring burden.

Regardless, what giannis and jordan faced weren't the same. This isn't to say what giannis faced was neccesarily harder, but just because there's a video calling them the ""player" rules", doesn't mean those are the same defenses.

Jordan literally faced the defensive wall from the Pistons(and increased physicality) you linked the Raptors

Jordan didn't face the line of defenders cutting off his drives. He was fouled harder in the paint but equating the raptors scheme to a "less physical" version of the pistons is disingeuous.

[TheGOATRises007]

What are you talking about? Zones, box and 1s and traps do slow down all players. To say it doesn't is telling to whom I am talking to.

It works v. anyone. The difference is with Steph and Harden is their shooting ability with their playmaking makes zones less effective. While Jordan's slashing will be much less effective as that's the purpose of a zone. Force slashers to shoot. Always has been the purpose of them. Soft zones are to force the worse player to shoot and really should be used by teams with the right personnel like MIL, GS, PHI, etc.

MJ would be MUCH easier to stop in this generation. How you can't see that is beyond me. That doesn't mean he won't be great. That doesn't mean he won't be effective. But this 40/8/8 nonsense was 100% nonsense. It's much harder to score in the NBA today than it was in the 90's for stars and superstars. It's not even close either. Just much better schemes, zone implementations, strategies and personnel than it was back then. I don't see how this is even up for debate. Let's just go straight to the tape.

It's like you defenders want to say something but really don't understand the game at all so it's like everything you say is just nonsense.

How is Jordan in another galaxy in scoring than Giannis? It's like you forget we got Jordan full game tape as well as Giannis. We see exactly what each players do, their weaknesses, their strengths, and their actions. We got footage.

"Younger Jordan was quick and crafty enough to be able to score inside anyway, and the versions that became elite at midrange would just shoot that all day."

This is another thing I hate about all MJ stanleys which you are even if you claimed your not. The MJ that played in 1995 did not play the same way he did in 1988. Stop combining the two. Stop trying to make this super Jordan that never existed. This is why arguing with you guys is always a **** show. Because you combine 195 MJ in 1988 with 212 MJ and make these super player that NEVER existed!

Do you understand what a zone defense is? By definition a zone defense is a type of defense, used in team sports, which is the alternative to man-to-man defense; instead of each player guarding a corresponding player on the other team, each defensive player is given an area (a zone) to cover. How did Jordan himself feel about it?



Let's focus on what Michael said.


Because this type of the defense will slow down any version of Michael Jordan or ANYONE who's played basketball.

Watch on YouTube

It's not just a zone, it's because cutting off all driving lanes at the top of the key and forcing him to get the ball out of his hands. Tell me which version of Jordan would be successful with this type of defense?

Once again, until you understand the game better, you just don't understand or even know what you are talking about.

wrong - it's much easier to score for perimeter stars now. That's a absolute fact with mountains of data to support it.

You are spewing nonsense

Where are these "tons of data"? The season after the hand checking rules were implemented, all the players in the all star game saw their ppg go down.

Regardless, what giannis and jordan faced weren't the same. This isn't to say what giannis faced was neccesarily harder, but just because there's a video calling them the ""player" rules", doesn't mean those are the same defenses.

Indeed.

what Jordan faced was actually tougher, because they clobbered him almost whenever he went into the paint.

[freethedevil]

What are you talking about? Zones, box and 1s and traps do slow down all players. To say it doesn't is telling to whom I am talking to.

It works v. anyone. The difference is with Steph and Harden is their shooting ability with their playmaking makes zones less effective. While Jordan's slashing will be much less effective as that's the purpose of a zone. Force slashers to shoot. Always has been the purpose of them. Soft zones are to force the worse player to shoot and really should be used by teams with the right personnel like MIL, GS, PHI, etc.

MJ would be MUCH easier to stop in this generation. How you can't see that is beyond me. That doesn't mean he won't be great. That doesn't mean he won't be effective. But this 40/8/8 nonsense was 100% nonsense. It's much harder to score in the NBA today than it was in the 90's for stars and superstars. It's not even close either. Just much better schemes, zone implementations, strategies and personnel than it was back then. I don't see how this is even up for debate. Let's just go straight to the tape.

