RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#24 2019-20

[BloodNinja]

Lowry is trash.

[shza]

There are three guys I'm wrestling with here, haven't casted my vote yet.

I probably should have asked this earlier, but does anyone know the targeted return date for Oladipo? I've admittedly overlooked him.

December 1. Too late to get my vote. I’d go with Klay before Dipo.

[KqWIN]

Kyle Lowry will be 33 next year and Mitchell will be 23. Mitchell is killing it with Team USA and will have more spacing with Conley and Bojan. Lowry has been drinking champagne and will have less spacing with Kawhi gone.

Okay? Those are all speculative in nature. While I appreciate the hot take, you really can't back any of this up.

I'm going to start off with direct verbatim quote that I responded to. There seems to be a lot of confusion here. I'll refer back to this.

You'll have to help me out here, are you being serious or not?

I am. The back and forth when person A asks person B if they even watch is adds nothing to the discussion. Person A, isn't addressing the argument, instead they are trying to attack person B. Person B is inevitably going to say yes, Person A's opinion doesn't change. Nothing is furthered in the conversation.

Look at my previous posts. In no way did I ever debate, debunk, or refute this statement. Crowder could not be relied on when it mattered the most to hit those open shots. He was pretty streaky all season long. And Rubio was never that guy who would give you that level of accuracy from distance. I hoped his playmaking would help UTA out more but the ball ended firmly in Mitchell's hands for the most part. Hoping its different with Conley (I want him to win as a low-key Grizzlies fan).

Refer to the quote. You explicitly said that it can't be backed up. Now, you might say that's not debating, debunking, or refuting the statement in any way. I think it is, but I never accused you of doing those things either. I'm responding to your assertion that it cannot be backed up. I believe it can absolutely be backed up. It's very obvious. You have already started making the case for it.

I like what you tried to do there. Dismissing others statements in an effort to paint a picture. that's adorable and very low of you. And yet, I'll bite.

You can call it whatever you want, but this is a legitimate question. Why are you able to dismiss things because they are speculation, an unsubstantiated conclusion, or a take...but then speculate on things yourself?

Where in this statement did I state that Pascal will make a seamless transition into the Kawhi role. I speculate *IF* he does, the spacing will not change. Evidence to back that up includes all of the video leaking online from his runs at Rico Hines. Spicy P is adding that isolation step back jumper. We saw him take a few of them in the finals this year and I was surprised to see it. If he can create that level of separation while keeping the parts of his offense that he already has, it won't be hard to see him move into being the no. 1 option in Toronto. Shall I provide links for you? That to me is worth more than 'reports/speculation coming out of the USA camp'. Show me your evidence. I took time out to watch the game vs Australia game and I just don't see it yet from him. What we can agree on is that he's working hard. Anything above and beyond that is nothing but speculation.

When it comes to reporters/news outlets, remember they will go as far as to spin the narrative as hard as they can to attract readers. Sometimes the narrative just isn't true (see Iverson, Allen .. practice rant and what the Toronto media tried to do to Kyle Lowry after the Derozan trade .. they are pretty bad .. not all of them though) so yes, I am standing firm on my position that these reports are hot takes/speculation until proven otherwise.

Furthering this theme, I don't think speculation is bad. We're projecting the best 25 players of 19-20. It is all speculation. My issue is that you freely make speculation yourself, why is it an issue when others do so. The more evidence that supports that speculation, the better the claim. Pretty simple right?

Obviously, if someone is using development as a reason, they are working under the assumption that said player will develop. They believe in it because of X, Y, and Z. In this case, that means Mitchell's age, his reported success at Team USA camp, and the improved personnel around him. All of those things have backing as to why you would believe that they are 1) true and 2) an indicator for development.

I wonder how you'll react to Mitchell when he turns 33 (will you write him off too?). Should I write any player off at 33? Age is age is a ridiculous statement that doesn't apply to everyone. Mitchell as a ton of potential but that's not enough to unequivocally say he's a better player than Kyle Lowry. To me, he needs to prove that he is better/more reliable than guys like Booker and Derozan first (that is not an insult, both of those players are accomplished but they have the same flaw on the defensive side of the ball).

The same things you are trying to pin on me applies* to you. Throwing stones from inside that glass house of yours really isn't working out today, huh?

You seem upset that I am making leaps on your arguments. I will apply the same questions to you that you've asked to me. Where have I said that I am writing off Kyle Lowry? Early you pressed the question "Since when is it guaranteed that a 23 y/o will be better than a 33 y/o?" Neither of these things came from me and I think anybody actually made these claims.

I thought it was inherently obvious that when someone mentions how two players are 23 and and 33, they're suggesting that the 23 year old is likely to improve and the 33 year old may potentially decline. Apparently it wasn't, my mistake. This is what that means, and not the things you made up. Once again, I'll refer back to quote. I disagree that this point cannot be backed up. The aging is well researched and intuitively obvious. Young players generally get better, older players may decline.

The "magic cookie" analogy clearly went over your head, but that is understandable because it is a dumb reference on my part lol. What I mean by that is that you're asking for an argument that unequivocally states that this player is better than that player. That doesn't exist. Again, this is all speculation at the end of the day. You yourself are speculating that Kyle Lowry will be the better player. As you said, we'll see what happens. But the fun in this whole thing is to have discussion...why do you believe what you believe.

