RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#22 2019-20

[leolozon]

Here is a thought experiment for you. Swap Mitchell and Simmons to each others teams and think about witch team would improve and witch team would regress. I bet that Utah would be the worst offense in the league while the Sixers would improve dramatically.

People tend to forget how offense starved the Jazz were. Its hard being the sole offensive option on a team without any spacing as a 2nd year player. Call him a chucker all you want but the kid is a superstar in the making.

There's absolutely no chance that Utah would be the worst offense in the league either with last year's team or this year's team. I refuse to believe that you really think that and so it seems like you're ready to exaggerate to push your point.

Utah would be better defensively and maybe worst offensively. But I think they would be a better team considering Conley, Bojan and Ingles are all good shooters. A line-up of Simmons, Conley, Bojan, Ingles and Gobert is scaring me a lot more than if you put Mitchell in there.

It's not as if Mitchell made the Jazz a great offense last year. They were average and the team didn't have a bad offensive starting 5 (3 of the other guys had a positive ORPM, Ingles was right up there with Mitchell, 50th vs 46th). Mitchell was great at the end of the year, but he was atrocious in the playoffs... so who knows? If he keeps playing like he played in March and April, he'll probably be better than Simmons.

Firstly i was talking about the last seasons teams. And year 100% Simmons would yank them to the bottom of the offensive standings. He is a 0 on the offensive end. A team with Gobert, Favors, Rubio and Simmons would leave a wall of 4 defenders surrounding the paint.

Face it Simmons is almost useless without the ball and mediocre with it. The only thing he has is being a good defender. He is closer to a worse version of Draymond Green than he is to LeBron James.

I completely disagree with your assessment that Simmons is a 0 on the offensive end and that the only thing he has is being a good defender (great passer, great rebounder and clearly above average at the rim)... I think you are being irrational when you imply that Ben Simmons isn't a good passer... I'll trust ORPM and net rating before I trust someone who makes such a ludicrous statement.

EDIT : If you think a team would start Simmons and Rubio, you don't know much about basketball. Rubio would get traded for anyone who's a decent shooter, so your scenario doesn't even make sense. The Jazz would have started Crowder or O'Neale before Rubio.

[sixerswillrule]

There's absolutely no chance that Utah would be the worst offense in the league either with last year's team or this year's team. I refuse to believe that you really think that and so it seems like you're ready to exaggerate to push your point.

Utah would be better defensively and maybe worst offensively. But I think they would be a better team considering Conley, Bojan and Ingles are all good shooters. A line-up of Simmons, Conley, Bojan, Ingles and Gobert is scaring me a lot more than if you put Mitchell in there.

It's not as if Mitchell made the Jazz a great offense last year. They were average and the team didn't have a bad offensive starting 5 (3 of the other guys had a positive ORPM, Ingles was right up there with Mitchell, 50th vs 46th). Mitchell was great at the end of the year, but he was atrocious in the playoffs... so who knows? If he keeps playing like he played in March and April, he'll probably be better than Simmons.

Firstly i was talking about the last seasons teams. And year 100% Simmons would yank them to the bottom of the offensive standings. He is a 0 on the offensive end. A team with Gobert, Favors, Rubio and Simmons would leave a wall of 4 defenders surrounding the paint.

Face it Simmons is almost useless without the ball and mediocre with it. The only thing he has is being a good defender. He is closer to a worse version of Draymond Green than he is to LeBron James.

I completely disagree with your assessment that Simmons is a 0 on the offensive end and that the only thing he has is being a good defender (great passer, great rebounder and clearly above average at the rim)... I think you are being irrational when you imply that Ben Simmons isn't a good passer... I'll trust ORPM and net rating before I trust someone who makes such a ludicrous statement.

Honestly id take Hernangomez over Simmons right now and i doubt that it will change.

[leolozon]

Firstly i was talking about the last seasons teams. And year 100% Simmons would yank them to the bottom of the offensive standings. He is a 0 on the offensive end. A team with Gobert, Favors, Rubio and Simmons would leave a wall of 4 defenders surrounding the paint.