It's like you defenders want to say something but really don't understand the game at all so it's like everything you say is just nonsense.

How is Jordan in another galaxy in scoring than Giannis? It's like you forget we got Jordan full game tape as well as Giannis. We see exactly what each players do, their weaknesses, their strengths, and their actions. We got footage.

"Younger Jordan was quick and crafty enough to be able to score inside anyway, and the versions that became elite at midrange would just shoot that all day."

This is another thing I hate about all MJ stanleys which you are even if you claimed your not. The MJ that played in 1995 did not play the same way he did in 1988. Stop combining the two. Stop trying to make this super Jordan that never existed. This is why arguing with you guys is always a **** show. Because you combine 195 MJ in 1988 with 212 MJ and make these super player that NEVER existed!

Do you understand what a zone defense is? By definition a zone defense is a type of defense, used in team sports, which is the alternative to man-to-man defense; instead of each player guarding a corresponding player on the other team, each defensive player is given an area (a zone) to cover. How did Jordan himself feel about it?



Let's focus on what Michael said.


Because this type of the defense will slow down any version of Michael Jordan or ANYONE who's played basketball.

Watch on YouTube

It's not just a zone, it's because cutting off all driving lanes at the top of the key and forcing him to get the ball out of his hands. Tell me which version of Jordan would be successful with this type of defense?

Once again, until you understand the game better, you just don't understand or even know what you are talking about.

wrong - it's much easier to score for perimeter stars now. That's a absolute fact with mountains of data to support it.

You are spewing nonsense

Where are these "tons of data"? The season after the hand checking rules were implemented, all the players in the all star game saw their ppg go down. Team Scoring went up yeah, but individual scoring didn't spike as the game went away from isolation basketball. Defenses being allowed to double prompted emphasis on passing and sharing the scoring burden.

Regardless, what giannis and jordan faced weren't the same. This isn't to say what giannis faced was neccesarily harder, but just because there's a video calling them the ""player" rules", doesn't mean those are the same defenses.

Jordan literally faced the defensive wall from the Pistons(and increased physicality) you linked the Raptors

And Giannis faced 4 mean leaving the key to wall him off before he even got into the paint. The walls were set even when he didn't have the ball.

So no, "it was the same but more physical" is a stupid take. And yes jordan did better, he's a much better offensive player.

[King Ken]

wrong - it's much easier to score for perimeter stars now. That's a absolute fact with mountains of data to support it.

You are spewing nonsense

Where are these "tons of data"? The season after the hand checking rules were implemented, all the players in the all star game saw their ppg go down.

Regardless, what giannis and jordan faced weren't the same. This isn't to say what giannis faced was neccesarily harder, but just because there's a video calling them the ""player" rules", doesn't mean those are the same defenses.

There is no data to prove what he is saying. He is going by players lucid opinions which is meaningless as facts. Facts are he doesn't care for the truth. He just feels MJ is GOAT and he doesn't want to entertain any opinion otherwise which is why he trolls and gets emotional when challenged on this topic.

What Giannis faced is exceptionally more difficult than what Jordan faced. From the quality of the defenders defending him, the scheme, the effectiveness, the coaching discipline, the metrics and in game adjustments, and the quality of gameplan.

This isn't the illegal defense/pre zone era. You do whatever it takes to shut off all lanes with a slasher as elite as Giannis and this experience wasn't possible for Mike due to a myriad of reasons.

We should be thankful for Mike. He saved the NBA more than anyone. His era was trash, he single handledly was the one of the few players really worth watching for fun outside of Hakeem till Grant, Kidd, Shaq and Penny was ready. MJ did a tremendous job for the game and deserves the respect but the question here is MJ v. Harden as a scorer. The answer is Harden.

[King Ken]

Jordan literally faced the defensive wall from the Pistons(and increased physicality) you linked the Raptors throwing at Giannis.

Guess what, he did way better than Giannis fared.