It'd be one thing if you laid out the case for Lowry and believed it was more convincing than the argument for Mitchell. But what you did is throw out legitimate points for Mitchell and dismiss them as things that you cannot back up. That's really the root of my response. Why do you think these things are hot takes that cannot be backed up? They clearly can in my opinion.

[Effigy]

How is Lowry winning this? He and Mitchell are going opposite ways in their careers at this point. Mitchell will be better, Lowry will be worse.

Neither Siakam or Lowry are top 25, but obviously we have a lot of Raptor fans here, lol.

[pootbrah]

D'Angelo Russell

Honestly he deserves some recognition. He completely turned it around last year and was a big reason that the nets made the playoffs

I hadn't even thought of him yet and honestly it's very arguable that the last 3 guys who are gonna be voted in are any better than him.

[Asif16]

How is Lowry winning this? He and Mitchell are going opposite ways in their careers at this point. Mitchell will be better, Lowry will be worse.

Neither Siakam or Lowry are top 25, but obviously we have a lot of Raptor fans here, lol.

Siakam is 100% top 25. A lot of raptor haters here, so I get it lol

[Just_Somebody]

Lowry was tied for 5th on the last poll, and the moment Raps fans get Siakam voted, they all jump on their next player on this list.
Boring.

[iggymcfrack]

Interestingly enough, the poll for #16 is going to end up the only poll I voted for Lowry as there weren't any better options yet. Voted Jrue at #17, Siakam from #18-#23, and then Paul this time around. Well except for that time I didn't want Mitchell and Simmons to tie.

[iggymcfrack]

How is Lowry winning this? He and Mitchell are going opposite ways in their careers at this point. Mitchell will be better, Lowry will be worse.

Neither Siakam or Lowry are top 25, but obviously we have a lot of Raptor fans here, lol.

Probably because Lowry was the 12th best player in the NBA last season while Mitchell was somewhere outside the top 30 so even going opposite directions, there's quite a ways to go.

[mademan]

Are people actually surprised that a guy who's been the leader and best player of a perennial 50 win team (up to last year) for 4 or so years straight and then was the 2nd best player year round of a championship squad is somehow considered top 25?

[ProcessDoctor]

Vucevic.

[Waylanderz]

Asking again... why is Durant still on the poll? Is he even going to play next year? I am not liking that chance. Remove please? If not, I can see him end up winning # 25 just for laughs.

[fbalmeida]

How on earth did Draymond Green end up with the 15th spot?
A fine player and all, but 15th?

I mean... I don't care what your non-scoring talents are. Unless you are the 1-guy on a team that crumbles to a box-and-1 defence... you're not the 15th best player in the league.

[fbalmeida]

Voted sacrilegiously for CJ McCollum.

I'd add OG Anunoby in the next poll. He's breaking out.

[Yallbecrazy]

How is Lowry winning this? He and Mitchell are going opposite ways in their careers at this point. Mitchell will be better, Lowry will be worse.

Neither Siakam or Lowry are top 25, but obviously we have a lot of Raptor fans here, lol.

The gap will be closed this year, but last year the gap was immensely wide. Lowry is still far superior to Mitchell, but will be less so than last year. Lowry should have gone just after Butler, #12

[Duffman100]

How is Lowry winning this? He and Mitchell are going opposite ways in their careers at this point. Mitchell will be better, Lowry will be worse.

Neither Siakam or Lowry are top 25, but obviously we have a lot of Raptor fans here, lol.

winning the title with one top 25 player.

I would have thought the exposure in the playoffs would have opened people's eyes to Siakam but especially Lowry. He ain't flashy, but he does whatever it takes to win.

There's a reason we've won 48+ games every year for the past 6 years. Lowry is that reason.

[stitches]

I nominate the whole Raptors roster so we can vote them in quickly and then return back to something more productive here. One suggestion I would make is that the Raptors forum do their internal voting for places 25 to 37 so we wouldn't waste the time here... since you know... none of us have watched any Raptors games and all...

[otmshank1]

I'd take Mitchell over Lowry 200 out of 100 times, but I'm with whoever pointed out Draymond Green at 15 - talk about over-rated my goodness. The dude is a nice piece but can in no way support his team like the others in the top 20

[iggymcfrack]

I'd take Mitchell over Lowry 200 out of 100 times, but I'm with whoever pointed out Draymond Green at 15 - talk about over-rated my goodness. The dude is a nice piece but can in no way support his team like the others in the top 20

Dray’s the best #2 in the league. He should have gone #12. Mitchell’s like the 35th best #1 and he’d be maybe the 25th best #2. Dray > Lowry >>> Mitchell.

[iggymcfrack]

I nominate the whole Raptors roster so we can vote them in quickly and then return back to something more serious. One suggestion I would make is that the Raptors forum do their internal voting for places 25 to 37 so we wouldn't waste the time here... since you know... none of us have watched any Raptors games and all...

Oh, shut up. Lowry and Siakam both should have easily been top 20. Russ, Kyrie, Blake, Beal, and Walker aren’t even in their league.