ATL: DeMarcus Cousins blows out ACL, pg 89

chonestown · Post #1841 » by **chonestown** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:13 pm

It's not the Hall of Stat Accumulation and Rings. It's the Hall of Fame. As such, Nick Young absolutely belongs imo.

Post #1842 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:19 pm

theFireBlanket wrote:Cousins has nothing on Derrick Rose, who should be a HOF inductee one day. Never propelled his team to win games or even contended to be an MVP.

Rose made one All-NBA team, three All-Star teams, and never made an NBA Finals. Penny Hardaway hasn't made the HOF despite making three All-NBA teams, four All-Star games, and an NBA Finals.

MikeIsGood · Post #1843 » by **MikeIsGood** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:22 pm

Derrick Rose literally had 2.5 productive seasons. One of them of course he was gifted MVP for some reason, so that will play a factor, but let's not pretend like he had some incredible career.

Post #1844 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:25 pm

MikeIsGood wrote:Derrick Rose literally had 2.5 productive seasons. One of them of course he was gifted MVP for some reason, so that will play a factor, but let's not pretend like he had some incredible career.

Right. When I think of that season and Rose's MVP* I think, "Oh yea, that's the year Dwight was the obvious MVP but Narrative."

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #1845 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:48 pm

MikeIsGood wrote:Derrick Rose literally had 2.5 productive seasons. One of them of course he was gifted MVP for some reason, so that will play a factor, but let's not pretend like he had some incredible career.

I thought about this randomly over the summer that if Giannis retired today, would he be a HOFer? Rose is basically that scenario. Giannis is one finals appearance away from punching that ticket IMO

MiltownHawkeye · Post #1846 » by **MiltownHawkeye** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:50 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
MikeIsGood wrote:Derrick Rose literally had 2.5 productive seasons. One of them of course he was gifted MVP for some reason, so that will play a factor, but let's not pretend like he had some incredible career.

I thought about this randomly over the summer that if Giannis retired today, would he be a HOFer? Rose is basically that scenario. Giannis is one finals appearance away from punching that ticket IMO

Maybe he'll clinch his spot in the HoF before the 19-20 season even starts

Ron Swanson · Post #1847 » by **Ron Swanson** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:54 pm

Giannis has now had 3 seasons better than Derrick Rose's "MVP" season so nah, they're not really in the same boat.

Bucksfan28 · Post #1848 » by **Bucksfan28** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:23 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
theFireBlanket wrote:Cousins has nothing on Derrick Rose, who should be a HOF inductee one day. Never propelled his team to win games or even contended to be an MVP.

Rose made one All-NBA team, three All-Star teams, and never made an NBA Finals. Penny Hardaway hasn't made the HOF despite making three All-NBA teams, four All-Star games, and an NBA Finals.

Idk if it's enough to push him over the threshold but winning ROY and MVP are pretty distinguishable factors for Rose imo.

Bucksfan28 · Post #1849 » by **Bucksfan28** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:31 pm

Seriously, check the accolades for inductees.

Imo three ASG's and an all-NBA nod is insufficient w/o a championship or college/international success. It's the individual awards Rose won that justify the discussion, especially the MVP, which I'm sure will be the crux of the decision process.

emunney · Post #1850 » by **emunney** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm

MVPs are HoFers, bell can't be unrung. Giannis is in.

Post #1851 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:50 pm

Bucksfan28 wrote:Seriously, check the accolades for inductees.

Imo three ASG's and an all-NBA nod is insufficient w/o a championship or college/international success. It's the individual awards Rose won that justify the discussion, especially the MVP, which I'm sure will be the crux of the decision process.

How many HOF'rs on that list had less than three years of above average play, didn't contribute internationally, and didn't win anything in college or the pros?

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #1852 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:07 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
Bucksfan28 wrote:Seriously, check the accolades for inductees.

Imo three ASG's and an all-NBA nod is insufficient w/o a championship or college/international success. It's the individual awards Rose won that justify the discussion, especially the MVP, which I'm sure will be the crux of the decision process.

How many HOF'rs on that list had less than three years of above average play, didn't contribute internationally, and didn't win anything in college or the pros?