Watch on YouTube

[Pelly24]

For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.

Jordan is one of the best mid range shooters ever, so i don't think it would be as easy to limit him like you say.

And what do you mean you can't do much with Harden? His scoring efficiency sees a noticeable drop almost every postseason.

Mid range v. zone defense at 195 when you can't shoot threes isn't a great value in all honestly. You can easily bump him off coverage with a defender like Middleton who's 6'8 240 and force him into Lopez and Giannis. Easily.

His numbers went up with OKC, in Houston is only drops as he is the system and you are forcing others to beat you other than him. Which you can do with hard traps, soft zones and putting a defender like Iggy, Exum when he was healthy, on him and using Gobert or Green to protect the paint and using Green to do that and protect the lane.

And outside of GS, it really hasn't been super effective in his recent run. You still got to outscore the Rox which is not easy to do whatsoever especially when at times you are playing 3-5 trying to scheme out Harden.

Not sure what this even has to do with the fact that Harden is just a more difficult matchup for any generation than Jordan is. Especially with today's rules.

Against HOU, you almost have to do a soft zone just due to Harden's playmaking skills. Against Jordan, I would go with nothing but hard zone and force him to beat me from modern 3pt NBA range.With a hard zone, I would also force MJ to create for others as well without slashing. That's when he struggled heavily. Of course in his era, I couldn't do it with Randy Wittman, Craig Elho, and guys like that. It's not possible. They just don't have the ability which is the biggest problem with MJ's era. The ability just wasn't there to defend him. The personnel just wasn't available.

I think you're underestimating MJ's three-point jumper. He was at like 33-34% for his career in an era that didn't stress three-point shooter. Sure, he wasn't a great shooter from that range, but in this era a big part of the game is your willingness to take the shots, and he was a noticeably better shooter while also being every bit as athletic and 3 inches taller. I could see MJ hitting 35%>>> of his threes and making about 100 per year. Maybe a bit lower give or take, but combined with his GOAT midrange and finishing abilities, he'd be a better version of Kawhi offensively. Like a Kawhi that was also a great passer.

Focusing more on the argument, MJ was a far better playoff performer than Harden. Really not even close.

[King Ken]

Jordan is one of the best mid range shooters ever, so i don't think it would be as easy to limit him like you say.

And what do you mean you can't do much with Harden? His scoring efficiency sees a noticeable drop almost every postseason.

Mid range v. zone defense at 195 when you can't shoot threes isn't a great value in all honestly. You can easily bump him off coverage with a defender like Middleton who's 6'8 240 and force him into Lopez and Giannis. Easily.

His numbers went up with OKC, in Houston is only drops as he is the system and you are forcing others to beat you other than him. Which you can do with hard traps, soft zones and putting a defender like Iggy, Exum when he was healthy, on him and using Gobert or Green to protect the paint and using Green to do that and protect the lane.

And outside of GS, it really hasn't been super effective in his recent run. You still got to outscore the Rox which is not easy to do whatsoever especially when at times you are playing 3-5 trying to scheme out Harden.

Not sure what this even has to do with the fact that Harden is just a more difficult matchup for any generation than Jordan is. Especially with today's rules.

Against HOU, you almost have to do a soft zone just due to Harden's playmaking skills. Against Jordan, I would go with nothing but hard zone and force him to beat me from modern 3pt NBA range.With a hard zone, I would also force MJ to create for others as well without slashing. That's when he struggled heavily. Of course in his era, I couldn't do it with Randy Wittman, Craig Elho, and guys like that. It's not possible. They just don't have the ability which is the biggest problem with MJ's era. The ability just wasn't there to defend him. The personnel just wasn't available.

I think you're underestimating MJ's three-point jumper. He was at like 33-34% for his career in an era that didn't stress three-point shooter. Sure, he wasn't a great shooter from that range, but in this era a big part of the game is your willingness to take the shots, and he was a noticeably better shooter while also being every bit as athletic and 3 inches taller. I could see MJ hitting 35%>>> of his threes and making about 100 per year...