Face it Simmons is almost useless without the ball and mediocre with it. The only thing he has is being a good defender. He is closer to a worse version of Draymond Green than he is to LeBron James.

I completely disagree with your assessment that Simmons is a 0 on the offensive end and that the only thing he has is being a good defender (great passer, great rebounder and clearly above average at the rim)... I think you are being irrational when you imply that Ben Simmons isn't a good passer... I'll trust ORPM and net rating before I trust someone who makes such a ludicrous statement.

Honestly id take Hernangomez over Simmons right now and i doubt that it will change.

Yeah... I guess I wasted my time. Thanks for showing me.

[mademan]

This experiment has gone of the rails after the 9th place. Simmons a top 25 player? Give me a break. Id rather have Covington than Simmons on my team. Such an overrated player.

I bet you felt really intelligent typing that out.

I bet that in a few years you will claim how no one could see Simmons being a stagnant perennial loser and that he lacks the "will to be great" or some other lame excuse.

Loser? dude was a miracle shot from Kawhi away from the ECF in his 2nd year

[mademan]

Simmons hate on this board is getting real lol

He severely underperformed against the Raptors. Failed to produce when it mattered. This is his third year, and he hasnt added anything new to his game.

Now go check out Mitchell's playoffs. Simmons underperformed against one of the best defenses of all-time. Mitchell completely broke down against a current mid-tier defense in the Rox.

[Colbinii]

Simmons hate on this board is getting real lol

He severely underperformed against the Raptors. Failed to produce when it mattered. This is his third year, and he hasnt added anything new to his game.

Now go check out Mitchell's playoffs. Simmons underperformed against one of the best defenses of all-time. Mitchell completely broke down against a current mid-tier defense in the Rox.

A healthy rockets team last season had arguably the best defense in the league.

[mademan]

He severely underperformed against the Raptors. Failed to produce when it mattered. This is his third year, and he hasnt added anything new to his game.

Now go check out Mitchell's playoffs. Simmons underperformed against one of the best defenses of all-time. Mitchell completely broke down against a current mid-tier defense in the Rox.

A healthy rockets team last season had arguably the best defense in the league.

Based on what?

[SK21209]

Went with Mitchell as I think he's going to have a HUGE year coming off Team USA

[zimpy27]

Went with Mitchell as I think he's going to have a HUGE year coming off Team USA

He will get less of the ball next season though. Wouldn't be surprised if he takes a dip as the Jazz offense is no longer reliant on him with Conley and Bojan coming in. They took 9 shots more per game than the guys leaving, I can see Mitchell dropping from 20 fga to 15-16 fga.

[iggymcfrack]

Here is a thought experiment for you. Swap Mitchell and Simmons to each others teams and think about witch team would improve and witch team would regress. I bet that Utah would be the worst offense in the league while the Sixers would improve dramatically.

People tend to forget how offense starved the Jazz were. Its hard being the sole offensive option on a team without any spacing as a 2nd year player. Call him a chucker all you want but the kid is a superstar in the making.

Jazz had a better EFG% and FT rate with Mitchell on the bench last season than they did when he was on the floor. Only thing he really made a major improvement on was their turnover rate which was 2.2% better when he played. He wasn’t having some huge impact. The idea that the Jazz would be the worst offense in the league without him is absurd even if you didn’t replace him with an elite playmaker in Simmons.

[Catchall]

Okay, this Ben Simmons / Donovan Mitchell rivalry thing is maybe getting a bit too much heat.

Mitchell's probably going to be like 27/5/4 this year though.

[Bhut Jolokia]

Why don’t you make a poll with just Simmons and Mitchell as options since it’s so close?

[Alatan]

Here is a thought experiment for you. Swap Mitchell and Simmons to each others teams and think about witch team would improve and witch team would regress. I bet that Utah would be the worst offense in the league while the Sixers would improve dramatically.