How many players on the MVP list weren't first ballot hall of famers?
Only non-hall of famers are: Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Bryant, Lebron, Curry, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Rose, Giannis. Only Rose/Giannis aren't full sure hall of famers. Counting ABA, only 40 MVPs in the history of the game. That is some rare air.

Rose is the William Harrison of MVP candidates. Yea, it was brief but so few people reach that level you can't ignore it.

emunney · Post #1853 » by **emunney** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:07 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
Bucksfan28 wrote:Seriously, check the accolades for inductees.

Imo three ASG's and an all-NBA nod is insufficient w/o a championship or college/international success. It's the individual awards Rose won that justify the discussion, especially the MVP, which I'm sure will be the crux of the decision process.

How many HOF'rs on that list had less than three years of above average play, didn't contribute internationally, and didn't win anything in college or the pros?

How many non-HoFers have NBA MVPs?

emunney · Post #1854 » by **emunney** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:10 pm

Also, I realize the discussion is whether these guys are in as of today, but I think the more interesting Rose question is: Is he good again?

Ron Swanson · Post #1855 » by **Ron Swanson** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:12 pm

Yeah, no one's saying that Boogie's resume as it stands is HoF worthy, so I'm not sure why people are bringing up Rose (and Boogie had a longer, more productive prime anyways). It'd be different if Rose had some ridiculous Bill Walton-esque peak before the injuries happened, but obviously he was nowhere near that level of player. Two All-Star years and one of the weakest "MVP" seasons of the modern era doesn't automatically put you in the discussion IMO. If Rose ever gets in the Hall then yeah, the standards have officially become way too low. I always value peak/prime over longevity in these kinds of discussions, but there needs to at least be a baseline longevity factor, i.e. playing at a star level for more than 2-3 years.

WeekapaugGroove · Post #1856 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:14 pm

emunney wrote:Also, I realize the discussion is whether these guys are in as of today, but I think the more interesting Rose question is: Is he good again?

If he has 4-5 more years like last season where he's a useful player it would make that HoF case much clearer. But then there's the off the court stuff that could cloud it but I'm not sure how much the basketball HoF weighs that in. He's a tricky case for sure.

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MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #1857 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:17 pm

emunney wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
Bucksfan28 wrote:Seriously, check the accolades for inductees.

Imo three ASG's and an all-NBA nod is insufficient w/o a championship or college/international success. It's the individual awards Rose won that justify the discussion, especially the MVP, which I'm sure will be the crux of the decision process.

How many HOF'rs on that list had less than three years of above average play, didn't contribute internationally, and didn't win anything in college or the pros?

How many non-HoFers have NBA MVPs?

Rose would be the only one. Baseball though had~30 2x MVPs and based on quickly search only 5 not inducted:: Maris, Bonds, Murphy, Gonzalez, ARod. Though there is obviously 2x the winners.

Post #1858 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:19 pm

Rose is a unique case in that he got an MVP everyone not a Bulls fan considers a sham, and he only played at a high level for a couple years. Your other MVPs were excellent for much longer stretches.

WeekapaugGroove · Post #1859 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:22 pm

MartyConlonOnTheRun wrote:
emunney wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
How many HOF'rs on that list had less than three years of above average play, didn't contribute internationally, and didn't win anything in college or the pros?

How many non-HoFers have NBA MVPs?

Rose would be the only one. Baseball though had~30 2x MVPs and based on quickly search only 5 not inducted:: Maris, Bonds, Murphy, Gonzalez, ARod. Though there is obviously 2x the winners.

You can't really compare the basketball HoF to other pro sports HoFs though. For one it's the only one that's not specific to the pro league and take all 'basketball' into the equation. It's also more like a musium of the games history than the exclusive honor only for the best of the best. They seem to put in anyone they want.

NFL probably has the best HoF. Other than not having Leroy Butler in and screwing some positions they mostly get it right.

Baseball was good but the steroid era messed it all up. I get not rewarding those guys but it's also kind of dumb that a whole era of stars are just treated like that 20+ years never happened.
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emunney · Post #1860 » by **emunney** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:34 pm

You're not going to find any argument from me if you say that Rose *shouldn't* be in the HoF (over Tim Hardaway? Please.), but if you're arguing that he *won't* be in the HoF, I think you're probably wrong.