I need to know why you guys are so sure of this. When I watched most tape, his three point shooting looked awful. Shot was always flat from distance. He never really looked comfortable. Most guys didn't really defend him heavily unless it was close to zero on the shot clock. He liked to double clutch for to try to pass it. He mainly took threes with the shot clock running down or if the defender was playing his weak hand in more difficult situations and it was still a last option type of thing. MJ tales are always interesting. It's never anything factual, it's Basketball Chuck Norris talk.

Watch on YouTube

[kuclas]

From 1990 onward, the NBA made a steady effort to improve offensive effectiveness and reduce physical contact. Among the changes implemented was the elimination of hand checking in 1994. When hand checking was allowed, a defender was able to use his hands to make contact with and impede the progress of an offensive player - this added another degree of difficulty to driving from the perimeter.

Truth is, since 1979, handchecking has been banned.

Watch on YouTube

LOL, do you understand physics?

Handchecking does nothing to Harden. He is 245, he make you take contact, you will move back and he will of course, hit you with the stepback.

Watch on YouTube

Of course, you last statement was just a silly snub at Harden. Typical..

Go back to the pistons 1988-1990 era. There was so much tugging pulling. Refs let pistons rough up players. Harder to separate. They would blantanly pull harden jersey in a step back. And than see if refs allow it.

We got gametape of that team on a nightly basis and they weren't doing that on any type of consistent level. Why do you guys continue to make up these LeRoy Brown type exaggerations?

Overall team Scoring was way down during two stretches of MJs career.

The nba has made defense harder. It’s like the nfl receivers these days. The cornerbacks can barely lay a hand of their receivers and that’s why u see routinely players get 100 plus points.

I’m not saying harden couldn’t score in that era. He can score in any era. He’s a great offensive player. We aren’t questioning that. What we are questioning is he a greater scorer than Jordan. And that answer is simply no. Also take into account harden gets to the line the most in the nba. No guard (thAt I can think of) ever lead the league in free throw attempts in Jordan era. It was usually the centers or power forwards. Only one the lost from 1983-1998 was Adrian dantley and Jordan himself.

Jordan efficiency would go way up if more fouls get calls due to defensive changes in this current era.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_yearly.html

We all know scoring isn’t everything. Harden is great at offensive. But he’s not Jordan great. And we haven’t even started talking about defense.

[LKN]

wrong - it's much easier to score for perimeter stars now. That's a absolute fact with mountains of data to support it.

You are spewing nonsense

Where are these "tons of data"? The season after the hand checking rules were implemented, all the players in the all star game saw their ppg go down.

Regardless, what giannis and jordan faced weren't the same. This isn't to say what giannis faced was neccesarily harder, but just because there's a video calling them the ""player" rules", doesn't mean those are the same defenses.

There is no data to prove what he is saying. He is going by players lucid opinions which is meaningless as facts. Facts are he doesn't care for the truth. He just feels MJ is GOAT and he doesn't want to entertain any opinion otherwise which is why he trolls and gets emotional when challenged on this topic.

What Giannis faced is exceptionally more difficult than what Jordan faced. From the quality of the defenders defending him, the scheme, the effectiveness, the coaching discipline, the metrics and in game adjustments, and the quality of gameplan.

This isn't the illegal defense/pre zone era. You do whatever it takes to shut off all lanes with a slasher as elite as Giannis and this experience wasn't possible for Mike due to a myriad of reasons.

We should be thankful for Mike. He saved the NBA more than anyone. His era was trash, he single handledly was the one of the few players really worth watching for fun outside of Hakeem till Grant, Kidd, Shaq and Penny was ready. MJ did a tremendous job for the game and deserves the respect but the question here is MJ v. Harden as a scorer. The answer is Harden.

Please don't put works in my mouth and FFS why the hell are you going with personal attacks? The bolded is unacceptable and childish. You can criticize my posts however you like, but there's no need to impugn my motives - this is just a basketball discussion board.

In any case go look up how many perimeter players have scored 38 pts/100 or more with a TS of 58 or greater. It's clearly much easier to do that now than it was prior to 2006.