People tend to forget how offense starved the Jazz were. Its hard being the sole offensive option on a team without any spacing as a 2nd year player. Call him a chucker all you want but the kid is a superstar in the making.

Jazz had a better EFG% and FT rate with Mitchell on the bench last season than they did when he was on the floor. Only thing he really made a major improvement on was their turnover rate which was 2.2% better when he played. He wasn’t having some huge impact. The idea that the Jazz would be the worst offense in the league without him is absurd even if you didn’t replace him with an elite playmaker in Simmons.

Il just end this discussion because you people dont understand basketball but just look at box scores and draw conclusions. With your line of thinking if you played 5 centers together that team would average over 60 rebounds a game witch is hilarious.

[Catchall]

Why don't you have Mitchell and Simmons tie for #22 and move on to #24. It doesn't look like either is going to create meaningful separation.

[Colbinii]

Now go check out Mitchell's playoffs. Simmons underperformed against one of the best defenses of all-time. Mitchell completely broke down against a current mid-tier defense in the Rox.

A healthy rockets team last season had arguably the best defense in the league.

Based on what?

Their defensive rating together ranked 7th among all starting lineups.

[mademan]

A healthy rockets team last season had arguably the best defense in the league.

Based on what?

Their defensive rating together ranked 7th among all starting lineups.

Thats far from having an argument for best

[Colbinii]

Based on what?

Their defensive rating together ranked 7th among all starting lineups.

Thats far from having an argument for best

Not really but its not a strong argument. I remember seeing them much lower at one point this season.

[KqWIN]

When you consider the actual strategy employed against both players, it's doesn't seem fair to do a simple heads up comparing the teams they faced. HOU's gameplan against HOU was way different than TOR's plan against Simmons. It's a completely different team context too. Different roles and different surrounding personnel for each player.

[babyjax13]

Here is a thought experiment for you. Swap Mitchell and Simmons to each others teams and think about witch team would improve and witch team would regress. I bet that Utah would be the worst offense in the league while the Sixers would improve dramatically.

People tend to forget how offense starved the Jazz were. Its hard being the sole offensive option on a team without any spacing as a 2nd year player. Call him a chucker all you want but the kid is a superstar in the making.

Jazz had a better EFG% and FT rate with Mitchell on the bench last season than they did when he was on the floor. Only thing he really made a major improvement on was their turnover rate which was 2.2% better when he played. He wasn’t having some huge impact. The idea that the Jazz would be the worst offense in the league without him is absurd even if you didn’t replace him with an elite playmaker in Simmons.

No, it's absolutely not absurd. You need players that can create shots, Mitchell's EFG% being so low is - in part - a symptom of a team without offensive options. This season will be really interesting to watch, I expect a big jump for Mitchell now that there are other scorers on the team.

[iggymcfrack]

Here is a thought experiment for you. Swap Mitchell and Simmons to each others teams and think about witch team would improve and witch team would regress. I bet that Utah would be the worst offense in the league while the Sixers would improve dramatically.

People tend to forget how offense starved the Jazz were. Its hard being the sole offensive option on a team without any spacing as a 2nd year player. Call him a chucker all you want but the kid is a superstar in the making.

Jazz had a better EFG% and FT rate with Mitchell on the bench last season than they did when he was on the floor. Only thing he really made a major improvement on was their turnover rate which was 2.2% better when he played. He wasn’t having some huge impact. The idea that the Jazz would be the worst offense in the league without him is absurd even if you didn’t replace him with an elite playmaker in Simmons.

No, it's absolutely not absurd. You need players that can create shots, Mitchell's EFG% being so low is - in part - a symptom of a team without offensive options. This season will be really interesting to watch, I expect a big jump for Mitchell now that there are other scorers on the team.

I’m not talking about Mitchell’s EFG%. I’m saying the team has a better EFG% when he’s on the bench. Mitchell’s a good young player and I’m sure he’ll develop into a superstar in time, but he hasn’t had a top 30 offensive impact yet, let alone the kind of impact that would turn last year’s Knicks into an average offense.