Bernard King, Dantley and Gervin (and they only had 1 season each) are the only G, SG, SF who ever did it besides MJ (who had 5 such seasons). There were only 12 seasons in the entire history of the NBA like this up to the year 2000 (5 by MJ, 4 by Karl Malone). There have been 10 seasons like this just in the last 5 years, We can play with the qualifications in a lot of different ways and what it consistently shows is that it's much more common to score at a high rate with a high TS now for perimeter players, I've been through this several times before and I'm not interested in going through it all again.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&type=advanced&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=58&c2stat=pts_per_poss&c2comp=gt&c2val=38&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=30&order_by=pts_per_poss

Heck if we lower it to 35 pts/100 and 58 TS we get guys like Kevin Martin and Devin Booker start showing up.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&type=advanced&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=58&c2stat=pts_per_poss&c2comp=gt&c2val=35&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=30&order_by=pts_per_poss

[kendogg]

https://cdn.nba.net/nba-drupal-prod/nba-rules-changes-history.pdf

Hand-checking was changed in 1998 along with illegal defenses. So Jordan had to deal with hand-checking all through his career. The illegal defense changes were just as impactful. The rules were modified in 1999, 2001 and 2003 regarding hand-checking and illegal defenses, ending at where we are today, with a single forearm inside the FT line extended allowed only, and no illegal defense rules just a defensive 3-second rule. Illegal defense rules changes eventually did curb ISO play a bit, which did to some extent allow Jordan to 1v1 easier than Harden. Though with all of the 3-point shooters these days, it is pretty easy to space the floor. And the 2-man game has largely replaced the ISO game, though with stricter contact rules on the perimeter there is still a space for a 1v1 game.

The unwritten rules are more surrounding dribbling and carrying, which is more at the discretion of the refs, and has gotten looser over the years. This certainly benefits Harden more than Jordan.

The fact is that is has never been easier for a guard to score on the perimeter (primarily due to hand checking rules), though it might be slightly harder to score in the paint now (due to new defensive 3 second rule and popularized abuse of the rule by stacking the strong side for 2.9 seconds at a time). But that is not to say that Harden isn't as talented or even more of a scorer as Jordan in some ways. Clearly, Harden is the step-back king. It is a tool in Jordan's toolbox, but not his most used for sure. He is great at attacking the rim and getting to the line. His peak stats are impressive in this regard, but remember it is far easier for him to get to the line than Jordan since they allow zero contact outside the FT line these days.

Jordan could easily palm the ball as a guard, which gave him advantages that Harden (or almost any other guard in history) simply do not have in a triple threat/isolation position. Jordan is a as good of an outside shooter as Harden. And better mid-range and in. Jordan did not begin his NBA career as a 3-pt shooter, but he was good once he incorporated 3-pt shooting into his game, which remember did not exist for him growing up and was not universally added in the NBA until 1980 and the NCAA until 1986, high school basketball in 1987. Jordan was great at attacking the rim, more than Harden when you consider he peaked higher in an era where it was harder to draw fouls on the perimeter. He was absolutely better in the post than Harden. Not even close there. Jordan is probably the best low/mid post guard in NBA history, but you can definitely argue that illegal defense rules allowed him to flourish more then than today in this regard.

Harden is a product of his era, which has the benefit of the knowledge and techniques of all those who came before them. So it's pretty easy to think, without considering how the league changed over the years, that a more modern player is better just by looking at stats. But that is why stats are only a tool and you need to understand the game and all of the eras to properly analyze them.

I think overall I would take Jordan as a scorer. But it is close. Harden has clearly proven he can score at a volume if called upon, similar to Jordan. Though Harden is not close to Jordan's post-season scoring. Jordan always raised his scoring in the post-season, which I think is somewhat natural for the best players to do since you are facing tougher competition you won't get as many easy shots. It is hard to separate individual success from team success in this regard, but the stats are not kind to Harden in the comparison. I think you might have a better chance of making a case after Harden's career when you can compare their full resumes, but I'm not sure I give him good odds to pass Jordan as a scorer.